Why should Joomla start to secure its future by developing a native Drag & Drop Page-Builder editor?

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Why should Joomla start to secure its future by developing a native Drag & Drop Page-Builder editor?

Post by Chacapamac » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:22 am

First, I’m a long time Joomla user & fan. For me, Joomla is simply the best CMS today, way in front of WP and others. I know, I have to work with that @#*! from time to time.

Sadly, to ensure the future of Joomla or any other CMS TODAY, you NEED also a great Drag & Drop Page-Builder editor.

Even the usable but crappy WP built is own usable but crappy Drag & Drop Page-Builder editor, why?
Because they didn’t want to leave the future of WP in the hand of third-party developers.
— It is simple, any CMS that cannot pair with a great DDPBE today will simply vanish in history.

========================================================
Two years ago, I understand that I need to move from my trusty old editor to the NEW WAY PRESENT & FUTUR CMS will be edited. Drag & Drop Editors.

• I start deep testing ALL Drag & Drop Editors in the JED

My only 2 necessary criteria for a great Joomla Page Builder Editor was:

1. TOTAL INTEGRATION with the native Joomla system.
(articles manager, articles edition & custom modules edition, media's manager, categories...) and should present and HYPER IMPORTANT should have an IDENTICAL Joomla edition experience both from frontend & backend.
— This is important! Anything else will complicate the overall CMS experience to the detriment of Users/Editor and diminish the power of Joomla itself
— One Native Joomla content management & Edition system to learn
— Should work just like JCE or any other editors in complete tandem with Joomla FIRST (They can add gizmos if they want)
— Remember, we have to beat the competition (WP Gutemberg)


2. Being simple & intuitive to use and at the same time as powerful as a traditional editor like JCE.
— Also IDEALLY made by a Joomla multi developers renown establish business.

Any Page Builder that doesn’t comply with these 2 criteria is simply NOT “Joomla Friendly” and not using the full power of Joomla properly and detrimental to Joomla itself.


========================================================
RESULTS

Amazingly ONLY 3 Editors/Page builders on the JED get my number 1 criteria right???

In order of excellence:
My choice & Number 1: WAS JSN Page Builder from Joomlashine
— IMPORTANT: Today JSN is closing their doors, and their great editor is going to oblivion with them... :eek:

2. NextGen Editorhttp://demo.nextgeneditor.com/free/
— CONS —> Made by a unique developer

3. Page Builder CKhttps://extensions.joomla.org/extension ... uilder-ck/
— CONS —> Made by a unique developer


OTHER MAJORS DRAG & DROP PAGE/BUILDER EDITORS REJECTED :

MENTION to T4 Page Builder but rejected by my number one criteria:
The only last Joomla multi developers renowned established business that got a chance to become THE D&D EDITOR JOOMLA NEED is T4 Page Builder
- BIG PROBLEM — Cannot Edit in frontend ??????

So weird as it is the main way average people will edit their website????
(ALL OTHERS TESTED EDITORS, BUT T4 HAS THAT POSSIBILITY ?????)
https://extensions.joomla.org/extension ... e-builder/

T4 Page Builder told me that THE NEXT VERSION will PROBABLY have the possibility???

• T4 Editor
- No frontend editing????
- Not working in custom Html Modules

- Seem fragile in the code quality department
- rest is ok!


After this point, we fall in DDPBE that are not Joomla friendly at all and impose their way to edit Joomla content or simply bypassing or ignoring the native power of Joomla

• SP Page Builder
- No identical backend editor
- Not Joomla friendly
- and a lot more problems


• Quix Builder
- No identical backend editor
- Not Joomla friendly
- and a lot more problems
- Not Contextual
- Confusing interface


All the others are falling way short some way or another….


==============================================
My advice to Joomla

Is to enter in communication with JOOMLASHINE to see if it will be possible to acquire JSN Page Builder as a great startup point to build the perfect native DDPBE companion for Joomla.

So far, no third-party DDPBE is a real Joomla-friendly editor. We are now late in the game with no real solutions….

Look at Joomlashine, Joomla, do not bet our beloved CMS in the hand of third-party Devs, Please!

Or start from scratch, but I find that risky at this point.
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Re: Why should Joomla start to secure its future by developing a native Drag & Drop Page-Builder editor?

Post by Pavel-ww » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:03 am

Hi.
You have spent a lot of time to create this post, but unfortunately your opinion is very subjective and in my particular opinion in many ways erroneously. Third-party development is something that helps CMS develop. Take a look at the closed CMS not having a large developer community - all of them at the bottom of the rating.

You also miss a very important point. Now, Joomla in its basic configuration allows you to build any ecosystem* you need and create quick sites with excellent performance. Any Page Builder is an extended code base, a large number of DOM elements that are not needed constantly, but must be in the code that Page Builder would work. Any Page Builder is a complex interface built on JavaScript, which will cause conflicts and will strongly limit you in creating an ecosystem. Any Page Builder make performance down.

Refer to WP, where there is a Page Builder on board, is not a criterion. See what WP users write about it and how many WP lost users because of the introduction of this.

Another important factor - many prefer to use coding but not Page Builders. No Page Builder compares with coding, never. Because in the code you do everything as you need, without unnecessary DOM elements.

Your rating of page Builders is subjective. I have in the first place SP Page Builder. What you wrote about it does not correspond to reality. Backend editor was from the first version, friendly to Joomla. Just apparently you encountered the problem of ecosystem.

I tried JSN Page Builder and I didn't like it at all. And the difference of our opinions on this issue is proof that it should not be in Joomla from the box.

My subjective opinion on this issue - Page Builders should remain in the hands of third-party developers. What will allow the Joomla user to have a choice or do not use it at all.
Any things that limit the Joomla versatility should be outside the board.

*ecosystem - choosing extensions not conflicting with each other


Someone else with thoughts about it? :)
Last edited by Pavel-ww on Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Why should Joomla start to secure its future by developing a native Drag & Drop Page-Builder editor?

Post by Chacapamac » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:05 am

Pavel-ww
Third-party development is something that helps CMS develop.

— Absolutely ok with that and Joomla got first class extensions & Devs if you compare to the multitude of poorly written ones on the WP side.

As I point on my first post, I know that WP Gutemberg is less than desirable but it become better everyday and do somewhat the job to facilitate the edition, but we not want to talk about WP here...

Let’s remember that we talk about Content Management System (CMS) where the average users/administrators/editors should easily add or modify their content, without having to know any code.

Long ago, I start to build websites in HTML, after with Joomla 1.5 & WP. Today, I’m not building any new WP website, only Joomla. Only the best for my customers.

In all those years the biggest problem my customers always encounter is the Edition.
I always use JCE Pro as my editor and work hard to create pre-made templates and styles for my customers but they still complaint, make mistakes and finally start to use WP because somebody say to them the same old lies. WP it’s easier to edit blabla, everybody use it, they have more (crappy) extensions... whatever.

This is even becoming worst with the need today for responsive content. Using a traditional editor is becoming simply to difficult for the average website content edition.

In all of my customers, I can count on the fingers of one hand, people assigned to modify websites that knew even basic HTML.
Code is over, Drag & Drop is in and as I say the future of any CMS.

Yes I care that a Drag & Drop Editor produce clean code, but nobody else care, nor the website owner and the people that modify the content. They want simplicity.
Even JCE code become less and less clean when users make mistakes and they are so easy to do with a traditional editor and difficult to repair.
Common, lets be honest, who want to go back to a traditional editor after using a good drag & drop?

Pavel-ww
I have in the first place SP Page Builder. What you wrote about it does not correspond to reality. Backend editor was from the first version, friendly to Joomla.
Yes my friend, this is the reality, what SP Page Builder call an article integration permit ONLY to edit with their full Drag & Drop Editor Builder in an existing menu item, link to an article and only in the FRONTEND of the site on a published article bypassing completely the backend edition capability of Joomla.

Also forget being able to easily build blog articles that need to stay unpublished until completion to be available to the public and that sometimes, are automatically sent to social platform when ready.

On top of that they dont even have the capability to edit Joomla custom modules.
Another great asset of Joomla that bite the dust.

SP Page Builder and all the others are NOT Joomla friendly. ONLY the three I mention here (and maybe the T4 editor if they fix their frontend) act like a traditional editor (like JCE).
These 3 give you ONE type of edition on ALL Joomla content (Article/Custom modules/backend/frontend) and use the normal Joomla Article manager, Joomla categories and do not try to force their ways to Joomla users.

Lets remember that for site owners the facility in editing the content is probably the most important aspect on the evaluation of the CMS that constitute their website.

• The SP Builder article integration video go even as far to let people believe that you cannot really do a full width page or even a complex front-page with simply an article knowing that it is not true, it’s extremely easy, you can even do that with a custom module (oh yeah SP Builder and all the other don’t work with Joomla custom modules).

No more backend editing, no more Article manager, no more custom modules, cannot make blog article easily, They use their own category systems, their own media manager, what else?

At this point, why taking Joomla alltogether when Gutemberg CAN edit with the same drag & drop in frontend, backend and with all normal WP content and blog articles?

This is for that reason that I made this article and I will miss Joomlashine JSN PageBuilder.

Hopefully Joomla or another good developer will save that pearl from oblivion. Myself, I will prefer Joomla.
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Re: Why should Joomla start to secure its future by developing a native Drag & Drop Page-Builder editor?

Post by Jaydot » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:23 am

Who wants to go back to a traditional editor after using a good drag & drop?
Well... me. In fact, I did.
I admire the long and thoughtful reply @Pavel wrote, and I completely agree with him.
The fact that an opinion is widely held is no evidence whatsoever that it is not utterly absurd.
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Re: Why should Joomla start to secure its future by developing a native Drag & Drop Page-Builder editor?

Post by Pavel-ww » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:53 pm

Chacapamac wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:05 am
Yes my friend, this is the reality, what SP Page Builder call an article integration permit ONLY to edit with their full Drag & Drop Editor Builder in an existing menu item, link to an article and only in the FRONTEND of the site on a published article bypassing completely the backend edition capability of Joomla.

Also forget being able to easily build blog articles that need to stay unpublished until completion to be available to the public and that sometimes, are automatically sent to social platform when ready.
It seems that you are not very familiar with SP Page Builder. Here is article backend editor. And all the backend edition capability of Joomla on the place.
1.jpg
SP Page Builder has always had the main part in the backend. Frontеnd editing is an additional opportunity.

Chacapamac wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:05 am
On top of that they dont even have the capability to edit Joomla custom modules.
Another great asset of Joomla that bite the dust.
What is the principal meaning of this? Exists SP Page Builder Module...

But this all is not so important. The bottom line is that our discussion proves the fact that the best is that one of us is used to use. Therefore, there is no better in the objective plan. And let it not be inside Joomla. Because there is an equal number of supporters and opponents :D.

I understand your pain in connection with the closure of Joomlashine. These were your favorite tools. But they are not the best for everyone. Only for you.
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Re: Why should Joomla start to secure its future by developing a native Drag & Drop Page-Builder editor?

Post by Pavel-ww » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:04 pm

Jaydot wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:23 am
Who wants to go back to a traditional editor after using a good drag & drop?
Well... me. In fact, I did.
I admire the long and thoughtful reply @Pavel wrote, and I completely agree with him.
Hi @Jaydot. Thanks for your rating ... I also prefer coding. But unfortunately, customers are mostly far from this. So often we have to use one of the page builders that customers prefer

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Re: Why should Joomla start to secure its future by developing a native Drag & Drop Page-Builder editor?

Post by Chacapamac » Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:01 am

I dont want to waist to much time here as time is precious.

The main idea here is that I still think that Joomla should not count on third party Devs to add a great native editor to Joomla.

I remember Joomfish in Joomla 1.5 that was the only solution for Joomla to be multilingual. What happen on subsequent versions? Joomla came equip with its own multilingual system making Joomla once for all a true international CMS. Even WP is still dependent on extensions to be multilingual.

One thing WP did, is to be sure that they integrate a native true WYSIWYG Drag & Drop editor to their platform to not be dependant on third party and secure their CMS for the future. Everything is about how Easy the content edition is. For the site owner the rest have almost no importance. This is the essence of a real CMS in 2021

Sadly this is what Joomla do by not having their own Editor. They place the future of this CMS in the hands of third party developers. Not a good plan my friends. (Look what happen to Joomlashine)

=========================================================

Even if the Third-party developers will present us with great WYSIWYG Drag & Drop editors (and as my testing show they don't). I will still say that Joomla needs to build its own solution.

=========================================================

As for SP Builder, NO, again this is not an editor that use the full power of Joomla correctly and by doing so, undermine the CMS.

To the comment:
It seems that you are not very familiar with SP Page Builder. Here is article backend editor. And all the backend edition capability of Joomla on the place.
The nice button that say “SP Page Builder” have nothing to do with the great native Joomla ability to manage, create and control Joomla articles (and custom Modules) in the backend. Its merely a switch that bypass completely the backend edition and force you to edit a published article in the frontend. This is not how Joomla work at all.
1.gif

NEXT:
SP Page Builder has always had the main part in the backend. Frontеnd editing is an additional opportunity.
Wow! we are lucky that they also give us the Frontend ability that Joomla have from the time of its creation.
In fact the “main part in the backend” is a complete second system of category, page that bypass most of Joomla power.
Maybe we should rename Joomla for SP Joomla? — We need to be serious here.


Other comment about the SP Module.

On my own comment:
On top of that they dont even have the capability to edit Joomla custom modules.
Another great asset of Joomla that bite the dust.
I get —>
What is the principal meaning of this? Exists SP Page Builder Module...
Yes it exist, but what is the custom backend edition that SP give us?
This is not SP Builder? It's a completely different editor that play with little blocks to create content????
2.gif
Now your average site owner/content author have to learn 2 completely different types of editors to edit the basic content of Joomla an two systems of categories, Pages/articles, 2 medias manager etc, etc, etc.. It make no sens!

This is not what I call “Joomla friendly” and most “Builder” out there show the same “reinventing the wheel“ attitude.

Only the few I name here respect and use Joomla to its full power
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Re: Why should Joomla start to secure its future by developing a native Drag & Drop Page-Builder editor?

Post by Maradona » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:39 am

I prefer @Pavel suggestions, to leave it for 3rd party but also would be nice to have an option other than Tiny MCE in Joomla native. Also agree that it decrease performance.

Just a thought, what if Joomla have it's own official extensions?
Joomla official extensions & Joomla 3rd Party extensions.


Pavel-ww wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:53 pm
It seems that you are not very familiar with SP Page Builder.
This is just not right :laugh:
I follow @Chacapamac post in almost every Joomla page builder and I think he's done a really good research, for free & premium page builder.

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Re: Why should Joomla start to secure its future by developing a native Drag & Drop Page-Builder editor?

Post by Pavel-ww » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:05 am

Chacapamac wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:01 am
Now your average site owner/content author have to learn 2 completely different types of editors to edit the basic content of Joomla an two systems of categories, Pages/articles, 2 medias manager etc, etc, etc.. It make no sens!

This is not what I call “Joomla friendly” and most “Builder” out there show the same “reinventing the wheel“ attitude.

Only the few I name here respect and use Joomla to its full power
Hi @Chacapamac.

Ok, I understood your point of view. But I also work a lot with my clients and know their preferences. Clients want to just add a picture and text using the least complex interface. And at the same time, customers require a quick site.

Of course, the possibilities of JSN PB in the backend editing is impressive. And this also requires considerable effort to study.

But all these features are not needed for the client, and only need for webmaster at the layout creation stage. And then they lie in the attic to the dead cargo and nobody uses them anymore. Therefore, I personally prefer to encode the appearance of the layout via CSS. After that, the client is enough to simply add content through the standard Joomla editor.

Therefore, for me, SP PB is simpler and more flexible. And I use its article editor very rarely, since it is not necessary in most cases.

The same applies to the modules. Just adding HTML in the Joomla Custom Module you get 5 times smaller code than code of any page builder.

Therefore, my opinion has not changed - it should not be in Joomla from the box. Page speed - is now one of the most important requirement of my clients. And for this, they are ready to sacrifice ease of editing that they never use.

And one more important point. You see how Joomla is being developed. This is a purely volunteer project. As long as it remains in this form, I doubt very much that someone is ready to develop it for free for Joomla. And it would require a lot of work to support and update, since technology is rapidly changing.

For example, all logic of working with bootstrap already seems excessive with the arrival of CSS Grid. Transferring this technology will require completely rewrite any Page Builder bootstrap based from scratch.

Therefore, our discussion is just hot air. ;)
Last edited by Pavel-ww on Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:24 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Why should Joomla start to secure its future by developing a native Drag & Drop Page-Builder editor?

Post by Pavel-ww » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:07 am

Maradona wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:39 am
This is just not right :laugh:
I follow @Chacapamac post in almost every Joomla page builder and I think he's done a really good research, for free & premium page builder.
Hi. I already understood it. With great respect for @Chacapamac

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Re: Why should Joomla start to secure its future by developing a native Drag & Drop Page-Builder editor?

Post by AMurray » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:12 am

There is a category for "official joomla extensions" category. Currently there's only three there
.https://extensions.joomla.org/profile/p ... ls/235317/
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Re: Why should Joomla start to secure its future by developing a native Drag & Drop Page-Builder editor?

Post by Chacapamac » Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:51 pm

AMurray wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:12 am
There is a category for "official joomla extensions" category. Currently there's only three there
.https://extensions.joomla.org/profile/p ... ls/235317/
Thank You AMurray, I didn’t knew that...
— I can see a great WYSIWYG Drag & Drop Editor Editor made by Joomla FOR Joomla. That will be so great...

Two important notions:
• The CMS is the body and the edition the hands, none can survive (as a CMS) without each other.
• The edition is mostly the only thing end-users care about, They will flock to the CMS that offers the easier system to do so, regardless of the inner CMS quality.

Joomla already surpasses from far WP by its flexibility in presenting and editing content, what is missing now is an editor that will strengthen these abilities. sadly most of the third-party editors out there are bypassing or doubling the great native Joomla system.

The people behind JSN pageBuilder/editors build they're directly on the Joomla existing system and on top of that made a stable product where I was able to do complex visuals as I did with JCE & Joomla, but giving the end user the great power of a WYSIWYG Drag & Drop Page Builder/Editor.

I talk to JSN and they are not ready yet to let go of their editor and I understand why...

I know building a piece of software like that is complex, I’m not a great coder and it will be impossible for me to build one. I understand that is a tall order but I think Joomla (just like the multi-language system) should keep their options open to add to Joomla the perfect companion for its success.
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Re: Why should Joomla start to secure its future by developing a native Drag & Drop Page-Builder editor?

Post by Chacapamac » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:41 pm

========================================================
NEW RESULTS

ONLY 3 Editors/Page builders on the JED get my number 1 criteria right???

In order of excellence:

1. My new number one - T4 Page Builder from Joomlart
https://extensions.joomla.org/extension ... e-builder/
— Start to be excited here, everything work, Backend/Frontend
— Frontend was a simple cache problem on my side.

2. Page Builder CK
https://extensions.joomla.org/extension ... uilder-ck/
— CONS —> Made by a unique developer
— Move up as I’m still testing it
— More I test and better it is.

3. NextGen Editor
https://extensions.joomla.org/extension/nextgen-editor/
— CONS —> Made by a unique developer


JSN Page Builder from Joomlashine was my number one from far, but Sadly JSN is closing their doors, and their great editor is going to oblivion with them... :eek:
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Re: Why should Joomla start to secure its future by developing a native Drag & Drop Page-Builder editor?

Post by Maradona » Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:11 am

Any idea how to export articles created by their pagebuilder?
As far as I know, they don't have a migration tools even for their own JSN PageBuilder3 to JSN PageBuilder 4.

Is migration possible for articles created from JSN PageBuilder to other page builder?
Or at least to native Joomla editor? :pop

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Re: Why should Joomla start to secure its future by developing a native Drag & Drop Page-Builder editor?

Post by Chacapamac » Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:54 am

Maradona wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:11 am
Any idea how to export articles created by their pagebuilder?
As far as I know, they don't have a migration tools even for their own JSN PageBuilder3 to JSN PageBuilder 4.

Is migration possible for articles created from JSN PageBuilder to other page builder?
Or at least to native Joomla editor? :pop
First do not uninstall JSN PageBuilder yet.

I think that the only way to do that, will be to transfer articles made in JSN PB in native Joomla articles.
If your original JSN PB pages are not to complicate (Accordions, Tabs, slideshows, effects...) you should be able to, at least, rebuild roughly the structure, text, images...

• If you click the onboard Editor (work with JCE) button and choose the code view, you will have the JSN PB article html.
• Just copy in a Native Joomla article, that you can test in frontend.

It will probably not be perfect, but It will probably help a bit....

When you do that, you will see a bunch of inline style and call for different scripts in the html.
I didn’t experiment to much on that, but you can probably use theses inline style in a custom css file that is loading with your template. You can even do that with the scripts the same way (some are inline, some reside in files (you will see the path in the code of the JSN PB)

All theses Pages builders because they are not build by Joomla for Joomla, they have lot of proprietary styles, scripts, classes and libraries. Making the content construct with them really dependant of the editor.

If Joomla decide to make their own, they should use their own onboard libraries that are part of Joomla already, I’m sure you can build a pretty good editor just with that.
And why not let 3rd party developers build plugins for things like Slideshows and other fancy stuff that content need. Joomla can ask certain restrictions to ensure that these plugins really use onboard Joomla librairies first and lean, clean proprietary codes only if really necessary.
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