Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by mandville » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:29 pm

I can think of only one out of 15 ish sites i maintain (besides vel) that publishes content to a twitter and that uses " deliver it " . So in the other cases it would add bloat.
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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by mmx » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:53 pm

Déjà Vu!

Your audience of developers and site builders see Joomla as an architecture for building something else. JED is testimony to this.

End users see it as a product. Affordable products with more bells and whistles incorporated become more popular than competing products.

No two end users are going to have the same needs and wants. You cannot please everyone.

That said, appealing to the needs of multiple user audiences is a pain in the neck.

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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by darb » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:55 am

No two end users are going to have the same needs and wants. You cannot please everyone.

That said, appealing to the needs of multiple user audiences is a pain in the neck.
I think this approach thinking is not correct and is strategically not good for Joomla long-term.

Sure you can not please everyone but you can and should please the ones you target with your product. And you should understand that market.Thats your customer(s). If you don't have customers you don't have any necessity to exist comparing to other product/solutions competitors. You normally only use one CMS system per capita ie user/company.

Sure there are at least two end users :D that have the similar same needs, wants and use of similar basic functions of Joomla for a blog and with autposting dont you think so? And I am sure you can correlate segmentation analysis to see how that statistics really are true or not.

Though Joomla is mainly a technical developer driven project where the message is "The Flexible Platform Empowering Website Creators" whereas Wordpress message is: Meet WordPress

WordPress is open source software you can use to create a beautiful website, blog, or app.


Think. What works best? What market is Joomla in for?
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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by darb » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:59 am

When are we going to set up templates/themes in JED? https://wordpress.org/themes/commercial/
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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by Webdongle » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:09 am

darb wrote:
No two end users are going to have the same needs and wants. You cannot please everyone.

That said, appealing to the needs of multiple user audiences is a pain in the neck.
I think this approach thinking is not correct and is strategically not good for Joomla long-term.

Sure you can not please everyone but you can and should please the ones you target with your product. ...

Sure there are at least two end users :D that have the similar same needs, wants and use of similar basic functions of Joomla for a blog and with autposting dont you think so? ...
No I don't because there are more than two types of end user. There are not just those who want a blogging site or social media integration. There are users who want a hobby site or a family site or local society site or a site specific to a particular union. None of those would particularly want or need social media integration.

Even sites (where it could be argued that social media integration was a shared need) would require it in a different manner.

For example a blogger might want a specific thread shared but another blogging site might need all the threads shared. Whereas an e-commerce site might want just a link to their brand while another e-commerce site might want to link each item individually with an image.

So you see not only are there sites that don't need sites but even the sites that do will require a different approach. Added to that there are frequently new social media platforms being created.

@darb
Your problem is that you are only thinking of sites that would need social media integration. Therefore you are basing your argument on the false premise that social media integration is a common factor in all sites.
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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by darb » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:03 pm

No I don't because there are more than two types of end user. There are not just those who want a blogging site or social media integration. There are users who want a hobby site or a family site or local society site or a site specific to a particular union. None of those would particularly want or need social media integration.
I agree about that but why should this x % of end user dictate the benefits for the majority of xx % end users where its a function that could be voluntarily used or not of by that x % minority? No one will force them to use this function.
Even sites (where it could be argued that social media integration was a shared need) would require it in a different manner.
Here I really dont know what you mean by "different manner". Please elaborate and explain what you mean? Is this your examples below?
For example a blogger might want a specific thread shared but another blogging site might need all the threads shared. Whereas an e-commerce site might want just a link to their brand while another e-commerce site might want to link each item individually with an image.

So you see not only are there sites that don't need sites but even the sites that do will require a different approach. Added to that there are frequently new social media platforms being created.
Yes thats obvious and thats why you need a flexible social autoposting/social sharing system that could be managed with different use of systematic modelling of common rules, triggers and actions to deliver a better competitive solutions than other of the 100s of other CMSs out there. I talk with Mark with EasyBlog over the years to improve EB and its getting better and better in this area too but this is something that could be implemented in the core of Joomla for the benefit of a l l Joomla components too.
@darb
Your problem is that you are only thinking of sites that would need social media integration. Therefore you are basing your argument on the false premise that social media integration is a common factor in all sites.
I didnt say and didnt mean "that social media integration is a common factor in all sites".

What I want to argue about is that social media integration/sharing/auto posting with common social media platforms like Facebook, Twitter and Linkedin is important for many end users to work well and should be discussed if this is a priority to implement into Joomla core or not. And the understanding that SEO is part of the marketing to get a better SERP. A n d that social media integration/sharing/auto posting improve your SERP.

Or does Joomla see itself just as a competitor to Symfony, Codeignitor, Laravel, Cakephp,Ruby etc in the future?
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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by darb » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:13 pm

darb wrote:When are we going to set up templates/themes in JED? https://wordpress.org/themes/commercial
/
The most searched key words for Joomla and Wordpress is:

template Joomla

themes Wordpress


https://trends.google.com/trends/explor ... ,Wordpress

So what would you do if you were the owner of Joomla in this situation and know what key words and what the users want to know more about for selling Joomla?
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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by mbabker » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:18 pm

You operate under the false pretense that the only social media platforms that need to be supported are those with high usage in certain parts of the world. For us to introduce this support in core, it could not only favorably support those platforms, we would have to make reasonable efforts to either support lesser known platforms or have an API that easily allows adding that support, and then we on the core teams go through yet another round of "why Facebook and not X" debates every six months (and yes, there are people suggesting 2-3 times a year that every plugin and API that integrates a third party service in the core package be removed).

You operate under the false pretense that social media sharing is a requirement for all site builds. The reality is most every client in my company's portfolio would not use this functionality if included in Joomla, we would not use this functionality for the core project itself with our current marketing and social media strategies, and I can with certainty that my company's clients do not use this functionality in WordPress; their social media is managed in ways in which the automated sharing tools you suggest are not suitable for their strategies. Which means at best the only useful aspect of a social sharing suite of tools for them might be the inclusion of the "like/tweet/share" style buttons you see on frontend content to help users easily (re-)share content.

Joomla does not have to do everything everyone wants out-of-the-box. That is why the extension ecosystem exists. It enables you, the site integrator/builder/user to add the resources you need to make the site you want without having to know how to write all the code yourself.
So long and thanks for all the fish.

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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by darb » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:35 pm

You operate under the false pretense that social media sharing is a requirement for all site builds.
I understand your argument Mike but....

No I am not bcs I have never said "that social media sharing is a requirement for all site builds."

You operating under false pretense of putting words in my mouth that I have never said. I know understand more of what Joomla have become since I first join this community and after 11 years got this feeling - who cares anymore.
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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by Webdongle » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:03 pm

darb wrote:
No I don't because there are more than two types of end user. There are not just those who want a blogging site or social media integration. There are users who want a hobby site or a family site or local society site or a site specific to a particular union. None of those would particularly want or need social media integration.
I agree about that but why should this x % of end user dictate the benefits for the majority of xx % end users where its a function that could be voluntarily used or not of by that x % minority? No one will force them to use this function....
You are assuming that the majority of end users want social media integration. Even if that was the case they are not being dictated to.





darb wrote:...
Even sites (where it could be argued that social media integration was a shared need) would require it in a different manner.
Here I really dont know what you mean by "different manner". Please elaborate and explain what you mean? ...
The way in which they would be implemented in a site.






darb wrote:...
For example a blogger might want a specific thread shared but another blogging site might need all the threads shared. Whereas an e-commerce site might want just a link to their brand while another e-commerce site might want to link each item individually with an image.

So you see not only are there sites that don't need sites but even the sites that do will require a different approach. Added to that there are frequently new social media platforms being created.
Yes thats obvious and thats why you need a flexible social autoposting/social sharing system that could be managed with different use of systematic modelling of common rules, triggers ...
...
Joomla is flexible that is why there are many extensions available.


Because you are basing your logic on a false premise you are jumping to conclusions that are not realistic. And you are failing to see that what you are proposing limits Joomla and how users can use it.
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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by mmx » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:20 pm

Regarding my pain in the neck comment, the web is littered with thousands of projects that were popular at one time but lost their user audience because of the constant battle between keeping an applications framework lean and mean and adding bells and whistles that add glut to the framework. In a situation like that, a core team is placed in an awkward situation where the needs of their developer audience interferes with the needs of the user audience.

Years ago, the core team made the decision to remove the glut from the framework and let the third-party industry build extensions. This agenda has been followed for many years and I still believe it was the right move.

Admit it, you want a feature and you can't find a free open source solution and do not want to buy into a third-party developed product. Instead you want the core team to take key personnel away from their current objectives and goals to satisfy your whims. Joomla is not Wordpress and Wordpress is not Joomla. If Wordpress offers a better solution for your needs, so be it. I've taken a close look at the Wordpress code. Code-for-code, I will take the Joomla route any day over using Wordpress.

I'm accustomed to using software myself based on the MIT or BSD license. In my usual world just about every library, module and plugin is freely downloadable from Github using composer. About a month ago, one of my old Mambo customers called me up about rebuilding three sites that I put together in 2004. The customer wanted to use Joomla. Over the past month I have spent several thousand dollars purchasing licenses for packages and template clubs to build the three sites. This investment was culture shock for me. However, the customer said do it. Once my Joomla projects are done, I get to go back to my usual world.

Joomla is a true open source project. It is offered for free to anyone who wants to use it. Ten to fifteen years ago during the days of Mambo, most third-party applications were also free and depended on donations to support development. The donation model did not work and most developers turned to charging users for use of their products in order to make a living. I don't blame them--they need to feed themselves and provide their families with a good life.

However, the commercialization of the Joomla third-party development projects may have adversely effected Joomla! market share. The user audience seems to be twindling. One possible cause might be the expense of purchasing the packages necessary to build a site. I'm not sure about this, but it's something to think about.

I understand your needs, but think the two projects Adhere to different development philosophies.

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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by sozzled » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:12 pm

mmx wrote:... the web is littered with thousands of projects that were popular at one time but lost their user audience because of the constant battle between keeping an applications framework lean and mean and adding bells and whistles that add glut to the framework.
I agree.

Some people may label me a dinosaur because I eschew social networking platforms such as Facebook and whatever else happens to be the flavour-of-the-month although I do view some places as important from a marketing perspective. Therefore, I have a "token interest" (one might say) as far as the echo-chamber-of-opinion-dohickey, tweeting-thingie and that public document-repository-watchamacallit are concerned.

I wonder how many people remember MSN Groups and its "successor" MySpaces? Do people recall how, in some futuristic movie settings, the producers predicted the shape of things to come? The following image taken from the 2005 sci-fi movie The Island:
TheIsland_MSN_Search_01.jpg
I remember (over a decade ago) having discussions within an online community about the desirability of migrating from one proprietary platform to a different one and, because most members of that community were not technically-minded, most people wanted to move towards a platform that was popular and "stable", it was very difficult to convince people of my impressions that Joomla offered the a solid, lasting solution without being tied to terms and conditions of use that we had no control over.

So, while it might be interesting to ponder the question about whether Joomla should be geared towards certain usage models (remember Molajo?), I believe that the Joomla CMS functionality should be application-neutral. I don't have a problem if the framework developers engineer ready-to-use APIs to interoperate with the popular "other things" that people may use, to the extent that framework developers have the interest in such things and the skill to build those interfaces, but I don't think it should be mandated within the CMS that such functionality is distributed in some [nascent] state (cf LDAP authentication as an example).

Not everyone needs these things: there are choices available outside the CMS "core".
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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by mmx » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:23 pm

I look at a Content Management System as a vertical application built on top of a horizontal API, the framework. The framework can support any number of vertical applications, usually in combination with other vertical applications. The framework is the architectural foundation and establishes a model for building those vertical applications. Third party developers follow conventions and guidelines set by the framework core developers either through documentation, code comments or policy. End users can mix and match vertical applications to build something to achieve their needs and wants.

The framework itself can be extended by building interfaces, classes, and entire libraries. Want to support e-commerce at the framework level, build a library for it and allow vertical application developers to extend it and build their own e-commerce applications.

The horizontal API and vertical applications built upon it are like apples and oranges. The basic objectives and goals are focused on different motives. That's why I hate threads like this. End users generally don't understand the differences. The framework team has their resonsibilites and anyone who is building on top of it has their responsibilites. In this particular case, the end user is barking up the wrong tree.

Social networking is a vertical application. If you cannot afford to buy into a social networking platform, do what we do in my normal world and build your own. If you don't have the development skills, try to find others with mutual needs and the required skills, than build it. Go to github, open an account, ask for help on the forums and build it.

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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by darb » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:21 am

I have a question to the moderators of this topic/forum.

Why did this topic get deleted?

"In WP social media sharing everything works very well and looks good.
In Joomla you will not find anything that works well and is free. I am not even going to try out something that cost when there is tools that are free and works.
For example the problems with Joomla and social media:
1. You can't share a Joomla article in Facebook, with the image to the article coming along. Bugs and errors.
2. You can't find an extension that shares articles properly to Twitter. Only thing that works is Addtoany, but there is some issues with Firefox that makes it dissapear because of Adblock/ghostery
3. Images from Instagram and Twitter can't be placed in Joomla articles. In WP it is easy and works well.

I mean, if you want to market your page well, in social media, in Google, Bing; do not use Joomla. Use WP. Joomla is far behind WP in social media. And this is a very important point. Because what is the use of having a website if nobody can see it and it is slow.

WP is the winner."

This is the link and its removed and It would be good to know why this topic was removed??

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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by Webdongle » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:08 am

@darb
  1. Most of your reasons are valid but only as reasons why common features should be included in Joomla but they are not proof that social media interaction is a common feature.
  2. Everything else that you type is just based on your false premise that social media interaction is a common feature.
  3. In order for your reasons to apply to social media to be part of Joomla core then you first need to establish that social media interaction is a common feature of websites.
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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by mmx » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:50 am

Darb... foobla's Social Submit seems to be a product operating in reverse of their obGrabber product. ObGrabber can conceivably import any kind of content to Joomla. Social Submit works in reverse converting Joomla content to formats suitable for Facebook, Twitter and other social networks. Yes it costs but it is a possible solution.

The paid versus free argument should probably be a separate topic launched in relation with Joomla gaining better market share. Lots of controversy I would expect.

Webdongle... the framework would become increasingly more powerful with a similar api integrated into the framework at the core level. Lots of work though. The piped approach is not new. We've seen it used in Java frameworks in the past. Unix/Linux support pipes in their core.

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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by sozzled » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:31 am

I have a question: what has all of this discussion about whether other CMS platforms seem to "integrate" nicely with various à la mode social media platforms—whether they export or import content to those platforms—got to do with the original question?

Unless I am very much mistaken, the original question as posited in the subject is "Why is there no integrated auto social post in Joomla?" I assume this means "why" is there no inbuilt capability within Joomla to "automatically" export content—content created within Joomla—to brand X, brand Y and/or brand Z social media networks? I think the answer to the question about why there is no such inbuilt capability within Joomla was fairly succinctly addressed by @mbabker several posts ago in this topic.

The rest of the discussion has (a) largely ignored the fundamental question, (b) digressed into areas about third-party products that may extend Joomla into the social media space, or (c) bloviated about God-knows-what! If people accept the premise that Joomla doesn't have inbuilt capability to integrate within those social media spheres of influence then there's really no reason to continue with this topic. If people don't accept that basic premise—that Joomla lacks the inbuilt capability and that this lack of capability is considered to be an egregious sin—then they're entitled to their opinion.

But I don't want to see the proliferation of justification-by-comparison with how to crack the acorn any further because I would say that the everyday punter is not interested.

Put this another way: when I want to tweet I use Twitter; likewise, when I want to use Facebook—perish the thought—I'll login to that and if I ever go near something else, then I'll use the [pick-a-social-media-network] app for that thing, too. I'm not interested in pushing everything I write on to every social media network that I belong to; God help me if I did! I carefully choose what I share and I choose to not share what I don't want to share. If people want to flood the social mediasphere with every random thought that they write on their Joomla websites then, in my opinion, they don't discriminate between what they share (at best) or they're bone lazy (at worst). Obviously, all generalisations are false ... including this one!
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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by darb » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:06 pm

If you check other CMS example Umbraco there is a tab "Social Media" where you easy to insert your Social. Its even the first tab there so other CMS tools thinks its important

https://our.umbraco.org/projects/websit ... -gallery-2
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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by sozzled » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:17 pm

darb wrote:... so other CMS tools thinks its important.
"One swallow does not a summer make."

If you prefer, use Umbraco—never heard of it and I don't wish to learn about it—if it's so good.
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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by Gany » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:13 am

Darb, do you know what extensions are? If you need social media, why don't you use an extension?

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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by MasonFisher47 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:10 pm

I like using my own choice of modules for posting to social sites. Gives you more flexibility. There are some pretty good ones out there. But I could see how having the function built in would save quite a bit of time.

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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by Gany » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:40 pm

I don't know why people complain about this. There is no CMS I know of with that kind of feature under the hood. None at all. You have to use third party extensions for that. It has been explained here ad nauseam why that is. I wish I could print money with Joomla, but that is not likely going to happen. Can a moderator close this thread? The poor horsie is no more. :(

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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by mandville » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:19 am

Gany wrote:The poor horsie is no more. :(
is it called unibond or findus?

totally agreed that for the beneift of later readers,
mandville wrote:To clarify my response. Wordpress core from wordpress.org does not have the "connect" plugin. It is a service provided on wordpress owned hosting service.
Gany wrote:You already found out that autopost to social isn't included in a downloaded WP version. It's only included (no idea, I don't work with it) in the online version at their wp hosted site. That's comparing apples with pineapples. I had to do it on a site, and it was - entirely new to me - not something easy to do.
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sozzled
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Re: Why there is no integrated auto social post in Joomla like Wordpress?

Post by sozzled » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:26 am

Yeah, let's not flog a dead horse. ;)

When you really think about it, social media platforms like Facebook are banned/blocked in several countries (e.g. China, North Korea and Iran); Twitter is blocked in Turkey, Iran, Vietnam, Pakistan, North Korea and Eritrea. The list of countries that block [youtube] is just as large. So, given that one-third of the world's population is unable to access many of the social media platforms accessible to everyone else, the idea that Joomla should integrate (or provide some kind of "autoposting" facility) to these things is just absurd.

/end :pop
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