migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by severdia » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:32 pm

When the PLT had a summit in October, we discussed the various options for migration paths. A few of us were aware of the good work that maguirre/Matias is doing and recommended his extension be the "official-unofficial" path for Joomla 1.6 for a number of reasons, including:

1. The time-based release cycles (a new release every 6 months) mean more incremental releases than major upgrades. In theory, the jump from 1.5 to 1.6 is the last "major" upgrade we'll see and future releases should be more gradual. That generally means less effort and time for extension developers to update their products since each release with likely only require minor tweaks.

2. The changes between Joomla 1.5 and 1.6 are large—like the changes between 1.0 and 1.5—except there's no legacy layer. That means that extension developers will have extra work to get their extensions fully working on 1.6. The time required will vary, but only a few extensions have formally announced 1.6 support and even fewer have started work on it. If you assume the average site has 5-10 extensions (not at all a far-fetched assumption), is it realistic to assume that all of those will be 1.6 compatible within the 6 month period before the next release in June/July? The general conclusion was "not likely."

3. A more robust upgrader is planned for 1.7 (or whatever the next release after 1.6 is called), which will import Joomla 1.5 sites as well as some other formats/CMSs.

There are a myriad of other issues like bandwidth, management, etc. that factored in to the decision. But the reality is, since the release cycle will be relatively short, the June/July version of Joomla will be out before most popular extensions are 1.6-ready. In the interim, some may choose to start new sites on Joomla 1.6, but that will likely encounter the same issue of the availability of compatible extensions.

I know people are hungry for Joomla 1.6 and all the great stuff it has to offer, but if your site works well on 1.5, what's the rush to upgrade? Is it so urgent that you need 1.6 ASAP instead of a few months down the road when there's better developer support? If it actually is that urgent, there's a solution available from a member of the Joomla community (and even more may emerge). I'm sure Matias' extension will mature once 1.6 is declared GA and it'll be just as good as anything official.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by RobbyRobby » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:04 pm

severdia wrote:When the PLT had a summit in October, we discussed the various options for migration paths. A few of us were aware of the good work that maguirre/Matias is doing and recommended his extension be the "official-unofficial" path for Joomla 1.6 for a number of reasons, including:

1. The time-based release cycles (a new release every 6 months) mean more incremental releases than major upgrades. In theory, the jump from 1.5 to 1.6 is the last "major" upgrade we'll see and future releases should be more gradual. That generally means less effort and time for extension developers to update their products since each release with likely only require minor tweaks.

2. The changes between Joomla 1.5 and 1.6 are large—like the changes between 1.0 and 1.5—except there's no legacy layer. That means that extension developers will have extra work to get their extensions fully working on 1.6. The time required will vary, but only a few extensions have formally announced 1.6 support and even fewer have started work on it. If you assume the average site has 5-10 extensions (not at all a far-fetched assumption), is it realistic to assume that all of those will be 1.6 compatible within the 6 month period before the next release in June/July? The general conclusion was "not likely."

3. A more robust upgrader is planned for 1.7 (or whatever the next release after 1.6 is called), which will import Joomla 1.5 sites as well as some other formats/CMSs.

There are a myriad of other issues like bandwidth, management, etc. that factored in to the decision. But the reality is, since the release cycle will be relatively short, the June/July version of Joomla will be out before most popular extensions are 1.6-ready. In the interim, some may choose to start new sites on Joomla 1.6, but that will likely encounter the same issue of the availability of compatible extensions.

I know people are hungry for Joomla 1.6 and all the great stuff it has to offer, but if your site works well on 1.5, what's the rush to upgrade? Is it so urgent that you need 1.6 ASAP instead of a few months down the road when there's better developer support? If it actually is that urgent, there's a solution available from a member of the Joomla community (and even more may emerge). I'm sure Matias' extension will mature once 1.6 is declared GA and it'll be just as good as anything official.
Well that all makes fine sense. After reading this i feel less confused over the lack of an official upgrade-path but instead more confused over the choice of calling it "1.6" and not "2.0" since it is a major upgrade, as you wrote. I think a name-change would be wise at least before the gold release. It wouldn't hurt calling it "2.0" instead, while calling "1.6" obviously already does. Not a big deal for me, but i'm thinking of the big picture.

Personally i'm entirely in 1.6 for the custom usergroups. Since they will be a part of the official core from 1.6 and onwards one can assume that all extensions released for 1.6 will support custom usergroups too, which would be perfect for the growth of a couple of my community-sites.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by astroboysoup » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:13 pm

I've been using my own custom 1.5 -> 1.6 migration tool here on the Macs.

Command+C, switch browser tabs
and then Command+V,
swtich back to browser tabs

:)
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by brian » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:14 pm

RobbyRobby wrote: Personally i'm entirely in 1.6 for the custom usergroups. Since they will be a part of the official core from 1.6 and onwards one can assume that all extensions released for 1.6 will support custom usergroups too, which would be perfect for the growth of a couple of my community-sites.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by severdia » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:15 pm

RobbyRobby wrote: Well that all makes fine sense. After reading this i feel less confused over the lack of an official upgrade-path but instead more confused over the choice of calling it "1.6" and not "2.0" since it is a major upgrade, as you wrote. I think a name-change would be wise at least before the gold release. It wouldn't hurt calling it "2.0" instead, while calling "1.6" obviously already does. Not a big deal for me, but i'm thinking of the big picture.
Totally agree, but I was in the small minority with those that thought 2.0 was better than 1.6. So it is what it is. ;)
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by RobbyRobby » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:20 pm

brian wrote:
RobbyRobby wrote: Personally i'm entirely in 1.6 for the custom usergroups. Since they will be a part of the official core from 1.6 and onwards one can assume that all extensions released for 1.6 will support custom usergroups too, which would be perfect for the growth of a couple of my community-sites.
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When you assume you make an ass out of you and me
I've never heard/read that before and English is a secondary language to me so i don't even know if that is an insult, a joke or a tip. What's the point you want to make with your post? Are you saying that you don't think it is wise of me to assume what i did?

I think the mod-makers of many mods i've used for a long time have been great with keeping up-to-date with whatever changes that the Joomla devs have made to the core of the software so i don't see why it's a bad thing to assume that they will pull this off nicely too. I think there is great talent in the many hobbyists around here.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by severdia » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:24 pm

RobbyRobby wrote: I've never heard/read that before and English is a secondary language to me so i don't even know if that is an insult, a joke or a tip. What's the point you want to make with your post? Are you saying that you don't think it is wise of me to assume what i did?
Yes, RobbyRobby. He's using a colorful, non-native-English-friendly expression to say "you shouldn't count your chickens before they've hatched." :)
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by RobbyRobby » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:29 pm

severdia wrote:
RobbyRobby wrote: I've never heard/read that before and English is a secondary language to me so i don't even know if that is an insult, a joke or a tip. What's the point you want to make with your post? Are you saying that you don't think it is wise of me to assume what i did?
Yes, RobbyRobby. He's using a colorful, non-native-English-friendly expression to say "you shouldn't count your chickens before they've hatched." :)
Hehe, thanks for letting me know. I'm certainly not superstitious, though maybe an optimist, but i do have plenty of faith in the mod-makers. Just a matter of time!

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by brian » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:34 pm

What I was trying to say is that just because an extension works in joomla 1.6 it does not mean that the extension developer will use the full power of 1.6. Just as with joomla 1.5 many extension developers chose to implement things their own way. That will almost certainly mean that not all 1.6 extensions will take advantage of the acl and groups features.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by maguirre » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:41 pm

astroboysoup wrote:I've been using my own custom 1.5 -> 1.6 migration tool here on the Macs.

Command+C, switch browser tabs
and then Command+V,
swtich back to browser tabs

:)
:laugh:
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by kinkseb » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:25 am

thanks for your input severdia, much appreciated.
Fully agree with you and Robby that it should have been called 2.0. I wish though whatever it was called, communications had been better from the start to make things clear (like you did) for the entire community.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by ksandven » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:19 am

One challenge with calling it 2.0 is that it brings too few improvements for the end-user. Lots of things have happened in the background, but they are not as noticable. It could be bad to release a new 'major' version of Joomla when the actual improvements for most end-users are few and far apart (as a lot of users won't need or understand advanced ACL).

Anyway, thank you for the clarification, Ron.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by birnik » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:13 am

That makes sense.
I am simply afraid that the PLT changes its decisions too often. There will be comments -> there will be no comments. There will be upgrader -> there will be no "official" upgrader.
What worries me, and other people I think, is the lack of public vision where the project will go.
Something like:
  • 1.7 will contain this and that.
  • 1.8 will contain this and that.
  • Our best estimations are that 1.7 will be out in July.
  • And so on...
Now when going on time scheduled releases, I think it will be even better if each release focuses on one certain thing in the core, so the upgrades will be really minor.
For example:
  • 1.7 will target improvements on content
  • 1.7 will not touch the template engine, except if it is something related to the changes of content
  • 1.7 will not touch the ACL API
  • And so on...
A vision and a public plan is something that the project lacks. And I hope that will be thing to improve in 2011 :)


severdia wrote:When the PLT had a summit in October, we discussed the various options for migration paths. A few of us were aware of the good work that maguirre/Matias is doing and recommended his extension be the "official-unofficial" path for Joomla 1.6 for a number of reasons, including:

1. The time-based release cycles (a new release every 6 months) mean more incremental releases than major upgrades. In theory, the jump from 1.5 to 1.6 is the last "major" upgrade we'll see and future releases should be more gradual. That generally means less effort and time for extension developers to update their products since each release with likely only require minor tweaks.

2. The changes between Joomla 1.5 and 1.6 are large—like the changes between 1.0 and 1.5—except there's no legacy layer. That means that extension developers will have extra work to get their extensions fully working on 1.6. The time required will vary, but only a few extensions have formally announced 1.6 support and even fewer have started work on it. If you assume the average site has 5-10 extensions (not at all a far-fetched assumption), is it realistic to assume that all of those will be 1.6 compatible within the 6 month period before the next release in June/July? The general conclusion was "not likely."

3. A more robust upgrader is planned for 1.7 (or whatever the next release after 1.6 is called), which will import Joomla 1.5 sites as well as some other formats/CMSs.

There are a myriad of other issues like bandwidth, management, etc. that factored in to the decision. But the reality is, since the release cycle will be relatively short, the June/July version of Joomla will be out before most popular extensions are 1.6-ready. In the interim, some may choose to start new sites on Joomla 1.6, but that will likely encounter the same issue of the availability of compatible extensions.

I know people are hungry for Joomla 1.6 and all the great stuff it has to offer, but if your site works well on 1.5, what's the rush to upgrade? Is it so urgent that you need 1.6 ASAP instead of a few months down the road when there's better developer support? If it actually is that urgent, there's a solution available from a member of the Joomla community (and even more may emerge). I'm sure Matias' extension will mature once 1.6 is declared GA and it'll be just as good as anything official.
Birnik

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by robwickham » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:54 pm

severdia wrote: 3. A more robust upgrader is planned for 1.7 (or whatever the next release after 1.6 is called), which will import Joomla 1.5 sites as well as some other formats/CMSs.
This is the first I've seen this information... It sounds great and definitely worth waiting for! I hope it really happens.
I know people are hungry for Joomla 1.6 and all the great stuff it has to offer, but if your site works well on 1.5, what's the rush to upgrade?
It's not so much as a rush, just a planning consideration. At some point, we need to follow the upward path. I have sites that work great in 1.0. But I'm finding less support available and I'm getting pressure from my hosting provider to upgrade for security reasons.

Having to rebuild client sites instead of upgrading them takes a too much time and puts us in the position of risking older clients vs. turning away new ones.

I'm very encouraged by your information. Based on what you said, I'm going to keep my 1.5 sites until I can efficiently move to 1.7 or beyond.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by severdia » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:09 pm

birnik wrote:That makes sense.
I am simply afraid that the PLT changes its decisions too often. There will be comments -> there will be no comments. There will be upgrader -> there will be no "official" upgrader.
Decisions are made and changed all the time. Circumstances change, priorities change. Technology evolves. That's the nature of open source software.
birnik wrote:What worries me, and other people I think, is the lack of public vision where the project will go.

A vision and a public plan is something that the project lacks. And I hope that will be thing to improve in 2011 :)
I agree and that's why we decided to have "themes" for each release. This was announced in November after the summit:

http://www.joomla.org/announcements/gen ... lease.html

The idea is that if we have a specific scope/vision for each upcoming release (and we communicate that 6 months in advance) we can achieve more focus and efficiency. Accomplishing that vision is also up to the community, not just relying on the dev team to do all the work. So the more people get involved, the more realistic that vision will be for each release.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by severdia » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:18 pm

robwickham wrote: I have sites that work great in 1.0. But I'm finding less support available and I'm getting pressure from my hosting provider to upgrade for security reasons.
There's already a decent and official migration path for 1.0 to 1.5 and you should try to test that out. In technology terms, Joomla 1.0 is a dinosaur. :)
robwickham wrote: I'm very encouraged by your information. Based on what you said, I'm going to keep my 1.5 sites until I can efficiently move to 1.7 or beyond.
That's also an option some have already expressed. They may just skip 1.6 if it's only 6 months until the next release with an upgrader. If you have a lot of extensions, this might make the most sense for you, which would give developers time to upgrade their extensions. Also, I'm sure there will be a lot of extensions in the first round that claim 1.6 compatibility, but sorta aren't. They will run on Joomla 1.6, but they don't use the new ACL, for example, and the developer is shortcutting the process just to say they're 1.6 compatible. If you experience that, you probably should wait until the next version of that extension where there's real compatibility. Again, that could take longer (depending on the developer) than the June/July timeframe and you're talking 1.7 (or whatever the version number will be) at that time.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by mcsmom » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:38 pm

If 1.5 works for you there is absolutely no reason to rush. 1.5 is a mature and extremely stable platform and there will be support for 1 year, which means actually you can wait until 1.8. That is the idea of the Long Term Support model.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by maguirre » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:41 am

jUpgrade v0.5.0 released. Comments and insults are welcome.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by mjl1817 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:33 pm

I have been waiting with baited breath for the 1.6 version so that I can begin to develop my community sites. I did not develop them in 1.5 because what was being done in 1.6 would enable me to accomplish what I wanted without spending a bundle of time and money to make it work.

My other sites work fine in 1.5 and there will be no need to upgrade them till the 1.7 version provides a migration tool.

My ability to plan all of this was possible to to the extensive information provided on the forums concerning both 1.5 and 1.6

Migration tool or no migration tool the developers on here have been doing a bang up job on joomla as a whole and no other cms program comes close to doing what joomla does.

All any of us who are doing planning need to do is devote time to research on the forums to get the needed answers, they almost always seem to be there (granted some are buried so deep they are difficult to find, but they are there).

My only question unanswered (bet it is but I just did not look deep enough) will we be able to upgrade from 1.6rc to 1.6 or will we need to fresh install or is this still an unknown at this point?

(gee looked and the answer jumped out and smacked me, upgrade to final will be available...)amazing what happens if you look :-[

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by birnik » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:55 am

mcsmom wrote:If 1.5 works for you there is absolutely no reason to rush. 1.5 is a mature and extremely stable platform and there will be support for 1 year, which means actually you can wait until 1.8. That is the idea of the Long Term Support model.
That's scary. There was supposed to be a "official" migrator for 16, there is none, there were supposed to be comments etc.
So let's say we wait till 1.7 or 1.8 to upgrade (i.e. skip 1.6.) and the PLT decides later on that 1.7 or 1.8 will not be backward compatible for 1.5 (in terms of migration)... I am personally scared, because the decisions are changing too often and too dramatically.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by masterchief » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:24 am

birnik wrote:That's scary. There was supposed to be a "official" migrator for 16, there is none, there were supposed to be comments etc.
So let's say we wait till 1.7 or 1.8 to upgrade (i.e. skip 1.6.) and the PLT decides later on that 1.7 or 1.8 will not be backward compatible for 1.5 (in terms of migration)... I am personally scared, because the decisions are changing too often and too dramatically.
Not so scary, but it is a balancing act. The PLT have to make decisions based on the resources they have (volunteers). So, we could decide to delay 1.6 for another year, or we can get it out there so the early adopters can start proving it.

As for 1.7 and 1.8, the roadmap's for these are completely driven by you, the community, and those wanting to put effort into implementation. The PLT can't force anyone to do anything, and at the other extreme it's not reasonable to think of the PLT as the people who are there to do your code bidding - it just doesn't happen that way. Our offices are our homes and we don't have a 9-to-5 workforce to give task lists. Such is the lot of an Open Source project ;) It's entirely possible that you won't like 1.7 and 1.8 at all, not because of PLT decisions, but because people have been interested in working on things that are of no use to you. That's part of the fun of choosing to use and Open Source product like Joomla. As the saying goes, you get what you pay for.

At any rate, Monday ushers in a new age for Joomla (and about time), one that will allow for more timely innovation and should help to attract more developers (because they aren't waiting 3 years to see the fruits of their labours). I'm not worried at all - it's more like "finally we can start writing cool software again" :) Chin up :)
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by RobbyRobby » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:58 am

ksandven wrote:One challenge with calling it 2.0 is that it brings too few improvements for the end-user. Lots of things have happened in the background, but they are not as noticable. It could be bad to release a new 'major' version of Joomla when the actual improvements for most end-users are few and far apart (as a lot of users won't need or understand advanced ACL).

Anyway, thank you for the clarification, Ron.
Hmm, i have to say i disagree. I mean, it's a CMS. It's all about the back-end. The front-end is what each person defines his/herself and doesn't really have to change from version to version. Every person in this forum for one probably are here because they have at least one Joomla site, which means that they are in the back-end all the time, thereby noticing the changes and additions added in each version. I think the reasons for calling it 2.0 are far better than those opposed either way. I mean, custom usergroups? That right there is huge. But i guess devs don't really care about the users when it comes to the name of their software. They've got principals to such matters that the rest of us probably don't understand that well.

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by jimo2305 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:17 pm

i'm pretty new to joomla and i started up on a site but it isn't live yet so if it means i have to wipe out 1.5 to put in 1.6 then that's fine.. but it still kind of makes me cringe because what if i have to upgrade or change to another more current version of joomla at the time. lol i'll test things with that jupgrade tho before i do any of the deleting :D

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by red2678 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:55 pm

...but it still kind of makes me cringe because what if i have to upgrade or change to another more current version of joomla...
+1

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by Tarun » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:04 pm

In this day and age there's no reason not to have an upgrade script for your web applications.

To top it off, for the longest time there was so much hype about how "easy" it would be to upgrade from 1.5 to 1.6.

What ever happened to that?

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by masterchief » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:51 pm

Tarun wrote:In this day and age there's no reason not to have an upgrade script for your web applications.
If we were Microsoft, I'd agree, but we aren't. My best advice is if you have the skills to help, contact Matias and "do something". If you don't have the skills to help, then you have to wait for the people who freely donate their time, or you can try to lobby one of the many Joomla companies around to donate some resources.

As for me, now that 1.6 is out, I can entertain giving some more of my time to Matias to give him a hand :)
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by red2678 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Is that how you respond to user concerns? Seems to be the norm....

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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by maguirre » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:28 pm

@red2678

The problem is that you do not understand the enormous effort made by developers working on free software projects. It is very easy to criticize and not try to help. I would like to find some constructive criticism in your words, but there are only accusations.

If you do not like the handling of this particular project, you have the code available to start your own branch of Joomla your way, which incidentally are hours of work of the developers donated to you.

I believe that to be part of a community have to accept certain norms of the community, and one of those rules is to help others.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by masterchief » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:56 am

red2678 wrote:Is that how you respond to user concerns? Seems to be the norm....
Users have a right to be concerned, and many of those concerns have directly shaped 1.6 and I've even personally coded some of them, but when you are getting something for free from someone else's efforts, you also have certain responsibilities. I don't like the fact that we don't have a core upgrade path, but we made a decision back in October '10 for that not to block the release (and we'd made numerous calls prior to that for a team to assemble to own that work). People have had 2 months to contribute to that and so far only one person to my knowledge, with very little help and to his credit, has taken up the challenge in any serious capacity. As I said, now that 1.6 is out I'll be able to allocate some time to that and hopefully others who are capable will follow suit.

So I *do* listen to user concerns but I'm less tolerant of people that are not concerned about who actually has to do the work, as long as they get it for nothing. The effort just to get 1.6 to this place was simply enormous and the migrator project is no trivial offering (to be honest, in hindsight I think the migrator side of things should always be a separate project from the main development arm, but that's something to brainstorm about another time). It's a pain in the backside we couldn't get one into core for yesterday's release, and believe me I do feel "how could I have done even more", but them's the brakes. Reasonable people, I think, can accept when you are dealing with a volunteer workforce, you aren't going to get what you want sometimes and they also realise that when they do get what they want, something else has been sacrificed to get it. No point in having a migration path if 1.6 is completely unusable.
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Re: migrate joomla 1.5 to joomla 1.6

Post by severdia » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:04 am

The bottom line is that Matias has a migrator. Have you tried it? Does it do the job?

If not, he's asking for feedback in order to improve it. Why not take an active part in the solution instead of whining about the problem?
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