migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by Daniel Tulp » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:22 pm

severdia wrote:When the PLT had a summit in October, we discussed the various options for migration paths. A few of us were aware of the good work that maguirre/Matias is doing and recommended his extension be the "official-unofficial" path for Joomla 1.6 for a number of reasons, including:

1. The time-based release cycles (a new release every 6 months) mean more incremental releases than major upgrades. In theory, the jump from 1.5 to 1.6 is the last "major" upgrade we'll see and future releases should be more gradual. That generally means less effort and time for extension developers to update their products since each release with likely only require minor tweaks.

2. The changes between Joomla 1.5 and 1.6 are large—like the changes between 1.0 and 1.5—except there's no legacy layer. That means that extension developers will have extra work to get their extensions fully working on 1.6. The time required will vary, but only a few extensions have formally announced 1.6 support and even fewer have started work on it. If you assume the average site has 5-10 extensions (not at all a far-fetched assumption), is it realistic to assume that all of those will be 1.6 compatible within the 6 month period before the next release in June/July? The general conclusion was "not likely."

3. A more robust upgrader is planned for 1.7 (or whatever the next release after 1.6 is called), which will import Joomla 1.5 sites as well as some other formats/CMSs.

There are a myriad of other issues like bandwidth, management, etc. that factored in to the decision. But the reality is, since the release cycle will be relatively short, the June/July version of Joomla will be out before most popular extensions are 1.6-ready. In the interim, some may choose to start new sites on Joomla 1.6, but that will likely encounter the same issue of the availability of compatible extensions.

I know people are hungry for Joomla 1.6 and all the great stuff it has to offer, but if your site works well on 1.5, what's the rush to upgrade? Is it so urgent that you need 1.6 ASAP instead of a few months down the road when there's better developer support? If it actually is that urgent, there's a solution available from a member of the Joomla community (and even more may emerge). I'm sure Matias' extension will mature once 1.6 is declared GA and it'll be just as good as anything official.
Perhaps posting this as a sticky subject on this forum and/or a news-item on the Joomla! homepage would be good ideas? :-[
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by riotgrrl » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:09 pm

severdia wrote:3. A more robust upgrader is planned for 1.7 (or whatever the next release after 1.6 is called), which will import Joomla 1.5 sites as well as some other formats/CMSs.
that sounds like a real good reason to wait. and maybe with time there will pop up some other solutions or I might even try jupgrade. as I am using joomla for a site with quite a lot of content it seemed wise anyway to wait and see how the upgrades turned out...

thanks for the info!

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by Tarun » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:41 pm

An upgrader should have been there already with 1.6. Well, an answer is obvious there; they didn't learn from their mistakes going from 1.0 -> 1.5.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by davetanguay » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:09 pm

Plain and simple, Joomla should not have hyped up 1.6 and had a release party until documentation and a core upgrade option was available. What was this release party for? To celebrate the shafting of the hundreds of thousands of existing Joomla site owners who got left out to pasture?

Yes it is free software but I feel there should be some sort of consideration taken into account for the current users of 1.5.x, such as providing an easy upgrade option. Please don’t respond to this post and say jupgrade is available since according to the posts I have been reading about, it's not worth the attempt. And I feel it is irresponsible to leave the only upgrade option in the lap of a third party component developer. An upgrade option should have been built into the core. This should have been 1st priority.

The thousands of Joomla customers we have are not going to be too happy when they discover they are going to have to fork out more money to a developer to basically rebuild their existing site in 1.6. I've already had a few support tickets from confused customers on how to upgrade. Some sort of migration or upgrade tool should have been built into the core of 1.6.

For new sites, Joomla 1.6 sounds great, but for the hundreds of thousands of existing Joomla sites out there I foresee most will not be upgrading anytime soon.

I don't recall WordPress or Drupal ever having this problem and this is not the first time Joomla has done this to the user community. Remember 1.0? It seems every time Joomla comes out with a new branch, it's a nightmare for the site owner... unless of course they are a developer. In fact we still have some customers running Joomla 1.0.x because they do not have any money budgeted to handle the Joomla "migration".

A core upgrade component should be released in the next version of Joomla 1.6.x in my opinion. If Joomla 1.6 is such an awesome groundbreaking CMS (as it was hyped up to be) it should include 1-click upgrade and/or documentation on upgrading.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by riotgrrl » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:17 pm

Tarun wrote:An upgrader should have been there already with 1.6. Well, an answer is obvious there; they didn't learn from their mistakes going from 1.0 -> 1.5.
obviously that would have been a great thing. I also hoped to find a kind of updater like with wordpress: just a click to update the whole installation. but at least there is an updater for the extensions. I still hope for a function like that in the future. (or is there and I missed it?)
and what do you mean by the mistakes from 1.0? there was a migrationscript which I actually used. wasn't perfect, but well.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by severdia » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:45 pm

davetanguay wrote:Plain and simple, Joomla should not have hyped up 1.6 and had a release party until documentation and a core upgrade option was available. What was this release party for? To celebrate the shafting of the hundreds of thousands of existing Joomla site owners who got left out to pasture?
How are users "shafted"? Have you tried jUpgrade?
davetanguay wrote:Yes it is free software but I feel there should be some sort of consideration taken into account for the current users of 1.5.x, such as providing an easy upgrade option.
There IS an easy upgrade option. It's called jUpgrade.
davetanguay wrote:Please don’t respond to this post and say jupgrade is available since according to the posts I have been reading about, it's not worth the attempt.
Ooops. Too late. :P
davetanguay wrote:And I feel it is irresponsible to leave the only upgrade option in the lap of a third party component developer. An upgrade option should have been built into the core. This should have been 1st priority.
Why is that irresponsible? "Third-party developers" are who built Joomla in the first place. Are they somehow second class citizens?
davetanguay wrote:The thousands of Joomla customers we have are not going to be too happy when they discover they are going to have to fork out more money to a developer to basically rebuild their existing site in 1.6.
jUpgrade is free and GPL.
davetanguay wrote:I've already had a few support tickets from confused customers on how to upgrade. Some sort of migration or upgrade tool should have been built into the core of 1.6.
Possibly, but there were other priorities. Just because your priorities don't align with those doesn't mean Joomla has somehow "shafted" you.
davetanguay wrote:For new sites, Joomla 1.6 sounds great, but for the hundreds of thousands of existing Joomla sites out there I foresee most will not be upgrading anytime soon.
Probably true, but that's mainly due to the available of 1.6-compatible extensions.
davetanguay wrote:I don't recall WordPress or Drupal ever having this problem and this is not the first time Joomla has done this to the user community. Remember 1.0? It seems every time Joomla comes out with a new branch, it's a nightmare for the site owner... unless of course they are a developer. In fact we still have some customers running Joomla 1.0.x because they do not have any money budgeted to handle the Joomla "migration".
You're mistaken. Joomla even had a compatibility layer in 1.5 so users could still use 1.0 extensions. When has Drupal or WP ever been backwards compatible? Never. There were a few migrators for the 1.0 > 1.5 upgrade and one "official" one from Sam.
davetanguay wrote:A core upgrade component should be released in the next version of Joomla 1.6.x in my opinion. If Joomla 1.6 is such an awesome groundbreaking CMS (as it was hyped up to be) it should include 1-click upgrade and/or documentation on upgrading.
Thank you for your opinion. Instead of sharing it here, you should add it where it makes the best sense—to the ideas list here: http://ideas.joomla.org/
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by EvanGR » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:59 pm

severdia wrote: Possibly, but there were other priorities. Just because your priorities don't align with those doesn't mean Joomla has somehow "shafted" you.
With all due respect... the 'other priorities' were based on very unfortunate consideration.

Let me suggest introduce a different order of priorities:

1) Stay on 1.6 RC stage for a couple of months. Finalized enough for developers to start building their sites or extensions.
2) Spend this time on a solid migration tool. Public beta testers (us) can contribute and test the heck out of it. (You could also work on a few minor changes/tweaks to misc. Joomla stuff that don't break anything)
3) Release final 1.6, 2-3 months later, with a stable migration tool available.

What do you gain this way? Well... most important of all you gain the trust of users who are feeling a bit left-behind right now!

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by severdia » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:18 pm

EvanGR wrote: With all due respect... the 'other priorities' were based on very unfortunate consideration.

Let me suggest introduce a different order of priorities:

1) Stay on 1.6 RC stage for a couple of months. Finalized enough for developers to start building their sites or extensions.
2) Spend this time on a solid migration tool. Public beta testers (us) can contribute and test the heck out of it. (You could also work on a few minor changes/tweaks to misc. Joomla stuff that don't break anything)
3) Release final 1.6, 2-3 months later, with a stable migration tool available.

What do you gain this way? Well... most important of all you gain the trust of users who are feeling a bit left-behind right now!
How about I make a suggestion to your suggestion...

How about you at least *try* the upgrader that's currently available before you propose a total realignment of the Joomla development strategy?

It's absurd to toss out hyperbolic claims that users are somehow "left behind" or "shafted." Joomla 1.6 has been in development for three years now. There have been six months of betas for testing, getting extensions up to speed, and for users to get their feet wet.

Nobody is forcing anyone to upgrade. If 1.5 works for you, stick with it. It's been said before and I'll say it again—Joomla is a community-driven open source project of volunteers. What have you done for Joomla to make it better? You could be "testing the heck" out of jUpgrade to make it even better than it is.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by EvanGR » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:44 pm

severdia wrote: It's been said before and I'll say it again—Joomla is a community-driven open source project of volunteers. What have you done for Joomla to make it better? You could be "testing the heck" out of jUpgrade to make it even better than it is.
I have been offering my opinion, like on this thread, whatever that's worth. You seem to think it has little merit. And that's fine.
severdia wrote:You could be "testing the heck" out of jUpgrade to make it even better than it is.
And I will be "testing the heck" out of any tool that will allow me to work from a clean installation of 1.6, transferring my previous content as clean as possible. Not complaining, it's what I am personally interested in.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by davetanguay » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:58 pm

severdia wrote:How are users "shafted"? Have you tried jUpgrade? There IS an easy upgrade option. It's called jUpgrade
Our typical Joomla site owner does not have the skills to use JUpgrade to perform the migration. It would have been nice if there was a 1-click upgrade like WordPress. I don't recall WordPress ever requiring a "migration" like this nor a third party plugin. I myself do have the expertise to attempt the migration but I was speaking more for the customers we have that use Joomla and would not be able to handle a "migration" themselves. I would say 95% of our customers are not going to be able to do the "migration" on their own.
severdia wrote:Why is that irresponsible? "Third-party developers" are who built Joomla in the first place. Are they somehow second class citizens?
No I do not consider them 2nd class citizens, that's ridiculous to even say. Yes technically all programmers of Joomla are third party but I feel that the core developers should have taken the responsibility of including an upgrade or migration option.
davetanguay wrote:jUpgrade is free and GPL.
I'm well aware of that. It doesn't factor in the cost this "migration" would require by 95% of our Joomla customers who are not technically savvy to handle the migration themselves. The site owner would still have to install and customize a template which most had hired a designer for. This "migration" will cost our Joomla customers hundreds if not thousands of dollars depending on their site requirements. They're basically going to have to hire a designer again to handle the "migration" for them and rebuild the site in 1.6.
severdia wrote:Possibly, but there were other priorities. Just because your priorities don't align with those doesn't mean Joomla has somehow "shafted" you.
Well Joomla hasn’t really shafted me but have shafted the non-technically savvy Joomla site owners in my opinion. We all know eventually 1.5.x will no longer be supported just like 1.0 was so "migrating" will be a must for most site owners eventually. Joomla 1.6 basically has caused non-technically savvy users to fork out more money to keep up with future Joomla versions. Again I know Joomla is free, but the implementation and migrations costs are not. If there was an easy upgrade option most customers could perform it themselves without having to hire a designer/developer again. In fact if it was anything like Drupal or WordPress we could have handled the upgrade for them from Installatron, Fantastico or Softaculous like we have been doing for Joomla 1.5.x, WordPress & Drupal sites on our servers.
severdia wrote:Probably true, but that's mainly due to the available of 1.6-compatible extensions.
Even sites without third party extensions are going to hold off on this due to the complexity of the "migration"… in my opinion. Keep in mind the typical Joomla site we host was built by a designer, but managed by a non-tech owner. That non-tech owner will be clueless on how to do the migration.
severdia wrote:You're mistaken. Joomla even had a compatibility layer in 1.5 so users could still use 1.0 extensions. When has Drupal or WP ever been backwards compatible? Never. There were a few migrators for the 1.0 > 1.5 upgrade and one "official" one from Sam.
I'm not referring to backwards compatibility. Even the 1.0-1.5 migration was not easy for non-tech users. It still required a new template to be installed and customized, extensions to be reinstalled, etc… a site rebuild basically.

With WordPress all upgrades they have offered (including third party plugins) could be easily done with just a few clicks.

I do see your side of the issue but I just don’t agree with it. I feel 1.6 should have stayed in RC if you didn’t have enough volunteers at the time to offer an upgrade option. If developers never stated that it was an upgrade, that's fine, our bad… they should have at least considered it.

And please don’t patronize me and ask me what I have done for Joomla lately. Look at my post count and you will see I have spent a good amount of time helping users on this forum with problems they have had over the last few years.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by severdia » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:02 pm

EvanGR wrote:I have been offering my opinion, like on this thread, whatever that's worth. You seem to think it has little merit. And that's fine.
I didn't say it had little merit. I asked you try the proposed option before you passed judgement or proposed an alternative since you claimed the decision was based on "very unfortunate consideration."
EvanGR wrote: And I will be "testing the heck" out of any tool that will allow me to work from a clean installation of 1.6, transferring my previous content as clean as possible. Not complaining, it's what I am personally interested in.
Great! The more testing and feedback there is, the better the tool will be. That also goes for Joomla itself. :)
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by severdia » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:13 pm

davetanguay wrote:Our typical Joomla site owner does not have the skills to use JUpgrade to perform the migration. ... I would say 95% of our customers are not going to be able to do the "migration" on their own.
The upgrade to Joomla 1.6 is a major one. This is not an upgrade that beginners should attempt. Templates need to be updated like the upgrade from 1.0 to 1.5. However, the development strategy is changing with 1.6 to one of more incremental upgrades. That makes the "WordPress model" of upgrades more realistic.
davetanguay wrote:No I do not consider them 2nd class citizens, that's ridiculous to even say. Yes technically all programmers of Joomla are third party but I feel that the core developers should have taken the responsibility of including an upgrade or migration option.
The dev team looked at the available options and resources and made the determination this was the bests course, like it or not.
davetanguay wrote:I'm well aware of that. It doesn't factor in the cost this "migration" would require by 95% of our Joomla customers who are not technically savvy to handle the migration themselves. The site owner would still have to install and customize a template which most had hired a designer for. This "migration" will cost our Joomla customers hundreds if not thousands of dollars depending on their site requirements. They're basically going to have to hire a designer again to handle the "migration" for them and rebuild the site in 1.6.
True for almost all cases. As I said before, this is a major upgrade to Joomla (even though the numbering doesn't reflect that). Don't be fooled by that.
davetanguay wrote:Well Joomla hasn’t really shafted me but have shafted the non-technically savvy Joomla site owners in my opinion.
Great, so we can discuss your needs instead of all the people you "represent."
davetanguay wrote:We all know eventually 1.5.x will no longer be supported just like 1.0 was so "migrating" will be a must for most site owners eventually. Joomla 1.6 basically has caused non-technically savvy users to fork out more money to keep up with future Joomla versions.
Did you read the part about 1.7 having a migrator? Will anyone die in the next six months if they skip 1.6 and go directly to 1.7?
davetanguay wrote:Even sites without third party extensions are going to hold off on this due to the complexity of the "migration"… in my opinion. Keep in mind the typical Joomla site we host was built by a designer, but managed by a non-tech owner. That non-tech owner will be clueless on how to do the migration.
I'd be willing to bet that even if migration was built in, site owners woul dbe holding off anyway because of extensions (and to avoid being the inherent pitfalls of being "early adopters").
davetanguay wrote:I do see your side of the issue but I just don’t agree with it. I feel 1.6 should have stayed in RC if you didn’t have enough volunteers at the time to offer an upgrade option. If developers never stated that it was an upgrade, that's fine, our bad… they should have at least considered it.
It's OK to agree to disagree. :)
davetanguay wrote:And please don’t patronize me and ask me what I have done for Joomla lately. Look at my post count and you will see I have spent a good amount of time helping users on this forum with problems they have had over the last few years.
My intent wasn't to patronize you...just bring your rhetoric into reality. We all have the same goal of making Joomla the best it can be.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by diavolo32 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:43 pm

clickdriven wrote:With great disappointment one more time, I see a new major release with disregard to the past. I can not express my gratitude enough for all that the Joomla! Community has done, especially the commitment of the core team. However, I think it is a fault of the core development team to make the unwise decision to not have a migration tool in place.

Years ago I had to make the decision to go with the new Joomla! fork or stay with Mambo, I went with Joomla!, a decision I have been happy with. I once again find myself at a crossroad to stay or leave... I do not think it will be the doom of Joomla! if migration plans are not part of the next major upgrade, but it certainly will reflect on the professionalism of the core development team.

This is a post I made in July of 2007: http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=176017

Funny how the past repeats itself....

:pop
Totally agree. Thas just a great vision of what a lot of people do. So, they say: sorry, we was developing 1.6 from zero, if you want to migrate... Look one more thing: the same CMS, the SAME, and MIGRATE, not UPGRADE... Is just like if you take 1.6 and change the name to a new project and call it JomlaFork, por example. It's incredible, 3 years later, the same mistake. God, i can't belive. Look how their answers are short and doesn't go to the end of the question, they only talk about what they said. But these is open code, man. It's time to look for Drupal or another while these mistake is solved: maybe there's no solution for these. >:(
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by davetanguay » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:50 pm

severdia wrote:Great, so we can discuss your needs instead of all the people you "represent."
The people I represent are my hosting customers who use Joomla. Their needs are my needs which is why I expressed these concerns. I've already had a few tickets opened asking me to "upgrade" Joomla for them to 1.6. Normally we handled Joomla upgrades for free but unfortunately for them that will no longer be the case with 1.5 to 1.6
severdia wrote:Did you read the part about 1.7 having a migrator? Will anyone die in the next six months if they skip 1.6 and go directly to 1.7?
You're right that is true. It's just with all this hype with Joomla it makes a site owner feel they need to upgrade. But whether or not 1.7 has a migration feature, 1.5.x users are still going to have to "migrate" and get their site rebuilt by a designers... an added cost for all non-tech users, unless of course they can migrate from 1.5.x to 1.7... but I could not find any info about that.

I understand there have been a lot of changes with 1.6 but I find it hard to believe that an easy 1-click upgrade is "impossible" in 1.5.x.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by kncarlsen » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:51 pm

I really can't understand all this whining about a missing upgrade path from 1.5 to 1.6. Joomla! 1.6 have only been out for 2 days and I don't want to convert any customer site before we have at least all necessary extensions and templates available. 1.5 is stable, have a lot of useful extensions and I can't see any reason not to wait a few months to see what will be released of extensions for 1.6.

Thanks to the developers for a job well done and the thousands of hours spent to archive this goal!
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by diavolo32 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:58 pm

kncarlsen wrote:I really can't understand all this whining about a missing upgrade path from 1.5 to 1.6. Joomla! 1.6 have only been out for 2 days and I don't want to convert any customer site before we have at least all necessary extensions and templates available. 1.5 is stable, have a lot of useful extensions and I can't see any reason not to wait a few months to see what will be released of extensions for 1.6.

Thanks to the developers for a job well done and the thousands of hours spent to archive this goal!
Ok, everybody feels great now. So you have a 1.5.x site and are goint to wait to 1.7 with the migrator. Patience is gold. These is what i call the zen philosophy: they don't give me my potatoes with the burguer and i payed the menu, no matter, sure they don't have oil for fried potatoes.

But i think there must be oil. There must be a migrator. They were 2 years with beta, beta, beta, every day betas and more betas and finally the release version... and nobody talks about 1.5.x actual users.

Well, now please, tell to 1.0 users who have the nightmares to migrate to 1.5 that now it's the same nightmare 2 o 3 years later. No matter boys! Is a time question 2 o 3 gurus teach us how to migrate without data loss. Meanwhile, don't shout, don't be angry, be calm, life is good, god is everywhere, only 2 days... 2 days o 3 years? An interesting question, don't you think? ;)
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by davetanguay » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:00 pm

kncarlsen wrote:I really can't understand all this whining about a missing upgrade path from 1.5 to 1.6. Joomla!
Really you don't understand? I find that hard to believe.

This has been done to us before with the 1.0 to 1.5 "migration". Joomla 1.0 users could use a migration tool, but basically had to rebuild their site. The majority of our hosting customers who use Joomla are not technically savvy and had the site built by a designer. Eventually they will have to fork out more money for a designer to handle the "migration". This hasn't made our Joomla customers happy.

I understand they don't have to do an upgrade immediately but if Joomla treats 1.5.x anything like 1.0.x, support for 1.5.x will not longer be available... yes in the far future, but it is inevitable.

Just trying to prepare our customers for future use and support with Joomla at the lowest cost possible.

If an upgrade option was available for the non-tech user (like WordPress) there wouldn't be any of these complaints on this forum in regards to the 1.6 release.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by diavolo32 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:01 pm

davetanguay wrote:
severdia wrote:Great, so we can discuss your needs instead of all the people you "represent."
The people I represent are my hosting customers who use Joomla. Their needs are my needs which is why I expressed these concerns. I've already had a few tickets opened asking me to "upgrade" Joomla for them to 1.6. Normally we handled Joomla upgrades for free but unfortunately for them that will no longer be the case with 1.5 to 1.6
severdia wrote:Did you read the part about 1.7 having a migrator? Will anyone die in the next six months if they skip 1.6 and go directly to 1.7?
You're right that is true. It's just with all this hype with Joomla it makes a site owner feel they need to upgrade. But whether or not 1.7 has a migration feature, 1.5.x users are still going to have to "migrate" and get their site rebuilt by a designers... an added cost for all non-tech users.

I understand there have been a lot of changes with 1.6 but I find it hard to believe that an easy 1-click upgrade is "impossible" in 1.5.x.
I thought the answers to Dave, paragraph by paragrahp, trying to unmount his "rethoric" is an evidence that Joomla Team don't have a real and estructured answer to these questions. Is better, in life: sorry, it's a mistake, we'll fix it sooner o later. Better sooner. ;)
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by masterchief » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:36 pm

davetanguay wrote:If an upgrade option was available for the non-tech user (like WordPress) there wouldn't be any of these complaints on this forum in regards to the 1.6 release.
WordPress is more or less akin to 2 components in Joomla and a fraction of the framework. We actually have that one-click upgrade process in place for extensions. Trying to compare the upgrade of WordPress to Joomla is like trying to comparing maintaining a ferry with an aircraft carrier.

We also have learned from the the upgrade 1.0 to 1.5 in that we've completely revamped the release cycle for future versions. It hasn't saved 1.6 from problems but it will improve from now on. We knew the decision not to have a core migration solution would be unpopular but we made it because Matias was well down the path of providing an external solution - agree or not, that was the decision made given all the influencing factors. I don't mind it anyone disagrees with that decision, state your case, get it off your chest but then ask the question "how can I get jUpgrade production ready faster?". Another thing to do is actually *use* 1.6 and see that's is something you want to actually migrate to before you worry about how it will be done. I can't imagine that we got everything right in point-zero ;)
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by kncarlsen » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:48 pm

diavolo32 wrote: Ok, everybody feels great now. So you have a 1.5.x site and are goint to wait to 1.7 with the migrator. Patience is gold. These is what i call the zen philosophy: they don't give me my potatoes with the burguer and i payed the menu, no matter, sure they don't have oil for fried potatoes.
I've more than 100 1.5-sites and be sure that all will be migrated when time is ready. All my documents is stored in DOCman, not ready, all my customers use JCE, not ready and all pictures are stored in Phoca Gallery, in beta. Do you see the picture :)

Who have paid your menu, you or all developers spending they leisure to give us 1.6 ?
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by severdia » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:00 pm

davetanguay wrote:The people I represent are my hosting customers who use Joomla. Their needs are my needs which is why I expressed these concerns. I've already had a few tickets opened asking me to "upgrade" Joomla for them to 1.6. Normally we handled Joomla upgrades for free but unfortunately for them that will no longer be the case with 1.5 to 1.6
Don't you think it's your responsibility as their hired consultant to temper their excitement with the hazards of early adoption? Yes, it's been a few years and people are eager, but when it comes to business decisions, shouldn't those steps be taken methodically instead of impulsively?
davetanguay wrote:You're right that is true. It's just with all this hype with Joomla it makes a site owner feel they need to upgrade. But whether or not 1.7 has a migration feature, 1.5.x users are still going to have to "migrate" and get their site rebuilt by a designers... an added cost for all non-tech users, unless of course they can migrate from 1.5.x to 1.7... but I could not find any info about that.
Don't allow yourself to get sucked into the hype. Yes, Joomla 1.6 is a great step forward. But unless there's a specific need other than just "I want the latest and greatest toy," there's no real need to upgrade right away. If it's for a hobby website, that's one thing. But if you make your living off of Joomla, there really should be a more strategic reason for recommending the upgrade your customers. Think about all the work and headaches that are coming in the next few months for people that are going to upgrade their sites right away. Joomla could always use more testing. Extensions are largely untested and might require multiple updates to get the level of stability that current exists under Joomla 1.5. Unless you have the thick skin necessary to deal with that "bag of hurt," don't do it yet.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by severdia » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:08 pm

davetanguay wrote:This has been done to us before with the 1.0 to 1.5 "migration". Joomla 1.0 users could use a migration tool, but basically had to rebuild their site.
Please get off this notion that someone is doing something to you. You're painting a picture of a bunch of developers dressed like Dr. Evil sitting around a big table and asking each other "Joomla 1.6 is coming and people are going to be happy about....but what can we do to really, really shaft them?"
davetanguay wrote:The majority of our hosting customers who use Joomla are not technically savvy and had the site built by a designer. Eventually they will have to fork out more money for a designer to handle the "migration". This hasn't made our Joomla customers happy.
Then your customers should save their money for when they actually need (not just want) to upgrade.
davetanguay wrote:Just trying to prepare our customers for future use and support with Joomla at the lowest cost possible.
That's kind of you, but also keep in mind that there's probably a segment of Joomla businesses that are rejoicing there isn't a built-in migrator...so they can charge their clients for the work. In my opinion, if you have a client that wants to be an early adopter and doesn't want to pay for it, they probably should get tech-savvy enough to do it themselves.
davetanguay wrote:If an upgrade option was available for the non-tech user (like WordPress) there wouldn't be any of these complaints on this forum in regards to the 1.6 release.
You're right. They'd be complaints about something else. ;)
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by davetanguay » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:17 pm

severdia wrote:Don't you think it's your responsibility as their hired consultant to temper their excitement with the hazards of early adoption? Yes, it's been a few years and people are eager, but when it comes to business decisions, shouldn't those steps be taken methodically instead of impulsively?
We're just their hosting provider, not a hired consultant but with most site owners we're the first they turn to with questions related to Joomla. Yes we have informed our customers to hold off on any upgrades to 1.6. The hype was just hype!
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by severdia » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:29 pm

davetanguay wrote: We're just their hosting provider, not a hired consultant but with most site owners we're the first they turn to with questions related to Joomla.
So even more so!
davetanguay wrote: Yes we have informed our customers to hold off on any upgrades to 1.6. The hype was just hype!
Yes and no. The "hype" is not overblown when it comes to a handful of specific features (e.g. ACL and nested categories). In my opinion, the only people that should be upgrading in the near term to Joomla 1.6 from 1.5 are people that absolutely need the ACL and haven't been happy with the third-party solutions available. But even that needs to be weighed against the current solutions for 1.5 and the availability of other extensions.

But Joomla 1.5 has been around long enough and extension developers have come up with a lot of creative solutions, that they should have a specific need to upgrade. But, yes, the hype is overblown if a user just wants to be running the "latest and greatest."
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by EvanGR » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:31 pm

Whatever was done, was done.

What I would recommend... is to at least put a link and an informational message on the joomla website for those wanting to upgrade or migrate to joomla 1.6. Let them know that a solid official upgrade path is not available yet, but it will be available as a 3rd party. Briefly explain why, and reassure them that Joomla 1.7 will remedy this situation. Trust of your user base is Joomla's biggest asset, don't hurt it that easily (again).

If I hadn't found this thread, with some logical explanations from the developers, and the reassurance that 1.7 will not "abandon" me again... I would be gone to another CMS-hunting no doubt. Not everyone will see this thread.

If you don't make the situation perfectly clear... developers WILL think that Joomla upgrades behave as new software, disregarding their previous userbase.

Thank you

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by davetanguay » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:44 pm

severdia wrote: Please get off this notion that someone is doing something to you. You're painting a picture of a bunch of developers dressed like Dr. Evil sitting around a big table and asking each other "Joomla 1.6 is coming and people are going to be happy about....but what can we do to really, really shaft them?"
No no no, that is not what I am trying to do. I never implied that. I know they are not evil. I just think they missed the mark with this new release. Please stop trying to make me look bad and put words into my mouth. I'm just trying to express my honest opinion about this release hoping it will help with future branch releases.

The fact is the core developers did not take into consideration the hundreds of thousands of 1.5.x sites that are being managed by non-tech users. It's clear and that oversight cannot be placed on the end users which I have seen many posters do today on this forum.

I've seen too much of "Well what have you done for Joomla?" and "You should have told us when it was in Beta" and even calling us Freeloaders! Ridiculous questions and comments if you ask me! I've posted to this forum helping others more than most on this forum and I didn't think I had to request an easy upgrade path from old versions. I thought all of us had learned from the headaches from 1.0 to 1.5 and figured the core developers would take this into consideration.

I couldn't imagine telling a customer who asked how to upgrade Joomla to 1.6 that there is no easy upgrade option and that they need to go be more tech savvy. Especially since we had offered 1 click upgrades from within cPanel > Installatron with previous Joomla versions. And no jupgrade is not easy for the non tech user.

I just want you to know that I don't think the programmers are out to get me or anything like that, I just feel development of 1.6 should have considered existing 1.5.x users in its blueprint from day one.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by severdia » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:02 am

davetanguay wrote:
severdia wrote: Please get off this notion that someone is doing something to you. You're painting a picture of a bunch of developers dressed like Dr. Evil sitting around a big table and asking each other "Joomla 1.6 is coming and people are going to be happy about....but what can we do to really, really shaft them?"
No no no, that is not what I am trying to do. I never implied that. I know they are not evil. I just think they missed the mark with this new release. Please stop trying to make me look bad and put words into my mouth. I'm just trying to express my honest opinion about this release hoping it will help with future branch releases.
My intent isn't to make you look bad. But you've made some bold statements and accusations so I just want to respond in order to make clear what might not be so clear—the planning and the process that got us to where we are today. To imply that people are getting shafted or left out in the cold is just plain untrue. This goes for the things you've said as well as what others have said so I don't want you to think I'm only referring to your comments in my responses.
davetanguay wrote:The fact is the core developers did not take into consideration the hundreds of thousands of 1.5.x sites that are being managed by non-tech users. It's clear and that oversight cannot be placed on the end users which I have seen many posters do today on this forum.
This wasn't an oversight. It was a deliberate decision to go with a migrator developed by someone in the community. That decision was not made because the team wanted to create problems for Joomla users. It was made for the reasons I previously outlined. Those reasons don't "jive" with some people and that's OK. We can't please all the people all the time.
davetanguay wrote:I've seen too much of "Well what have you done for Joomla?" and "You should have told us when it was in Beta" and even calling us Freeloaders! Ridiculous questions and comments if you ask me! I've posted to this forum helping others more than most on this forum and I didn't think I had to request an easy upgrade path from old versions. I thought all of us had learned from the headaches from 1.0 to 1.5 and figured the core developers would take this into consideration.
I don't know who is using a term like "freeloader" but that's plain wrong. Yes, it's a perfectly fair question to ask "what have you done for Joomla?" because it's more or less a meritocracy. If someone that's involved with Joomla is using a term like that or disrespecting you in some fashion, it should be called to the attention of the leader of their team or the Leadership Team. If you're involved in any open source project, having "freeloaders" (aka people that just download the project and don't contribute back) is part of the equation. It's a fact of life. Yes, in a perfect world, everyone would contribute back. But that will never be.
davetanguay wrote:I couldn't imagine telling a customer who asked how to upgrade Joomla to 1.6 that there is no easy upgrade option and that they need to go be more tech savvy. Especially since we had offered 1 click upgrades from within cPanel > Installatron with previous Joomla versions. And no jupgrade is not easy for the non tech user.
As a webhost, you shouldn't be put in the position of auto-upgrading websites. I won't tell you how to run your business, but I think it's something outside the scope of what a normal webhost normally does. Again, the upgrade from 1.5 to 1.6 is pretty drastic. And I wouldn't dare try to upgrade a site template with any auto-upgrader. That's a recipe for disaster.
davetanguay wrote:I just want you to know that I don't think the programmers are out to get me or anything like that, I just feel development of 1.6 should have considered existing 1.5.x users in its blueprint from day one.
It has, but it's also taken into consideration the path forward. We have a new six-month development cycle that takes us up to July 10 for the next release and January 10, 2011 after that. With that new process, the releases should be much smoother from here on out.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by davetanguay » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:44 am

severdia wrote:As a webhost, you shouldn't be put in the position of auto-upgrading websites. I won't tell you how to run your business, but I think it's something outside the scope of what a normal webhost normally does.
Yeah that is what I thought years ago when we started getting a lot of Joomla and WordPress sites on our servers.... but that just isn't the case anymore. When new security releases were available for Joomla and WordPress we'd inform customers of the upgrade and told them they were mandatory. 95% of customers never upgraded and we had all sorts Joomla and WordPress sites get hacked due to them still running old versions. The hacked customers were pretty much clueless as to how it happened... most ignored the notices we sent.

This not only affected their site but the entire server. The entire server wasn't hacked, but the hacked sites usually caused load issues from the hacker or got us listed on some RBLs which affected all customers on the server... so now we do consider CMS upgrades our responsibility if we can do them easily.

I have found you cannot leave security patches up to the customer on a shared server unless you want sites to get hacked. I remember in 1 week we had 12 Joomla sites get hacked.

We have found auto-updating Joomla and WordPress for them has reduced the amount of hacked sites. In fact since we've started doing it about 8-10 months ago we haven't had any additional sites gets hacked. cPanel > Installatron is a great tool which is very helpful in installing new Joomla and WordPress patches. We always back up each install first.

We also run a script daily which searches our servers for old versions of Joomla and WordPress. We then import those installs into Installatron so they can be upgraded server-wide when new versions are available.

99.999% of our customers love us for this. We've only had 2 complaints about upgrading scripts for the customers so we whitelisted them from the auto-update.

If you're a host and don't think it is your responsibility to keeping scripts updated, think again unless you want to deal with hacked sites and server abuse issues later down the road.

As far as Joomla 1.6, I understand it’s not required as a security release but many of our customers were unhappy when they discovered we would not be able to handle the server-wide upgrade from 1.5.22 to 1.6.

Customers don't like discovering they need to spend more money for an upgrade which is going to be required for a good majorty of them due to the fact they are non tech users.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by maguirre » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:13 am

jUpgrade v0.5.2 is released. All people that like to test it are welcome.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by severdia » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:51 am

davetanguay wrote:If you're a host and don't think it is your responsibility to keeping scripts updated, think again unless you want to deal with hacked sites and server abuse issues later down the road.
Makes perfect sense, but only applies to security updates and minor releases. Joomla 1.6 is a whole new ball game.
davetanguay wrote:As far as Joomla 1.6, I understand it’s not required as a security release but many of our customers were unhappy when they discovered we would not be able to handle the server-wide upgrade from 1.5.22 to 1.6.
Well, part of that you can blame on the version numbering. While the 1.5.22 to 1.6 update may seem like a minor update, it isn't. It can be deceiving.
davetanguay wrote:Customers don't like discovering they need to spend more money for an upgrade which is going to be required for a good majorty of them due to the fact they are non tech users.
They don't like spending money for an upgrade when you spoil them. All my clients (and clients of other Joomla consultants I know) are used to paying for each and every upgrade. If you give that for free every time, they come to expect it (demand it?) of you. But it can't apply to all upgrades and all situations (case in point). Again, I won't tell you how to run your business, but that's mighty generous work for nothing (even in the non-profit sector).

Matias just posted that there's a new version of the upgrader and it was pointed out in another thread that the DIFF script is included in the Joomla 1.6 distribution. So, even without jUpgrade, there's a nice head start for a developer to take that script and create another upgrader. Time to test it out and give him feedback so the countless Joomla 1.5 users out there can enjoy a smoother update! :)
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