OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

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Google Force Fed Adver via "Install from Web" in Admin

Post by herb200mph » Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:56 pm

Is it true. OSM has unilaterally decided to force Google Ads into the "Install from Web" back-end. This is insane beyond comprehension.

What if the add is a competitor of the company that is using Joomla!? We have clients that would go bonkers as they shot through the roof if their competitor's adverts were shoved in their face by Joomla's back-end.

What money-hungry genius dreamed this one up. Is it to pay for trips and accommodations for OSM folks? Forget it.

The entire world-wide Joomla community should:

1) Oppose this stupid plan with full gusto.
2) Impeach the entire OSM board - but you can't because they elect themselves.

OSM got in bed with Siteground, now they are not making any money from them anymore, so they shove those Google ads at our clients, and we are sure that Google will geo-something into it to target them hard.

NO, HELL NO.

If this was April 1st, I would think this is a joke - but it's neither.
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Reason: Moved the post to the topic http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=575&t=897316 that has the same subject. As per the Forum Rules, changed the case of the Subject that was in ALL UPPERCASE to Mixed Case.
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OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by leolam » Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:57 pm

Since I have not seen another place to put this I post it here. Is OSM completely NUTS?

Are you guys/girls out of your mind?

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... tQhfYc6MoM

We have already a very large decrease of Joomla visitors and users (Google stats) and you want to invade sites with this kind of CRAP? Do we need another FORK (of Joomla) to get rid of these 'Leaders' in OSM who take these kinds of ideas/initiatives? ARE YOU ALL NUTS?

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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by herb200mph » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:01 pm

Think these posts will last long?
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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by leolam » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:16 pm

herb200mph wrote:Think these posts will last long?
Open Source = Freedom of Expression

I would love to respond to Ronni Christiansen on the list but since the commenting and posting is limited to OSM (why is he still able to post on that list not being a Member of OSM any longer?) I am not able to post "in private" as he prefers. Besides that OSM should be accountable..... No cover ups Mr. Christiansen!

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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by herb200mph » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:21 pm

Maybe so, but I've experienced bad stuff in my 7-year history of Joomla, especially since Jansens told them to shove it.
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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by leolam » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:23 pm

herb200mph wrote:Maybe so, but I've experienced bad stuff in my 7-year history of Joomla, especially since Jansens told them to shove it.
No worries I was banned from these forums for similar reasons (NO freedom of expression) already 2 x

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[note @ mods: I am not soliciting for a 3rd time!]
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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by cheesegrits » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:28 pm

Although I agree this could have been handled a lot better, I'd rather see constructive ideas for replacing the lost JED ad revenue. The math is very simple. Joomla is funded in large part by ad revenue from the JED. The Install From Web feature has taken a lot of page views away from the JED. This translates directly into lost revenue.

So perhaps everyone voicing strong opposition to ads in the Install From Web feature could suggest either alternate ways to replace that lost revenue, or suggest which 2016 events they would like to see cut from the budget.

Yes, ads suck. But like it or not that's how Joomla has stayed financially alive for the last decade. We have introduced a cool new feature which is having the side effect of killing that funding. Let's concentrate on how to replace that revenue, rather than going for each other's throats.

There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. :)

-- hugh

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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by chrisjg » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:32 pm

Totally agree. Bad idea all round - as I outlined in my Google Groups post...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... QDRVTR0eGs

Screenshot - in case it gets taken down.
Will_there_be_paid_ads_in_Install_from_Web_on_every_Joomla_website_-_Google_Groups_-_2015-10-30_16.39.43.png
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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by leolam » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:33 pm

cheesegrits wrote:Let's concentrate on how to replace that revenue, rather than going for each other's throats.
I agree with the principle of the need to replace revenues. This though is absolutely a wrong approach. First thing to do is make ABP (Adaware) plug this immediately. So what is the gain for Joomla? Nothing but bad image once again!

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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by herb200mph » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:34 pm

So revert the JED back to what it was and let developers be part of the process. The JED visually sucks anyway, so they could change it and figure out how to earn money there.

They could open an "Extension Store" and let developers list their stuff and get a small %% cut for OSM. I'd pay a quid extra if that's what it takes.
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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by leolam » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:35 pm

I do not agree with your JED-comments. Do not mix up issues please

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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by herb200mph » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:38 pm

Well, that's where they used to make money. Do it again. They're bright folks.
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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by cheesegrits » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:45 pm

herb200mph wrote:So revert the JED back to what it was and let developers be part of the process. The JED visually sucks anyway, so they could change it and figure out how to earn money there.
Perhaps you don't understand the issue. It has nothing to do with what the JED looks like, or "figuring out how to make money there". We know how to make money there, the way everything "free" on the web works. Through ad revenue.

The problem is, you can only make money through the JED if people are visiting it. Now that we have provided a neato nifty keen way of bypassing the JED entirely, doing all your searching and installing from the J! backend, we have removed a huge amount of traffic from the JED. And hence a huge chunk of the ad revenue which funds Joomla.
They could open an "Extension Store" and let developers list their stuff and get a small %% cut for OSM. I'd pay a quid extra if that's what it takes.
It would take a lot more than "a quid" per listed extension to replace ad revenue. So how much would you pay? A hundred?

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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by herb200mph » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:51 pm

So, if they do it, we'll just hack the back-end so the ads won't show, unless they encrypt the files so we can't.

We'll see how loud you beat their drum when you lose a good paying client because they shoved some freaky add at their backend and they bail on Joomla - and you as a provider.

Cheers folks.
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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by leolam » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:56 pm

Just everybody install "Adaware" and they get rid of the crap

Ole OSM Job well done!

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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by cheesegrits » Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:11 pm

Yup, I get it, everyone hates ads.

But I still don't see anyone suggesting either ways of replacing the lost revenue, or which parts of the 2016 funding we should cut. Because that's the choice - either raise more money, or slash the budget.

-- hugh

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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by leolam » Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:17 pm

cheesegrits wrote:Yup, I get it, everyone hates ads.

But I still don't see anyone suggesting either ways of replacing the lost revenue
-- hugh
Talk to OSM for that. Sorry it is not for the community , with the current structure in place. to provide suggestions: they use "community-suggestions' as toilet paper imho

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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by Webdongle » Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:21 pm

A secret deal has already been made
CSe3H8VWUAA_yCI.png large.png
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla- ... 6HByGOBAAJ
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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by cheesegrits » Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:33 pm

leolam wrote:
cheesegrits wrote:Yup, I get it, everyone hates ads.

But I still don't see anyone suggesting either ways of replacing the lost revenue
-- hugh
Talk to OSM for that. Sorry it is not for the community , with the current structure in place. to provide suggestions: they use "community-suggestions' as toilet paper imho

Leo 8)
While there may be some truth in that, my experience is that if you suggest new ways people can make money doing what they do, they typically listen, regardless. Money talks.

So what would be your suggestions, even if you have to write them on toilet paper?

-- hugh

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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by chrisjg » Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:05 pm

Income vs expenditure
If your income drops then you cut your expenditure.
You look at ways to boost income, but don't do it in a way that has a negative effect on those who you rely on (ie the devs who give their time to develop and create joomla). Don't piss off those who build websites and persuade people to use it. Without them the project dies.
A short term gain turns into a long term loss, or collapse.

My advice is to cut expenditure.
Examine the accounts, in public, in detail (the current accounts docs are not detailed enough) - look at where the value comes from and keep doing that, cut the non value adding activities.

I don't know exactly how jed works with commercial extensions - do they pay to be listed? If not, then introduce a listing fee for commercial (non-free) extentions. This allows devs to sell on any portal, or their own site, or in multiple places, with links on jed (just like now)

Alternatively (or at the same time), have a jed store for extensions that can't afford (are bootstrapping) the fee and want to sell - they give a % of each sale to joomla. The agreement being that you only sell via jed store, or it is too open to abuse.

There are 3 ideas (cut outgoings; listing fees; jed store) for the next financial year, as alternatives to the adware push.

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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by alikon » Sat Oct 31, 2015 6:43 am

For
Those of you who do not follow Twitter discussions or the community.joomla channel in Glip
etc,
please read this:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-zL ... edit?pli=1

thx @crystalenka to present "the current situation in as objective a manner as possible"
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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by Webdongle » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:18 am

This is purportedly an initiative of the Capital Committee, but at least two current members of that committee were not aware of it. In addition, there is evidence of other people not on the Capital Committee who were aware of the discussions months in advance.
...
While the “who” doesn’t matter very much, the fact that these discussions and decisions were being made in a very closed environment and not as an official team does not sit well with many people in the community. ‘
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-zL ... edit?pli=1

The who does matter and they should be named and an open investigation be conducted. Their integrity motives and ability to hold their positions should be questioned.

More generally is this just a symptom of the restructuring and perhaps just the 'tip of the iceberg' or an isolated incident ?
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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by TheMuffinMan » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:10 pm

Hi @all,

maybe I am getting a bit too emotional and maybe I should keep quiet, because this post includes a lot of my private life, but I entirely dislike what is going on about the calls for forks or similar drastic measures that would end the entire project. Also a "fork" or again a re-structure from the re-structure (and all that stuff that will surely come on the plate now) won't have any broad success. It's not 2005 any longer, there are enough alternatives + WordPress that people will get in touch with after finding out this project being dead and is participants more fighting against each other instead of harmonically working together.

The only good thing about this "incident" is the openess of the following discussion, that's how it's supposed to be.

And now I am telling you my point of view that will tell that all fractions are terribly wrong, and not just recently, including a simple solution in the end:

It has been a simple - and good - question from the fellow community member who initially posted in the Joomla Leadership Group at Google, namely if the content of that "leak" is right or not. Not more, not less.

What happened since then is a wide range of partially qualified but also unqualified answers to a topic that is far from new. Already in 2012 there were clear numbers and signs from almost all 3rd party devs that the ship is about to sink. Means, Joomla's popularity was already shrinking drastically at that time. More than 3 years ago.

Instead of taking reports about that serious, the entire thing has been played down. Literally played down like everything is fine, like there is no problem and no need to be hysteric (funny enough people who played it down are now in hysteria). And now in the end of 2015 the result forces people to think about how to gain the old revenue back. A totally natural thing, that will even lead to shitty ideas like placing Google Ads into the backend (no offence). At least somebody is thinking about it.

But nothing of this will solve the problem behind it. No Google Ads, no fork, no re-structure of re-structure and also no disharmony between the groups and stakeholders.

I went through a lot of crap in the last years: my ex got sick with schizophrenia and almost poisoned me to death. I had to raise 2 little kids alone by myself, we got kicked out from our house because the owners wanted to move-in themselves and 3 weeks ago my dad almost died from a serious hard attack (+ a gazillion of other book-filling events that I don't want to mention here).

While recovering from all these events, I realized one thing: Joomla was always there for me and my family. It feeds us the same way like I was feeding it. Instead of ending my relationship to Joomla to focus on handling all these shocking moments, I was able to keep my fellow sub-Joomla-community around my little extensions alive and kicking. And believe me, hundreds if not thousands of people would be very happy if they knew that I didn't break down because of "some" trouble.

I expect nothing less from all the others that are somehow involved in the Joomla project. The problems we have with this project are none to nothing and are all solvable. The "leak"-incident and the drop in revenues are the last warning for the project, use the chance, now and show that you can do different.

I don't want to go too deep into why "my" solution for the revenue problem would solve the problem almost instantly, you just need a bit of fantasy and think about it an hour or two:

Implement "templates.joomla.org" by frickin' end of this year and spread the word.

The new JED is surely not the fault, being the only source for the majority of revenue while the project's recognition shrinks is a hard burden. Bringing in a 2nd source, the template directory, based on the just finished JED extension and that problem will be solved. If that happens to run in the first quarter of the next year (where most people are online, looking for templates), it will be a sure hit.

This will buy everybody some time to think why Joomla's popularity and why its revenue _really_ decreases dramatically and _then_ measures shall be taken.

I am still - better said, again - available to help in the template directory and I am surely not the only one.

Regards,
Markus

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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by herb200mph » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:14 pm

Yes, please include a new JED Template Section and work it so it will generate a ongoing revenue stream for the OSM's whatevers.
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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by herb200mph » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:15 pm

Then, too, let it generate some money to pay for programming like they did a year or so ago to get the code base into shape.
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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by leolam » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:12 pm

TheMuffinMan wrote:I realized one thing: Joomla was always there for me and my family. It feeds us the same way like I was feeding it. Instead of ending my relationship to Joomla to focus on handling all these shocking moments, I was able to keep my fellow sub-Joomla-community around my little extensions alive and kicking. And believe me, hundreds if not thousands of people would be very happy if they knew that I didn't break down because of "some" trouble.

I expect nothing less from all the others that are somehow involved in the Joomla project.
Markus, you know we go a long time back together and I know what went on in your private life as a result of our direct (sometimes 'emotional' ) exchanges in our partnership/relationship.

On this one I support you 100%. I could not have expressed myself better! As you are aware we (Global Web Services) feed and provide a way of living to many people thanks to Joomla and we like keeping doing so for years to come!

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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by leolam » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:16 pm

alikon wrote:thx @crystalenka to present "the current situation in as objective a manner as possible"
That is a personal perception Nicola and solidly one expression of your own. We/I do not have to agree with that for sure. (without further commenting on the respective post)

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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by deleted user » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:42 pm

Webdongle wrote:The who does matter and they should be named and an open investigation be conducted. Their integrity motives and ability to hold their positions should be questioned.
The who only matters if you are aiming to crucify those individuals. Unfortunately, I'm aiming to crucify because several folks have displayed a pattern of building an environment where they cannot be trusted. You're going to have to look for where I started dropping names, I'm not posting that here.

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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by Webdongle » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:28 pm

mbabker wrote:...
The who only matters if you are aiming to crucify those individuals. ...
It matters as a matter of efficiency and as a matter of trust. If the individual(s) concerned were to publicly acknowledge they were incorrect in what they did and the way they went about it ... then that would go a long way to show they can be trusted in the future. But if the veil of secrecy is used then that will just fester more suspicion.

mbabker wrote:several folks have displayed a pattern of building an environment where they cannot be trusted. You're going to have to look for where I started dropping names, I'm not posting that here.
But this forum is the communication channel most used by Joomla users.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
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Re: OSM:: Contract for paid ads in Install from Web

Post by leolam » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:59 pm

mbabker wrote:You're going to have to look for where I started dropping names, I'm not posting that here.
That is very obvious and clear. I am game

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