Code of Conduct - Encouraging people to "sign"?

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brad
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Code of Conduct - Encouraging people to "sign"?

Post by brad » Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:48 pm

At this time the Joomla project has a Code of Conduct: http://docs.joomla.org/Code_of_conduct
However, time and time again people within the community (IMHO) fail to uphold these codes. Such is life.. however.. I was thinking..

Why not create a simple way for ANYONE in the community to "sign" the Code of Conduct to show everyone they intend to uphold these values. Other projects encourage and have such a provision.

I was hoping this might lead to more widespread "community pressure" upon others to abide by this code they have publicly said they would follow..

Silly? Waste of time? Any value?

Hypothetically, would you sign it?
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Re: Code of Conduct - Encouraging people to "sign"?

Post by Robin » Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:09 pm

Hi Brad,

Just saw your tweet about this, interesting topic. I would probably sign it, as a former member of CT, CLT and several working groups I already lived by the CoC. Not sure what the "regular" community members would do though, also interesting to see their response.

On a side not; which other projects encourage this, and in what way do they provision the actual "signing" of such a CoC?

-- Robin

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Re: Code of Conduct - Encouraging people to "sign"?

Post by brad » Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:32 pm

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Re: Code of Conduct - Encouraging people to "sign"?

Post by Tonie » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:06 am

A COC for everybody to me is how you want things to be, but which never will be. If the goal is to try to demonstrate how to communicate around the community fine. If the goal of guidelines like these is to get to people who fail to uphold it, then it's doomed to fail before it has even started.

Not sure if I'd sign it, not really important to me.

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Re: Code of Conduct - Encouraging people to "sign"?

Post by absalom » Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:19 pm

brad wrote:At this time the Joomla project has a Code of Conduct: http://docs.joomla.org/Code_of_conduct
However, time and time again people within the community (IMHO) fail to uphold these codes. Such is life.. however.. I was thinking..

I was hoping this might lead to more widespread "community pressure" upon others to abide by this code they have publicly said they would follow..
Guilt tripping people makes them more recalcitrant. I know you've couched a lot of the language into diplomatic words like "community pressure", but you're going about this the wrong way. I say this as one who has had the CoC enacted against them. I'm willing to speak up about it, and explain where the whole use of the CoC as pistol whip fails.

In order to build a community as a community, people must first belong / be accepted as is. Having a "them" vs "us" divide erodes that sense of belonging. The whole notion of "community pressure" just reinforces the clique as a "them" vs "us" mentality. If there was a community that allowed all to belong (as per the whole "All together as a whole" mantra), peer pressure tactics wouldn't need to be enacted, since people within that community would be working for the common good / commonwealth. This is normative human behaviour. If people feel they are in a safe, secure place, they will express themselves freely and volunteer resources with greater measure. Why ? Because of that feeling of security. Nothing else. Betray that, and people will go rogue.

Added into the mix is the fallibility of humanity. Nobody can account for another's inconsistencies or irrationality. It just happens. People need to have space to fail, and fail gracefully at that. Why ? Because nobody is perfect, not even the leaders within Joomla.

I'm with Tonie on this as most of your language, Brad, has been couched towards enforcement, which just creates the very "them" vs "us" mentality required to erode the very community you say you seek to uphold.
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Re: Code of Conduct - Encouraging people to "sign"?

Post by brad » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:24 pm

My idea, in imitation of Ubuntu's way, was to allow people to voluntarily put their name on a page that says in effect "you can expect this level of behaviour from me". A positive view of things, not a negative one.

Despite what you feel about this Lawrence, it has nothing to do with pistol whipping, or enforcement. You really do need to put the past behind you and move on.
I've done all I personally can to help you, but I can't make up for the grave wrongs you feel "Joomla" has done to you. You'll have to address the issues you have with people you feel perpetrated these wrongs individually.
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Re: Code of Conduct - Encouraging people to "sign"?

Post by aemiller » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:44 pm

I for one did not even know that Joomla had a code of conduct. I read it. I like it. It just seems like good, common sense, community-building behavior.

Would others in the community sign on? I can't speak for others, but it makes sense to me. I would sign.

Will people signing the code increase pressure on others to abide by it? Probably not. There's always someone who wants to be a self-centered hothead. Such is life. But still I see no harm in promoting the idea.

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Re: Code of Conduct - Encouraging people to "sign"?

Post by brad » Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:09 am

aemiller wrote:I for one did not even know that Joomla had a code of conduct.
See, that is what I hope would happen.. more people might become aware of it. ;)
Will people signing the code increase pressure on others to abide by it? Probably not. There's always someone who wants to be a self-centered hothead. Such is life. But still I see no harm in promoting the idea.
I don't think this idea would change the behaviour of 99% of people who would otherwise cause trouble. Changing peoples bad behaviour starts with parents, teachers, education etc etc and not something we're ever going to be able to address as an open source project from my POV.
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Re: Code of Conduct - Encouraging people to "sign"?

Post by absalom » Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:58 pm

brad wrote:Despite what you feel about this Lawrence, it has nothing to do with pistol whipping, or enforcement. You really do need to put the past behind you and move on.
The adjective of a pistol whip is an appropriate allegory in this instance. Why? Because the nature of the language you have used to raise the usage of the CoC for community pressure is just a diplomatic way of potentially saying you want to whiteant and McCarthyism people. You also talk at length about changing people's behaviour. So I can offer insight based on my organisational psychology training and commercial experience in how to make that behaviour change effective, and not a short burst of light that burns out too fast.

The only reason I reference the past is to show how your own language has again undone the very community you say you seek to uphold. Pressure won't build a stable, diverse community that is able to handle criticism and pain from within and without. Neither will trying to make other people change their behaviour when forced.
brad wrote:I've done all I personally can to help you, but I can't make up for the grave wrongs you feel "Joomla" has done to you. You'll have to address the issues you have with people you feel perpetrated these wrongs individually.
Joomla hasn't done grave wrongs to me. People have. People are imperfect and fallible. People such as yourself who seem to believe this post is about the past, when I'm trying to help you see what future you are seeking to create through the words and actions you take. The only reason I reference the past is to show you where you are about to commit the same mistakes. Chalk that up to your fallibility.

Just something to consider in light of how to build community as a community, instead of this silly "community pressure" speil. I know it sounds good from a leadership perspective, but peer pressure is just that. Community pressure is a great selling point i.e "Hey look, we're actually having an effect on those who we percieve as negative" but at the end of the day it's just peer pressure. Peer pressure isn't a good long term education or behaviour modification tool. Personal empowerment for people is a much easier carrot than "community pressure" to fall into step. Because that's what you want at the end of the day.. Behavioural change. But you're going about it the wrong way..
brad wrote:I don't think this idea would change the behaviour of 99% of people who would otherwise cause trouble. Changing peoples bad behaviour starts with parents, teachers, education etc etc and not something we're ever going to be able to address as an open source project from my POV.
Changing people's behaviour isn't that hard if you do it right. Empowerment is the easiest path, and that requires people to be free to express themselves and be treated with enough respect/maturity for them to consciously reign in their own excesses and attempt to mitigate their own fallible nature at times. Joomla, as a community, needs to be a safe place, both to grow and to fail. Fear and peer pressure is a short term, high yield solution that generally backfires in the long term.

So.. you want to change people's behaviour but will you allow people the freedom to be safe inside the community of Joomla to do it?

It also begs the holy hand grenade question of.. Since you feel IYHO that people's behaviour needs to be modified, is there a list of people in mind ?

It's just that most people don't talk about trying to modify another's behaviour without reason or motivation. :-P
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Re: Code of Conduct - Encouraging people to "sign"?

Post by brad » Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:58 am

absalom wrote: It also begs the holy hand grenade question of.. Since you feel IYHO that people's behaviour needs to be modified, is there a list of people in mind ?

It's just that most people don't talk about trying to modify another's behaviour without reason or motivation. :-P
I don't have anyone in mind specifically. I'm not talking about people modifying their behaviour, more just those who do agree with high standards of behaviour putting it out there that they do.
I do also politely disagree about the ease at which people modify their behaviour. It takes time, a long time and in many cases, people just do not change. I base this on my own experiences in life. You're welcome to disagree with me, but it's still not what I was trying to focus on with this random idea of mine.

I just think as a collective we could do a better job of presenting ourselves as a professional group with high standards of behaviour. I liked the way Ubuntu did this.. but.. what works for them may not work for us, I get it.
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Re: Code of Conduct - Encouraging people to "sign"?

Post by absalom » Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:55 am

brad wrote: I don't have anyone in mind specifically.
But you do have certain people in mind, that much is certain. I didn't ask for specifics, I asked if you had a list.. You know, a group of people, a set.. Your non-answer is still an answer, since I posed a question implying plurality and you replied in the singular. Again, a tell. A simple yes/no answer would have sufficed..
brad wrote: I'm not talking about people modifying their behaviour...
Your own words previously suggest otherwise:
brad wrote: I was hoping this might lead to more widespread "community pressure" upon others to abide by this code they have publicly said they would follow
The notion of pressure so people will abide by the code is a massive tell. That is modification of people's behaviour through peer pressure, no less.
brad wrote: I don't think this idea would change the behaviour of 99% of people who would otherwise cause trouble. Changing peoples bad behaviour starts with parents, teachers, education etc etc and not something we're ever going to be able to address as an open source project from my POV.
So an OSS project can't educate ?

So an OSS project can't empower people? Hold on, wasn't that one of the <a href="http://www.joomla.org/about-joomla/the- ... tml">major tenets</a> and values of Joomla? An OSS project should empower people to be free to be themselves in using the tools provided to empower others/clients, right?

So an OSS project can't provide a safe space to collaborate and grow and fail with grace? Thought that was the whole point of the Joomla community being "all together as a whole"? By sharing and collaborating we can still build a good product at the end of the day in spite of people's fallibility.

Think through your own words again in light of these questions. All I've done is highlight where you're missing the values that Joomla is meant to be upholding.
brad wrote: .. more just those who do agree with high standards of behaviour putting it out there that they do.
Like any rules and standards, they can be a source for both good and evil, depending how they are used, and in what ways.
brad wrote: I do also politely disagree about the ease at which people modify their behaviour. It takes time, a long time and in many cases, people just do not change. I base this on my own experiences in life.
It does take time. It depends which path you take (fear or empowerment) as to its success, and unfortunately experientialism isn't the best fallback position to justify that people can't change.
brad wrote: You're welcome to disagree with me, but it's still not what I was trying to focus on with this random idea of mine.
I tend to find nothing is ever random. Most human interaction comes down to cause and effect, and the same applies to feelings (especially when stressors are involved) and actions. Something somewhere must have prompted you to consider it in this fashion, and frame it in the language you have.
brad wrote: I just think as a collective we could do a better job of presenting ourselves as a professional group with high standards of behaviour. I liked the way Ubuntu did this.. but.. what works for them may not work for us, I get it.
We can present better. The dilemma, however, is the difference between presentation/marketing and action.

You can't force people to keep their public persona and actions into line so as to raise the professionalism involved with their work, let alone to abide by an obligated standard. People have to make that choice of their own will.
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