[34]Multi-Blogger Component/Module

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severdia
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[34]Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby severdia » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:53 am

1. INTRODUCTION
For years now, blogging has been a popular application and CMSs have struggled to provide simple and non-technical ways to integrate user blogs. Also, competing CMS solutions have blogging functionality built in and Joomla needs this out-of-the-box to remain on par. The ease of setup cannot be stressed enough. It must be just as easy (or easier) to set up than MT or WP.

2. SCOPE
The Multi-Blog component should be simple and ready go upon enabling. With simplicity and ease of use first and foremost, there are four primary sections and a Home page.

1) Home: This is the control panel where the user would jump to the four other sections.

2) Post a New Entry:
    Page for posting a new entry would contain the following elements:
    a) Posting Title
    b) Posting Body- With Joomla HTML editor chosen in config (Add/upload photo through editor), Excerpt & Read More divider (a la Articles in J1.5)
    c) Choose Categories
    d) Default date/Change Date mini-calendar chooser
    e) Allow/Disable Comments for this post checkbox

3) Comments:
    Page for Moderating Comments would contain the following elements:
    a) Comments Moderation Queue/Edit/Delete, Requirements to post
    b) Ban IP/Username/Email, Blacklist

4) Blog Admin/Config:
    Admin page for this specific blog would contain the following elements:
    a) Blog Title & Tagline, # of posts/page
    b) Posts Edit/Delete
    c) Categories New/Edit/Delete/Make Default
    d) Tags
    e) Pingbacks/Trackbacks
    f) Timezone
    g) Blog template

5) Global Admin/Config:
    The Global Admin page would give global control over all live blogs:
    a) Disable/enable blog(s)
    b) Override blog template
    c) Enable/Disable RSS (each blog has its own)
    d) Global disable comments
    e) Create blog/Assign authors
    f) Enable/Disable integrated site search

There are a number of ways to implement this but the three sections (Post, Comment, Admin) need to be available for EACH blog set up.

Also, blog "owners" need to post from the front end, preferably using a shortcut or hidden menu item which takes them to the Post a New Entry page. It's possible that a separate module would be useful showing this link as well as other status items like comments awaiting moderation, etc.

It would be great if bloggers could have their own custom URL like "joe.mydomain.com" or "www.mydomain.com/joe"

3. TECHNICAL IMPLEMENTATION
I think this is open to discussion. The obvious method would to use a Section as a Blog, Categories as Categories within that Blog, and Articles as Posts. Separate tables would be needed for the config, user management & possibly comments.

4. IMPACTS
Unknown.

5. DEPENDENCIES
Due to core changes, this component will likely only work with 1.5+

6. REFERENCES
Any WordPress or MovableType installation is a good point of reference.
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Re: Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby sapoku » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:43 am

hi there..
We are discousing on a diferent thread the posibility of addding comments as a core feature.. it´s my belive that adding that feature will give the basic bloging ability to joomla.
Please read the post, and see what other features are missing so it will become a full bloging feature.

viewtopic.php?f=500&t=265696

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Re: Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby severdia » Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:17 pm

The above white paper is not for commenting functionality alone. While it may be possible to hack together a quasi-blog with a default installation of Joomla, there isn't out-of-the-box blog functionality. The idea is to have a full blog ready to go with a single click upon installation of Joomla, which shouldn't be difficult since the basic content structure already exists. There are millions of bloggers out there who may only initially install Joomla to use as a blogging application and nothing else. Naturally, Joomla isn't just a blogging application, but it's a foot in the door for those people and increasing exposure to Joomla.

Sorry, I disagree that merely adding commenting functionality is enough of a step in this regard. I can install MT or WP in minutes. Installing Joomla and expecting to use it as a blog leaves me and many other users with too many hacks, workarounds, incomplete third-party implementations, etc. to be worth anything. They are "users" not "developers".
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Re: Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby sapoku » Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:06 pm

can you please expand the idea of blogging?
What other features shoud a comment system have to become a blog?
Which of those features can be set as aditional choices (settings) to a comment system?

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Re: Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby LocaLizeR » Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:49 pm

In this post of mine I already pointed at a multi-blogger solution being in alpha phase.
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Re: Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby severdia » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:42 pm

First of all, that's a third party solution...not out-of-the-box.

Secondly, I doubt BLOGman will ever see the light of day... And whether it does or not is irrelevant because there are already third party components which allow blogging in Joomla (MyBlog, Mamblog, etc.). So the issue isn't "Can I find a blogging solution somewhere.." It's more like "I want to start a blog so I think I'll install Joomla..."
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Re: Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby sapoku » Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:47 am

I read your first post, but i still dont see why those features cant be implemented also as a comment module.
That why i asked you before to please be a little bit more explicative.

I´m not a blogger so i dont really understand what are the core features that define a blog.
As far as i have see, if i write an article and registered users can leave comments, it can be considered as a blog.

Soo, my invitation, was for you to see how can we create a mutant comment systen, so it can solve the comment issues, and be the first step as an out of the box "bloggin solution".

If we join efforts, we may be able to write a single white paper that migth solve both issues.

Soo in resume.

Its posible to create a blogging solution, by adding aditional features to a comment system?
If soo, wich features shoud be incorporated?

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Re: Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby severdia » Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:50 am

The abovementioned features go beyond just commenting, therefore calling them all a "comment module" would be too limited in scope and inaccurate. #3 above explains the commenting portion, but there's a lot more to the outline.

It seems to me that you're thinking like a developer or advanced Joomla user. Most of the world doesn't fall into this category. While you (and I, and others) may be able to find a way to set up a blog with Joomla and a simple comment module, the rest of the world will not be able to. It's not a question of just adding the part you think is missing. It's a question of packaging the functionality in a way that's simple and usable for the majority of users. If I want to set up a blog in Joomla, I want it to be as easy as any other application out there—not have to cobble together bits & pieces and sacrifice the other functionality mentioned above. Does that make sense? In my opinion, the above white paper describes the comment module you're interested in as well as a bunch more features....then packages them up in a way that average users will understand.
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Re: Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby Hackwar » Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:20 am

severdia wrote:It's more like "I want to start a blog so I think I'll install Joomla..."

If I wanted to start a blog, I'd take the appropriate tool: A blogging software like wordpress, etc.
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Re: Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby ankoud » Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:21 pm

Hello,
I think this idea is not complete :
Blog like wordpress also have multi-categories and tags, and it's important in a blog structure.
To share my experience : I wanted to make my own website ( a presentation of my services) like a regular website, and a "news section" who would be a blog. After trying several comments components (without finding a good gpl one...), i realised that some posts would be in several categories; So i switched to wordpress...
To use Joomla as a blog, we need at least tags (i think tags can be used as a multi-categories feature) and a good comment system.

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Re: Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby severdia » Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:32 pm

Hackwar wrote:
severdia wrote:It's more like "I want to start a blog so I think I'll install Joomla..."

If I wanted to start a blog, I'd take the appropriate tool: A blogging software like wordpress, etc.


You're not the user demographic I was referring to.

ankoud wrote:Hello,
I think this idea is not complete :
Blog like wordpress also have multi-categories and tags, and it's important in a blog structure.


Re-read #4.
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Re: Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby sapoku » Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:20 pm

I understand what you mean severdia.
Let´s exchange the iea for a while.
What if we Write a whie paper for a blogging core feature, that will allow by settings the following options.
- Full bloging
- Comments only
- Leave as Joomla 1.5

I still dont see the problem of generate a Comment mutant to solve both problems.
Ankoud point out somthing.. multi category as advanced category adminitration its a feature that implicates a new paper to ask the core modification of joomla categories. I´m pretty shure i sow another thread asking for such feature.

Now.. Why do i insist in this.
We need to get a good amount of people to support a white paper so it has a better chance to be implemented.
As far as i had see, there are about 5 white papers that shoud be worked as one. Or at least have comuniaction on the Dev teams.
- Advanced ACL
- Advanced categories manager
- Blogging
- Comments
- Advanced user manager (Something like community builder)

If you see, the creation of any of these features will create an impact on any of the others.
If we manange to provide a fullwhite paper solving this 5 issues, or give 5 white papers that fully integrates one another, i´m more than positive that it will get implemented or they will be imlpemented.

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Re: Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby LocaLizeR » Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:34 pm

Today was published JooBlog, a promising blogging solution for Joomla! 1.5 at the Extensions Directory. I recommend it to your attention :)
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Re: Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby sborsch » Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:36 am

@severdia: You are *absolutely* spot-on with your criteria for a multi-author blogging system.

Having been in the enterprise content management system (CMS) space (at Vignette) and a user of Movable Type, long time blogger using [spam], as well as a user of Wordpress, Drupal and now Joomla (building out a new site with 1.5 right now), I'm yankin' out my hair for one simple reason...

...incorporating blogging either works minimally, is a hack, or requires spending money (e.g., MyBlog).

This must be a core feature. Every business I'm talking with, my own as well as people I help with Internet/Web functionality, "table stakes" to be in today's game means you have to have a blog and maybe, just maybe, a community forum. With a multi-author blog, multiple people within a firm/company/organization can participate in content creation and publishing by something as simple as sending an email to a super-secret-string@emailaddress.com.

What's interesting in my use of Wordpress for another brand new site. http://www.Minnov8.com, is that I'm reading seemingly everywhere people saying, "Wordpress is a great CMS" or "WP is a poor man's content management system" and the like. Why? It's simple to set up, there are a bazillion templates and plugins, and people "get" the page and post metaphor (vs. the separation of presentation from content with display of chunks of stuff all over the place like a CMS provides).

Again, this needs to be a core feature since everyone is blogging, needs to blog, search engines love fresh content (which blogs provide easily), and that is where the bar is set now.

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Re: Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby RoscoHead » Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:54 pm

I disagree with your last comment. It does not need to be a core element. There are many people using Joomla for things other than blogs, and even things other than CMS. If you need something simple to setup, use Wordpress. If you don't, write your own blogging component or wait till someone else does. If Joomla starts including everything "out of the box", it'll end up like MS Word. The whole advantage of the extension system is you only need to install the functionality you need.

And as I mentioned in another post, there's nothing stopping enterprising people from creating Joomla "distributions" that can provide any number of popular combinations of extensions "out of the box". Look at Linux. How many people install it from kernel.org any more? That's the "Linux core". If you make a distribution that fills a need, people will use it. Application programmers write the applications, leaving kernel programmers free to work on the kernel. I think that model works quite well.

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Re: Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby louis.landry » Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:18 pm

I actually think I agree with Ron here. It would seem to me that dropping something useless like.... oh I don't know ... polls, and adding in a commenting system with the necessary extras such as pingbacks / trackbacks and hooking it into com_content would go a long way to solving problems for people and would help Joomla! keep up with the needs of the evolving Web. I don't think Joomla! needs to necessarily become a major blogging platform but to stick our heads in the sand about what people want and use on the Web today seems a bit foolish.

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Re: Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby severdia » Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:32 pm

RoscoHead wrote:If Joomla starts including everything "out of the box", it'll end up like MS Word.


It doesn't need to include everything out-of-the-box, just certain things. And personally, I think a blog is one of those things. Joomla is far from being the bloated crapware MS Word is.

RoscoHead wrote:And as I mentioned in another post, there's nothing stopping enterprising people from creating Joomla "distributions" that can provide any number of popular combinations of extensions "out of the box".


Absolutely correct. But, as Louis states, why would the Joomla Project want to ignore something that is an integral part of the Web?

How many other distributions of Joomla have you seen over the last two years? I've seen one. I think Joomla has been extensible enough that there really hasn't been a need for "enterprising" people" to do such a thing. And if they have, it's not for public distribution. The cross-section of users that would use this functionality would neither seek out one of those distributions, nor even be aware any exist. Then they'd have to deal with applying updates in an unconventional fashion in order not to break something implemented in this other distribution. All far beyond the reach of your average blogger.

The goal of this white paper is not to replace a full blown blogging solution like WP or MT. If power users want to go that route, they will. The purpose is to at least provide a strong solution for most users with a very easy setup and out-of-the-box functionality for Joomla.
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Re: [34]Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby ladymk » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:27 pm

This discussion hasn't been updated for a while. I wonder what the status is - in or out?

I think that if you take a 'poll' of joomla users, you'd probably get an overwhelmingly positive response if the next version at least incorporated comments in the core install. I have tried and tested practically all the comments plug ins and they just don't seem to do the job right - hacking the core and confusing the interface entirely while at the same time not even providing a descent commenting system for the trouble.

As far as any web site is concerned nowadays - the core polls system as a user interactivity feature is quite outdated - while inviting comments or having the option to do so, seems a basic feature web site visitors expect to see...

So, where is the (talented, much appreciated) Joomla team on this one?

Thanks.

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Re: [34]Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby AmyStephen » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:25 pm

ladymk wrote:I think that if you take a 'poll' of joomla users, you'd probably get an overwhelmingly positive response if the next version at least incorporated comments in the core install.Thanks.

Completely agree.

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Re: [34]Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby numbscot » Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:03 pm

Just want to say I would love to see some blogging capabilities added to the core. However my reason for wanting it may be slightly different from other users.

I run a community site and the majority of the users find the J! frontpage create article too complicated. Also without the ability to delete there own articles, or have a quick view of all there past articles so they can be easily edited means the majority of users just don't post articles.

I ran a quick demo on my site letting customers use the default J! create article and then let them use MyBlog for creating articles. 100% of users voted for MyBlog!

I am hopping a blogging component would make the creation and maintenance of articles much easier for non-technical users from the front end.

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Re: [34]Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby drogersetc » Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:55 am

Please forgive me if this is in the wrong section. i am very new at joomla and even newer at this forum
I find it all but impossible to figure out how to post a question on the form -where is the button. it seems I canonly post if I reply to something.

OK
here is my question. I am setting up a joomla 1.0+ site that needs a blog (where public can enter there opinion on a community issue. I see a blog link on the default joomla install but nowhere can I post to the blog.
does the default install only show the postings and not the link to post ?
or
how do i get a useful blog running on a new very simple joomla web site. i have the site up running joomla i just need to get the blog working

thanks so much

David Rogers

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Re: [34]Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby sapoku » Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:00 am

zorry men, but these is not the place for that questions, these is a discussion forum for new vore enhancements.

But it´s nice to see that we are not so wrong about adding blogging capabilities to joomla as a core feature. :)

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Re: [34]Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby founder » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:31 am

One of the most important statements in the original white paper outline has not been subsequently addressed, despite the opern invitation to discuss it:

"3. TECHNICAL IMPLEMENTATION
I think this is open to discussion. The obvious method would to use a Section as a Blog, Categories as Categories within that Blog, and Articles as Posts. Separate tables would be needed for the config, user management & possibly comments."

Question 1: what alternatives are there to this, realistically?
Question 2: if Posts are Articles, what are Comments?

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Re: [34]Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby PufferMedia » Tue May 13, 2008 5:36 pm

As a budding Joomla developer, I am *all* in favor of adding this to the core. I'm actually a little surprised to find that it isn't. I am currently setting up a site that will require several users to keep individual blogs, and have interaction with readers, and I may have to develop on a different platform since I need to move on this rather quickly.

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Re: [34]Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby founder » Tue May 20, 2008 7:38 pm

A) want to repeat:
One of the most important statements in the original white paper outline has not been subsequently addressed, despite the opern invitation to discuss it:

"3. TECHNICAL IMPLEMENTATION
I think this is open to discussion. The obvious method would to use a Section as a Blog, Categories as Categories within that Blog, and Articles as Posts. Separate tables would be needed for the config, user management & possibly comments."

Question 1: what alternatives are there to this, realistically?
Question 2: if Posts are Articles, what are Comments?

B) new:
can those of use who've downloaded the existing version of J just create our own blog -- using nothing but the existing version -- making it a Section, etc?

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Re: [34]Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby severdia » Thu May 22, 2008 4:25 am

founder wrote:Question 1: what alternatives are there to this, realistically?


An alternative is to create a separate content structure for the blog(s).

founder wrote:Question 2: if Posts are Articles, what are Comments?


They would likely require a separate comments table. Another option is to have associated categories. Each Article (or blog posting) would auto-create a Category in, let's say, the Comments Section. This Category would contain all the Articles (or comments) associated with a particular blog posting. Naturally, this would require a kind of "bridge table" to associate the articles. Technically, this could be done right now with the Related Items Module here:

http://extensions.joomla.org/component/ ... Itemid,35/

founder wrote:B) new:
can those of use who've downloaded the existing version of J just create our own blog -- using nothing but the existing version -- making it a Section, etc?


Sure... it's takes a big of hacking and a few extra bits, but it can be done. It doesn't work as easily and user-friendly as something like WordPress, but it somewhat works. This white paper is focused on creating a blogging solution by augmenting existing functionality with a bit of new functionality and a little re-packaging.
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Re: [34]Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby sapoku » Thu May 22, 2008 4:41 pm

Well, its a long time sience my last comment.
I see a lot of implementation options.

The most easy first.
Post are articles.
comments or replyes are also articles, but in a joomla generated categorie called "comments".

now, to keep everiting rigth, a new table is needed to keep the relations.
The table must keep the relations between every comment and article.

With these method, the back end only suffers 1 change, that articles will come with a default category, that must be with out posibilities to be deleted.
The front end, must be designed.. i still see it as comment using the default wysiwyg editor installed.

The hard way.

everything is an article.
But the articles now got a few new fields.
1.- Parent... if parent = 0 then article is Post
else = Comment (Else = index of parent article, or parent post)
To increase future functionallity
2.- Kind of article.... = 0 Post
=1 Comment
= 2Forum Article
= 3 Forum reply

The hard way, gives a lot of aditional functionality for future core enhancements.

Now, the hard way means more changes at the front end. First every category have articles, and every article must have a sub section (Like a sub category) listing the related replys or comments.
At the front end, the same as the easy way.

Now in general terms::

There must be a few aditional options added to joomla config.
First, if comments or blogging or wheteaver you want to callit, its enabled.
Second. If comments enabled. There must be a way to set who can comment (anyone, registered, etc)
Also, if the especific post allow comments.

Well, thats all i can think for now, if i got any other ideas, i´ll be posting.

Ill be waiting for your "comments"

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Re: [34]Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby GPixels » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:04 am

I know this is an old thread as no one has posted anything until now (me), however, as a web designer, I have access to a wide range of clients from the little to the corporate and there are a few things to think about...

1. Blog platforms such as Movable Type and WordPress are now being used on fortune 500 sites as full cms concepts
2. CMS platforms such as Joomla are great for flexible design but falling further behind the blogs

I've recently converted my own site from Joomla 1.5 to Movable Type Pro and it's kicking butt with pings and Google. There are pro's and con's to every platform but here is my view on everything...

As mentioned, WP and MT are now head to head with each other and both are being used on an extensive list of fortune 500 company sites. Just look at Movable Type's website for their client base (users of MT) and you will see. Even WP is being used on some of the CNN sites (the political one for example). Joomla, however, is falling way behind for blogging and needs to be competitive not just with other cms's like Drupal or others, but needs to focus on WP and MT. I cannot speak for everyone but from what I can see, is that the biggest complaint with Joomla users is that they cannot run a proper blog which could result in losing these users to the WP or MT side.

Joomla does need to have a core component from the point of installation that allows a person to create blogs and MUST have the ping, trackbacks, and a built-in commenting system.

I talk to my clients and I've done enough research to understand what the business world wants and if Joomla does not focus on the blogging platform, it'll fall too far behind WP and especially MT...who seem to show up in the corporate world more than Joomla does. I'd like to see that change.

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sapoku
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Re: [34]Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby sapoku » Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:28 am

totally agree!!!
Now how do you see that this solution shoud be implemented?
What features shoud be incorporated?

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GPixels
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Re: [34]Multi-Blogger Component/Module

Postby GPixels » Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:54 pm

If I understand this right, the blogging issue with the future of Joomla has been rejected but no one has really given a short and simple answer as to why?

The Problem

Joomla will fall further back from being able to compete against blogs like WordPress and Movable Type - both of which are pushing into the cms world more and more and they know Joomla is out there. If third party developers want to do a blog component, that is fine but I really believe Joomla should have at least the necessary functions of true blogging.

Concept Solution

1. Sections can act as blogs
2. Categories can act as blog categories, which they do in a sense already
3. Section/Category pinging and trackbacks - this is the competitive side to have
4. Trackbacks - another competitive function to have
5. Comments - lets have a built-in commenting system without having to use 3rd party

I cannot emphasize the importance of at least allowing a Joomla user to have the ability to turn on Pinging, trackbacks, and commenting for their section/category/articles if they want to run a blog. This is critical for the success of Joomla because if you look around the net, people have had to drop Joomla to use WP or MT for at least the pinging ability.

Conclusion

Not asking for a "component" to be integrated, in fact parts of Joomla are already there like Sections (which can act as blogs) and categories. Someone needs to step up to the plate and at the very least, create a "pinging" function for this. Seeing that the true blogging function issue has been rejected by the developers is probably the biggest mistake they could do. I believe this needs to be revisited for reconsideration.

Frustrating to see people wanting this ability but having it rejected. I am working more and more with Movable Type now and because MT has gone to OpenSource, their is a lot of potential there. The arrogance of Joomla could result in tougher competition if they continue to think they are ahead of others...or at least for the long-term.


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