There's a whole new process for suggesting new ideas/features in J!

Do you have an idea for the Joomla community that you can help implement? Discuss in here.
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sozzled
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There's a whole new process for suggesting new ideas/features in J!

Post by sozzled » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:57 pm

There's a whole new process involved for people who have ideas or to suggest new features for the J! CMS and this process is outlined in https://magazine.joomla.org/all-issues/ ... al-process. Because there's a new process for suggesting new ideas, it is unlikely that this forum category will be required or looked at by developers unless those ideas a put forward in the form as I've just mentioned.
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toivo
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Re: There's a whole new process for suggesting new ideas/features in J!

Post by toivo » Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:09 pm

This is about Requests for Comments (RfC), as mentioned in the article. The platform suggestions include "pull requests, comments on GitHub, the mailing list, IRC, and similar tools" first and then also "a dedicated GitHub repository, mailing list, forum area".

This Joomla! Ideas Forum could of course be used, especially if someone does not have a GitHub account. The GitHub Discussions is meant for core and code related topics, as spelled out in the Welcome message three weeks ago.
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Re: There's a whole new process for suggesting new ideas/features in J!

Post by sozzled » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:35 pm

Thanks for your reply, Toivo. It wasn't clear to me from the magazine article that the RfC—request for comments—procedure was intended as a replacement for the Joomla! Ideas forum category. The article states, with emphasis added by me,
Whoever is interested in the feature can participate in the discussion. It doesn't matter where the discussion occurs, as long as access is open to those interested. This includes an informal discussion on official Joomla discussion media about whether the idea makes sense and is within the scope of Joomla's goals or not.
So, while the Joomla! Ideas forum could be a place the article goes on to say that discussions will happen within the confines working parties that are established to investigate and decide upon each new proposals:
The Production Department Coordinator will ensure that the Working Group is provided with the necessary resources to work on the specification, such as a dedicated GitHub repository, mailing list, forum area, and similar tools.
It's really a question of whom the working party allows to participate in those discussions.

So, from that point, it may be possible to use this forum as a place for discussions but it seems quite unlikely that it would happen, wouldn't you agree?

In the ten years or so that I have been a member of this forum, the class distinction between ordinary people, developers and OSM has grown wider because less actual problem-solving is undertaken at the J! forum and more problem-solving activity occurs elsewhere. I think it's important that people should be aware that this forum is not really an official organ of the J! project. The J! forum exists as a remnant of past era—and era when it was used by OSM and by developers to discuss future plans—as a place where the rest of us struggle to make sense of how things operate. I have not fully come to terms with how the J! project operates ... even after all of this time.

The Joomla! Forum™ is a bit like the frontend of a J! website. It's what the public sees. The public, for the most part, is unaware of what happens in the "backend". I've offered to help with "backend" aspects on numerous occasions: I've written emails, contributed to the J! documentation and to the J! magazine (but you won't find me credited with any articles I've written, however). I haven't had any success in getting that foot in the door in the backend. It's not a case of not having tried ... and it's disappointing.

As you say, when one reads https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/discussions/31704, the opening paragraph may come as a surprise to some people:
We are using GitHub discussions as a place to connect with other members of the Joomla! community. In discussion we want to focus on core and code related topics. If you have a question on how to do something with Joomla! [The Joomla! Forum™] is the best place to ask. But if you have an idea on how we can do something different/better you [are] welcome to share your ideas in the GitHub discussions.

If you have found a bug, please open an issue [on the Issue Tracker].
As we plainly see, the communications methods between all members of the community is splintering in different directions with no single unifying mechanism over all of it. That's not a complaint, by the way, it's just one ordinary member's observation of the way things appear.

If someone finds the spark of an idea from what I've written, either to write about it here (on The Joomla! Forum™) or as an article for the Joomla! Community Magazine or use GitHub discussions, I would be pleased to read it.
“If you think I’m wrong then say, ‘I think you’re wrong.’ If you say ‘You’re wrong!’, how do you know?” :)
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Re: There's a whole new process for suggesting new ideas/features in J!

Post by sozzled » Sat May 22, 2021 9:30 pm

toivo wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:09 pm
This Joomla! Ideas Forum could of course be used, especially if someone does not have a GitHub account. The GitHub Discussions is meant for core and code related topics, as spelled out in the Welcome message three weeks ago.
It's a problem, isn't it, that this "ideas" forum isn't used by the developers; for that matter, the J! developers don't visit this forum and therefore many of the issues we discuss here never reach the developers' ears/eyes.

To quote again from the welcome message:
We are using GitHub discussions as a place to connect with other members of the Joomla! community. In discussion we want to focus on core and code related topics. If you have a question on how to do something with Joomla! the forum is the best place to ask. But if you have an idea on how we can do something different/better you welcome to share your ideas in the GitHub discussions.
That's what I see. So, I would respectfully and gently urge the forum moderation team to ease their burden and simplify any possible confusion and close this "ideas" forum. The ideas forum has, in recent times, become a haven for spam, off-topic or the de facto "complaints department".

So, if the "Joomla! Ideas Forum could of course be used, especially if someone does not have a GitHub account" then perhaps the people who created the GitHub "ideas" forum need to be reminded of that fact that there are about 1-2% of all active J! users who have a GitHub account.

Suggest that you might put this on the agenda for the next forum moderators meeting and let us know the outcome, please.
“If you think I’m wrong then say, ‘I think you’re wrong.’ If you say ‘You’re wrong!’, how do you know?” :)
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Re: There's a whole new process for suggesting new ideas/features in J!

Post by Webdongle » Sat May 22, 2021 9:49 pm

There was a board in this forum for suggestions. Does it still exist?
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: There's a whole new process for suggesting new ideas/features in J!

Post by AMurray » Sat May 22, 2021 9:53 pm

You mean this one, already suggested above by @sozzled - viewforum.php?f=575 or did you mean something separate?
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Re: There's a whole new process for suggesting new ideas/features in J!

Post by sozzled » Sat May 22, 2021 10:15 pm

@Webdongle and @AMurray: the only place that's used at the moment for serious discussions about improving the J! project is at GitHub. This forum is no longer visited by the developers and, consequently, people who contribute on the forum (in the hope that their ideas will be considered and/or adopted) are probably wasting their time.

To save people's time, to avoid confusion and duplication of effort, I suggest the forum moderation team lock this ideas forum, put a sticky topic/placeholder to direct people to GitHub. This idea will ease the burden on forum moderators to not have to deal with complaints, frivolous suggestions or "ideas" that will never go further. That's my idea.

But, by the same token, my idea—posted on this ideas forum—will probably never go further than this discussion. I would like to be assured that ideas aren't just swept aside without being considered on their possible merit. If nothing happens then there's not much more to be written here on the ideas forum, is there?

*** disclaimer ***
This is not entirely my own idea. I've had several hours of discussions with other people (including the moderators of another technical forum dedicated to J!) who have said that they don't use the J! forum because (a) the forum structure is too complex and too difficult to search for relevant information and (b) many of the forum categories are not relevant or no longer relevant to current circumstances.

I offered to use their constructive observations and seek help on this forum to address their concerns.
*** end disclaimer ***

If I have gone about the process incorrectly, I should be most grateful if someone could advise me of the correct procedure and/or place where I can offer my ideas and help. I am using this forum but, if I've done something wrong or not followed the correct procedure, I would like to learn how to improve my approach.

Thanks. 8)
“If you think I’m wrong then say, ‘I think you’re wrong.’ If you say ‘You’re wrong!’, how do you know?” :)
Testing J! 3.10: https://sintranet.enduring.com.au

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Re: There's a whole new process for suggesting new ideas/features in J!

Post by Webdongle » Sat May 22, 2021 11:41 pm

There are that many channels for Joomla that things are getting confused.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
"When I'm right no one remembers but when I'm wrong no one forgets".


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