migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by kinkseb » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:47 pm

clickdriven wrote:With great disappointment one more time, I see a new major release with disregard to the past. I can not express my gratitude enough for all that the Joomla! Community has done, especially the commitment of the core team. However, I think it is a fault of the core development team to make the unwise decision to not have a migration tool in place.

Years ago I had to make the decision to go with the new Joomla! fork or stay with Mambo, I went with Joomla!, a decision I have been happy with. I once again find myself at a crossroad to stay or leave... I do not think it will be the doom of Joomla! if migration plans are not part of the next major upgrade, but it certainly will reflect on the professionalism of the core development team.

This is a post I made in July of 2007: http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=176017

Funny how the past repeats itself....

:pop
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by EvanGR » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:58 pm

Dear Joomla developers, and whoever thought of it, ... that was a bad idea. You're effectively saying Joomla 1.6 is a new product, unrelated to its previous incarnation. And if the change has been so major, at least call it Joomla 2.0 or another name entirely. Not that this wouldn't leave 1.5 users hanging in the air.

I understand that a lot has changed and a lot of stuff is not compatible with J1.6 but... not even my articles and images worth a simple transfer tool? Really?

I don't mind if it takes another 1-2-3 months for an *official* way of migrating to a 1.6 site. Official means 'the user is supported and taken care of', not 'hopefully someone else will take care of you'.

I've only been with Joomla 1.5 but seeing the posts in this thread, this situation isn't new apparently.

I am starting to investigate other CMSs as of now. I am genuinely worried about the time and trust I've put into this product. I am extremely grateful for all the effort that has been put into it and the fact that it's free. But the persons that decided that an official migration plan is not going to be available, are still going to be here making decisions again in joomla 1.7 and thereafter. And I am not too comfortable with that.

Thank you!

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by kinkseb » Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:07 pm

same here, I don't mind waiting a little, but for the devs to just say there won't be any migration support, I'm not even sure I want to bother transferring all my site (still in development) manually to 1.6 RC. What if there is no official support for upgrading to 1.6RC to 1.6 stable???

I understand fully the concept of Open Source and that it's free etc ... but not offering an upgrade / migration script between version is just the fast way to kill a project...
I do no wish that for Joomla and I was really looking forward for the ACL, but I'm definitely looking elsewhere for CMS options as this is just not good enough ...

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by CapeCodWeather » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:45 pm

Pretty bad planning on the Core Development team's part here. Very disappointing too. You worked so hard to get people to use 1.5, and now you tell them that they'll have to find a third-party extension to import their old Joomla content?

If you consciously made the decision to rely on a third party developer to build a migration tool, then obviously you've recognized that a migration tool is necessary.

I hate to say it, but this is another Joomla fail.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by Asphyx » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:55 pm

I think some temporing and a small history lesson is in order here.

First off 1.5 before it was even released was always meant as a transitional project that incorporated a new MVC framework that could support all the new things that 1.6 wanted to accomplish a new and more configurable and precise ACL system which has been on the request list as far back as Mambo!

It was the first seperation of of content view and core that Joomla desperatly needed. People wanted much more change but then it would not have had a migration from 1.0 if they made those changes. (Same issue here)

The Devs have always held as truth that to take the next step (V1.6) lots of things were going to need to change and be re-written from scratch. And doing so would break past compatibility so much that it would be very difficult to migrate data that simply is not structured the same anymore.

Even if Migration was provided it still would not work for any of your 3PD components or modules. So your content and userlist would transfer and you would be left waiting for 3PD options to transfer the remainder.

Did they decide to NOT provide a Migration script? No my guess is they would if they could but the changes are so great that it would never work effectively.

The bitches about 1.5 when it came out was they didn't change enough. they didn't change too much because they wanted to keep compatibility with old DB structure while getting the developer community started on using and implementing the new framework. Note how many Components already claim 1.6 support. thats due to the good planning by the Dev team of inserting a good MVC framework that seperates the display from the rest so that they could make changes to the DB that were needed to give us things like better ACL and other features that required some DB structure change to accomplish.

Am I disappointed that there is no Migration tool? Sure!
But I also understand how hard it is to make one considering how no two websites are the same and run the same configuration.

1.6 as far as I can remember has always been a new beast with the same familiarity of the old Joomla version but with a very different engine under the hood.

And like I said we were talking about this before 1.5 was even a stable and I clearly remember the Devs (Like Jinx) saying that 1.6 was going to be a very different project when compared to 1.5.

!.5 brought framework to old joomla 1.6 is the next revolution not evolution.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by EvanGR » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:15 pm

Asphyx, thanks for the info.

But given the history that you also described...

How can we trust we won't face a similar situation when joomla 1.7, 1.8... 2.0 come about?

Why not call this Joomla 2.0 (being such a major change) and let as all celebrate and rejoice in a new generation of upgradable releases?

Why should we trust and depend upon Joomla being a continuous evolution rather than a series of new products with the same name, every so often?

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by Tonie » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:16 pm

I think it's fair to say that none of the ideas at the time are still valid today, too much has changed over the years. There have been loads of talks about 1.6/2.0, but those usually started with 'ditch it all and start over again, starting with the database structure'. The way I see it, 1.6 is evolutionary and not revolutionary. Not that I mind the last part, since it makes it easier.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by clickdriven » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:24 pm

I too am enthused about 1.6, and understand perfectly why it was done this way, but it is still the same song.

Here is a quote from a public forum from a Drupal user:
I also find it (Drupal) a little less condescending that other systems I've used. The people are very knowledgeable and genuinely want to help. I also find it a much friendlier framework in which to develop. There is "no legacy" to deal with. Many other OS projects out there have a legacy to maintain compatibility with.You may also notice that many of the Joomla users are design centric, rather than developer centric.
This is not to say I am promoting Drupal, I just think the Joomla! core development team sometimes needs to slow down. Mark my words, "the next time this happens the community will not be as strong as it is today".

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by maguirre » Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:01 am

I think we should not be so hard on developers. They are too busy solving bugs every day, sometimes the amount of work is great and can not do everything.

However, I have received support from developers for the project jUpgrade. Specifically Andrew Eddie sent me a patch for the project and I'm sure we will have a migration tool to be fully functional when Joomla 1.6 is stable.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by kinkseb » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:25 am

@ maguirre:
appreciate very much the efforts you're putting in jUpgrade and I'm glad to hear you do get support from the devs. I hope you'll get a stable migration tool soon :)

@ Tony / Asphyx:
Evolution or revolution, same fight... if 1.6 is not compatible with previous versions, then it should be an entirely new project, at worst a 2.0.
The way I see it is like a book.... if at some point chapter 16 has nothing to do with the story in the previous ones, write a new book, don't expect other writers to fill in the blanks and make the links...

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by SOAMJENA » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:08 pm

I will wait, till a official app is available.
There a re 100s of customers, who are using like 10-15 different components in their website.
If 1.6 is different, then I'm sure, those component may or may not work anymore on 1.6 stable and at that time, the volcano erupts.

No one will spend on upgrading his core and components, and get on roads for that.

I dont know, whats going to happen, but I just cant make up my mind, neither can answer my clients.

Whoever is asking, Im just answering them that there is no need to upgrade to 1.6 and we can just stay with 1.5 .

Lets see.. Keeping fingers crossed.

We will surely need a way to successfully migrate the site from 1.5 to 1.6 , without touching or breaking the existing stuff.

Its already a bad news that, current components wont work on 1.6 . :|
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by maguirre » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:28 pm

The idea to follow is that each 3rd extension developer fill a form (i dont know if in JED) with the data of the component and the url of the new component compatible with Joomla 1.6.
When jUpgrade runs, it search for available components compatible with Joomla 1.6 and compare it with installed components in Joomla 1.5. Then it should migrate all components.

Same for templates (working now on this). Im following the excellent article written by Kyle Ledbetter :

http://www.joomlapraise.com/blog/item/5 ... ial-part-1

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by SOAMJENA » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:41 pm

But what about the data contained in that components ?
Dont think, they will get migrated as well.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by maguirre » Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:36 pm

Most components will not change their database structure so we can to migrate all data from old Joomla 1.5 to Joomla 1.6.

Maybe if some extensions changes their database structures, we need to create some methods that helps 3rd ext dev to migrate their old data.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by SOAMJENA » Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:45 pm

Ok, I agree with your word , but its hard to convince a customer. Lets see.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by maguirre » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:17 pm

Are you tried with jUpgrade? I need more feedback to fix most bugs and errors
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by kinkseb » Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:29 pm

I have tried jUpgrade on my 1.5.22 site. After a few issues where the upgrade was stuck on unzipping (found the solutions in your forums), I'm now stuck on installing where it doesn't show any progress.
I'll have to register on your forums when I get some time to provide a more detailed feedback and hopefully help getting your component working ;)

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by SOAMJENA » Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:18 am

I just took one of my site backup to my localhost and installed jUpgrade in it.

Then while clicking on START UPGRADE, it completely hangs here,

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by Asphyx » Sat Dec 25, 2010 3:57 pm

kinkseb wrote:@ Tony / Asphyx:
Evolution or revolution, same fight... if 1.6 is not compatible with previous versions, then it should be an entirely new project, at worst a 2.0.
Who said that 1.6 was not compatible with 1.5? I am sure many components work fine, And Modules and plugins should have no reason to not work with maybe some exceptions to that.

The problems with migration are not problems of compatability they are problems of awareness. Hard to make a migration tool that can identify every component that exists and migrate the data. (ask Mcguirre!) It was just as true for the migration from 1.0 to 1.5 Although not as daunting simply because the database structure didn't change that much. I can't speak to how much change has been made to the DB but if ACL and permissions has made it into this release I know that would require some DB Changes and new checks that must be implemented by 3PD developers for it to work.
I think it's fair to say that none of the ideas at the time are still valid today, too much has changed over the years. There have been loads of talks about 1.6/2.0, but those usually started with 'ditch it all and start over again, starting with the database structure'. The way I see it, 1.6 is evolutionary and not revolutionary.
Well obviously in a two year dev cycle things are going to change. I remember people being disappointed that flexible ACL was probably not going to happen until V2.0 when everything was going to change with the possible exception of the MVC model. It was thought it would require a total rewrite of core.

When 1.5 was released many complained not enough change was made. Thier pet feature wasn't added. Now that many of those seem to be added we are complaining that too much changed and it is not as compatible as some would like?
How can any Dev win under those conditions?

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by maguirre » Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:23 pm

@SOAMJENA:

Have you php-zip or php-zlib module instaled?
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by chachu201 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:52 am

In the User Manual here:

http://docs.joomla.org/Joomla_1.6_User_Manual/Main_Page

It states that a migration tool will be available... just not when.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by Peter_AUS » Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:00 am

Lack of Migration from Joomla 1.5 to Joomla 1.6 final release, I believe that all those that are not Joomla Gurus, will see this as a big mistake big time, certainly will from me. A friend of mine told me not to go the Joomla way, back with 1.0.x and I felt that Joomla was the easiest for me to use, certainly 1.5.x has been, and was waiting for 1.6 to address a lot of the ACL side of things that I didn't like, like lack of ability to create standardised groupings across my integrated system, with vBulletin and gallery2. Content layout side of things needed to be a bit easier as well, with sub-sections, sub-categories etc, and was hoping to see that as well. But if there is not going to be an easy way to migrate over to 1.6, will there be the same as has been mentioned by others for future changes, if you no longer call an change from 1.5 to 1.6 an upgrade (beggars belief that you don't understand that terminology as always being an upgrade) not a version change, going from 1.5.x to 2.0.x is a version change not an upgrade, then really some of you shouldn't be in the business of programming.

Yes Joomla is free, but if you want it to stay as popular as it is, then you really need to rethink your ideas of how to keep the masses happy, otherwise they will move to other CMS software which is also free, I certainly am going to now start looking again at Drupal and Mambo. And I have spent money on plugins for Joomla that I will now have to seek other avenues for as well, and possibly purchase equivalent for them.
Thanks,

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by Fabbritzio » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:03 am

Come on... this is a joke. Of course there will be an upgrade/migration tool from joomla 1.5 to 1.6. Wait for the stable release, and after that we will have some tools.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by kinkseb » Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:24 pm

@ Asphyx
Agree, sorry that I used the wrong terminology (compatible vs upgradable).
Still, has someone pointed out, we are not all Joomla Gurus-Masters-Heroes, and if the content / websites I created for 1.5 doesn't work for 1.6, then to me these 2 versions are not ... compatibles ;)

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by clickdriven » Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:46 pm

This is a terrible decision. I can tell you exactly what will happen, regardless of how the core development team wants to sugar coat it:

* Version 1.5 will be a legacy version that will be unsupported just as 1.0 is right now.

* Eventually there will no longer be support for extensions for 1.5, and they will no longer be listed in the JED.

* If you do not migrate your "old" site you will not be able to add functionality as new extensions will only work with 1.6

* If you do migrate you will lose functionality as you will be using some extensions that are not 1.6 compatible.

* Many templates will no longer work with 1.6

I think it is funny that the core development team is taking the case that this is an either or scenario. Either we improve by rewriting and not make an upgrade or we stay with the same old platform. It does not have to be this way, a true upgrade can take place if this was carefully thought out this way.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by maguirre » Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:26 pm

jUpgrade v0.4.7 Released.
Please test it we need feedback!

http://matware.com.ar/joomla/jupgrade-v ... eased.html
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by red2678 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:35 pm

Like I said...they will post for me :]

@maguirre Please stop hijacking this thread...

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by Tonie » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:49 pm

Chill, he's only trying to help.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by red2678 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:59 pm

@Tonie, I just want to keep this thread focused on the topic. Did I not say please? Was I rude?

I support jUpgrade and applaud his efforts. I have recommended his product to many people and even promoted it on the Joomla Facebook page. But like I said....so I really do not need to “chill.” Nor do I appreciate your comment.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by maguirre » Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:50 am

@red2678

hijacking? im posting my ideas and comments related with Joomla migration. Cant i post my comments?
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