Joomla 1.6 release fanfare but loyal users left in the cold

[igirisjin]

Its now the 2nd day after the long awaited release ... how many betas? 17, about 2 every month. Then the RC1 and 1.6 was put off from December to January to ' allow plenty of time to fix any remaining problems' ...

So its here and we've all been waiting - great big banner and special section promoting it. Most developers have been hard at work making sure components work with the new release, and ....

Nothing!

No upgrade information with release, nothing on the main pages, nothing in the documents...nothing, nothing, nothing.

I thought - no shortcuts, read the readme.txt file...

http://docs.joomla.org/Tutorial:Migrati ... Joomla_1.6
Still blank! Nothing.

In the installation directory;
migration.html
BLANK!

All this fuss about the release without preparing for thousands of users that want to upgrade - its a shambles.
I had to use google to eventually find this forum section with people who are having trouble upgrading.
It seems almost everyone using the jupgrade tool (not mentioned with the release) is having trouble.


Why isnt there a message about this on the front page of the release ... you know, like " sorry folks we are releasing it but dont get excited as we haven't sorted out the upgrade yet - 1.5 user cant use 1.6". Or perhaps " We are working on the migration for 1.5 users and it should be ready by ***".

Perhaps it would be better looking for an upgrade script from Drupal or Wordpress.

Looks like the final straw for Doomla.

[Tarun]

Well said. I see you too are experiencing and commenting on the same issues I mentioned earlier here.

[KeshQatar]

I thought I was the only one shocked by this unbelievable way of handling the release... I have been following Joomla for over a year and a half, waiting for 1.6... honestly I couldn't never understand why so many betas, and betas, and betas... (I use many other software products in so many different fields of application and levels of complexity and some of them are updated several times per year). But to then announce an exact date (I think I read about the date back in December) and finally post for download such a long awaited release without a trace of a word about installation or upgrade procedure is, well... unbelievable...

[armstead]

I'm torn because i appreciate all of the work that Joomla volunteers have put into this.

But it's kind of thumbing the nose at users by not having a reasonable upgrade procedure in place when it is released.

Seems like making it possible to upgrade should have been the first priority, instead of an afterthought.

[NEO-BAHAMUT-]

I have used all sorts, Wordpress, Simple Machines, Phpbb etc and have never seen anyone release a new version with out a simple way of upgrading to the latest version.

When ever anyone says anything about webdesing i usually point them in the direction of Joomla because of it's ease, reliability and support.

Kind of feels like i've been kicked in the teeth.

[k4lch]

Look at this
http://matware.com.ar/downloads/joomla/ ... 0-5-0.html

[RFDesigns]

I have been using Joomla for a few years now, I dont consider myself an expert, but im am certainly not a joomla noob. I have found new releases from the Joomla team a bit chaotic in the past and dont see it changing in the future, all dev teams have their priorities.

Does it take them a bit to get solid upgrade information and solid documentation on the new release? Yes.

Would we prefer to have the devs spend the significant time it requires to create this documentation before allowing us to open up the shiny new version?
Personally No

I know it's just my 2 cents but give the dev team some time to craft up the in depth documentation overload that the community is used to (im sure that it is on their todo list) and bear in mind the release isnt even 72 hours old. I'm unlikely to respond to this post however I just wanted to throw my hat in the ring to say that I appreciate the hard work that went into the release and keep up the good work.

[hernandoweb]

I too feel left out in the cold. After all the promo and hype of 1.6 it's really disappointing to be left with no concrete upgrade options other than a buggy third party component. I was looking to solve some user issues on existing sites with the better access control in 1.6.. Now I have to wait or change CMS.

I am also really offended when after all this time waiting for this touted product users fairly point out the omission of the upgrade path, and the developers turn around an say "what'd you expect for free". Grow up.They were the ones that taunted us with this for such a long time. Tease a dog with a bone for too long without giving it to him and expect to get bit!

[k4lch]

the upgrade from 1.0 to 1.5 didn't work properly until if I remember correctly 1.5.3 or 1.5.4 version also the last 3 betas there was some changes to the database,
if you look in the installation/mysql/ directory you will see a 1.5 to 1.6 sql file. Make a copy of your current 1.5 then import that file to the copied database should up date you 1.5 database to 1.6 this will work on core tables any component or module that you installed might not work correctly.

if you find any bugs list them in the 1.6 tracker so they can be fixed or if you fix one then add the fix to track also.
I currently doing a total rebuild of my site to change how categories are set so think of that approach

[jen4web]

Here are some instructions on the 1.5 to 1.6 migration:

http://cocoate.com/joomla-16-english/upgrade

[igirisjin]

Good luck with that then... sounds like a shot in the dark to me. If the components are not going to work properly no one is going to run a site live with users. And Im not going to waste time backing up, informing people, trying an upgrade and restoring after trouble.

Sound like we are still in beta.

If I remember correctly upgrade to 1.5 went very smoothly and there was a system in place and documentation when it was released.

Ive never seen anything like the release of 1.6 this way.
I guess if the developers wanted people to upgrade there would have been at least some mention of it in the download files - clearly their intention was to avoid people upgrading at this time as there is no mention of it anywhere except in discussion forums.

By not saying anything in the release files or on the main pages about upgrading they are making things worse.
Looks like all they wanted to do was keep in the race with Drupal and Wordpress that have recently released new versions.

Thanks for the 3rd party link on upgrade instructions but if the Joomla team havent published any I dont see any point.

[red2678]

+1....it's cold out here!

[micronaut]

hmm I seem to remember the upgrade from 1.0 to 1.5 being chuffin' horrendous, with 3 sites eventually being hosed and re-built from scratch with 1.5. I certainly don't trust the upgrade components this close to the release. Maybe in 6 months.

I think I'll leave all my existing sites on 1.5 and do new builds on 1.6.

"Take off and nuke the site from orbit - it's the only way to be sure."

[diavolo32]

I Joomla was in a race against Drupal and Wordpress, they've lose the game a long time ago. Why? Let's see Wordpress, the other CMS i use -for me is a CMS too-:

1) Wordpress is a one click update.

2) You can update not only core, but plugins, themes etc.

3) They don't have 1 thousand beta testing and one year for the next release.

4) You have all the docs you need with new updates, and what to change in database, etc. if it's necessary. 99% of times you don't need to do nothing. 3.0.x goes like a Ferrari.

5) I stop by now.

The question is: i have to update as my rivals or i got to offer a great CMS. The second. So, what about the documentation about migrating? They don't remember what happened with people who migrates to 1.0->1.5? The forum is full o posts about issues, data losts, fatal errors, etc.

So, you want people have a nightmare again? No, man. You should work in a one click upgrade, it's 2011. And i assume that next weeks will show something in the wiki, now there's a blank page.

The cost of these things is: you run with Wordpress and Drupal, but Wordpress -the community i know better- has a solid community, a solid project, growing, but Joomla has now thousands of angry 1.5 users, the 99% of Joomla! users in the world now, saying: please kick me again in my head, i don't understand what's happening here. Life's hard. That's not the way to do things in real life, so it's not the way in virtual life. Boys, do something. First, have the style to say something, a doc, an article, apologise, something, a small i'm sorry, we are working on it... Or say bye bye. Now you are losing the race and don't know yet. That's the great mistake.

[Tarun]

Here are some instructions on the 1.5 to 1.6 migration:

http://cocoate.com/joomla-16-english/upgrade

That guide would be a lot better if it didn't rely on that horrible jUpgrade which causes a LOT of data to get lost/broken.

[davetanguay]

Plain and simple, Joomla should not have hyped up 1.6 and had a release party until documentation and a core upgrade option was available. What was this release party for? To celebrate the shafting of the hundreds of thousands of existing Joomla site owners who got left out to pasture?

Yes it is free software but I feel there should be some sort of consideration taken into account for the current users of 1.5.x, such as providing an easy upgrade option. Please don’t respond to this post and say jupgrade is available since according to the posts I have been reading about, it's not worth the attempt. And I feel it is irresponsible to leave the only upgrade option in the lap of a third party component developer. An upgrade option should have been built into the core. This should have been 1st priority.

The thousands of Joomla customers we have are not going to be too happy when they discover they are going to have to fork out more money to a developer to basically rebuild their existing site in 1.6. I've already had a few support tickets from confused customers on how to upgrade. Some sort of migration or upgrade tool should have been built into the core of 1.6.

For new sites, Joomla 1.6 sounds great, but for the hundreds of thousands of existing Joomla sites out there I foresee most will not be upgrading anytime soon.

I don't recall WordPress or Drupal ever having this problem and this is not the first time Joomla has done this to the user community. Remember 1.0? It seems every time Joomla comes out with a new branch, it's a nightmare for the site owner... unless of course they are a developer. In fact we still have some customers running Joomla 1.0.x because they do not have any money budgeted to handle the Joomla "migration".

A core upgrade component should be release in the next version of Joomla 1.6.x in my opinion. If Joomla 1.6 is such an awesome groundbreaking CMS (as it was hyped up to be) it should include 1-click upgrade and/or documentation on upgrading.

[mcsmom]

"Joomla" is YOU. It's not some person out there blocking you from opening files!

Have you been posting your questions on the development lists all through the last 7 months of beta and RC? Have you opened the API and written up your versions of it?

Ther area 108 1.6 extensions right there on JED< if the API were so confusing there wouldn't be.

As has been said at every release of beta and RC, progress always depends on the community's time spent doing the work, pelase jump in and write the docs you need.

You Make the Road By Walking.

[davetanguay]

"Joomla" is YOU. It's not some person out there blocking you from opening files!

Have you been posting your questions on the development lists all through the last 7 months of beta and RC? Have you opened the API and written up your versions of it?

Ok so I guess it's the end user's fault that there is not a upgrade option in the core. Nice! I'm not a programmer so there is not much I could have done to contribute other than give my opinion of what I felt should be included in 1.6 core.

I didn't post anything related to this on the development list because I was under the impression the people responsible for 1.6 would have learned from the mistaken of a no upgrade option from 1.0 to 1.5 in its core.

Maybe next time I should not assume those responsible were actually listening to what users need.

I was excited to hear that 1.6 was released but that excitement was halted when I discoverd this was another 1.0-1.5 "migration".

I'm tired of the egoistical developers dishing off the responsibility to those who are complaining about the lack of an upgrade option. The developers were ultimately responsible for the release.

If you search this forum you will see users voiced their opinions about the Joomla 1.0 to 1.5 "migration" already. It's disappointing that those responsible for 1.6 did not take this into consideration.

[mcsmom]

Why do you want to migrate? What needs does your site have today that it didn't have on Sunday?

I guarantee that there are people out there right now that will write you sql and update your template. Just check the JRD or if you want cheaper go to oDesk or someplace.

[KeshQatar]

"Joomla" is YOU. It's not some person out there blocking you from opening files!

Have you been posting your questions on the development lists all through the last 7 months of beta and RC? Have you opened the API and written up your versions of it?

Ther area 108 1.6 extensions right there on JED< if the API were so confusing there wouldn't be.

As has been said at every release of beta and RC, progress always depends on the community's time spent doing the work, pelase jump in and write the docs you need.

You Make the Road By Walking.

Unbelievable...I think I can continue to use that word, now in the particular case of the above response.

I don't want to imagine what the CMS reviews are going to say in 2011 about Joomla. Latest reviews were not precisely sweet. The handling of this release will severely impact Joomla's reputation, despite the amazing capabilities of Joomla, its power, its simplicity and the countless extensions available to do almost everything.

This release was a HUGE mistake. In a professional environment a situation like this would easily put some heads rolling, and quickly.

Managing software projects is almost a science and demands knowledge, maturity and LOTS of management skills. Unfortunately, I am not detecting any signs here of good management. I am just another user and I love Joomla but can't hide the sun with a finger and can not accept blame for this. The development team should recognize they need to reassess the way they are handling tasks and priorities, and if they need management skills to be added, be honest and find them. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging weaknesses, it's actually a sign of strenght.


It is not only the current community of users and developers that will be impacted by the poor handling of this release. I remember me when I was searching for a CMS system. I did search in internet and read about Wordpress, Drupal and Joomla, and finally opted for Joomla. I am happy I did but I doubt a new, potential user would select Joomla after reading the posts on 1.6 installation/upgrade.

...Not to mention when they find that 1.6 took years...and was posted without a single word on installation.

[phill104]

I really do not see what all your problems are. Will your 1.5.x site suddenly stop working simply because a new version is out?

From a practical point of view building a component into the Joomla core that would only be required once makes no sense at all. Especially as a component would alsp be required on the old site end. Do you really want the extra bloat just to save you a few minutes work?

Manuals are all very well but have any of you who are complaining offered to step up to the mark and help write them? Nope, though not. Before you complain think of all the work that has been put in to creating what in my mind is an absolutely superb product.

Some of you may even earn a living out of it. If that is the case then you are getting a top rate product to sell to your customers and are basically complaining that you are having to invest some effort into your money making exploits. For those of you who are using it for personnal projects what is the rush to upgrade, none at all as far as I can see.

From a developers point of view (not on this project but another open source project) a huge amount of time is put into creating the best possible product they can given their available resources. They do not owe you anything and most do it as a hobby. Even so they spend many hours of their spare time building something for you, the user. How would you feel if users who are getting many hours of your valuable time and effort for free start demanding more? Nope, didn't think you would like that feeling.

So please, instead of wasting your time moaning do something constructive. Work on the docs, share your experiences and then help others update.

[davetanguay]

Why do you want to migrate? What needs does your site have today that it didn't have on Sunday?

With all of the hype Joomla announced with 1.6 I thought it would be an excellent upgrade but I can see I'll need to wait.

I wasn't interested in upgrading anytime soon but am trying to prepare for the future. We all know 1.5.x will no longer be supported just like 1.0.x was.

Eventually sites will need to be upgraded for the pure fact of getting support for Joomla on these forums. I know it's not going to happen anytime soon, but it happened to 1.0. Just trying to prepare myself and my customer base for future use and support with Joomla.

[iikozen]

It would really be wonderful if we could have all the solutions for all our needs immediately and for free.
The fact is that we don't!
Meanwhile, Joomla! has 2 stable releases:

1.5.22 stable, which will still be maintained for over a year, with over 6670 extensions on JED, most of them well know worldwide and free.

1.6 GA (stable), with over 100 extensions on JED.

We can keep our "old" sites running on 1.5.22, start new projects with 1.6 or 1.5.22 (if we wish) and try to migrate when the easiest and most efficient solution is presented that we feel confortable with.

Thank you Joomla! Teams and Contributors!

[Ace__]

Joomla 1.6 is designed, developed, translated, and documented by volunteers who are paid nothing for their time and efforts.

Many of the responders in this thread actually profit from the hard work provided from those volunteers. Maybe instead of writing long letter of complaint you would put some to that effort into actually contributing to Joomla? Or are you in too much of a hurry to tell your client there is an update ready that you will be happy to implement for a small fee? (Just as soon as someone else does all the work in writing a migration script)

For those that would like to contribute... you can do it here. Don't all rush now!

[davetanguay]

They do not owe you anything and most do it as a hobby.

Yes they do. If they are going to take on the responsibility of being a core developer of an open source project they need to listen to the users and their needs. If they can't take that into account then they should find a new hobby. There are hundreds of thousands of sites currently using Joomla 1.5.x. The developers of Joomla do need to consider an easy upgrade path since most of the Joomla sites I see are managed by non-tech users.

It IS the responsibility of the developers to take this into consideration instead of placing the blame on the users.

Joomla 1.6 is designed, developed, translated, and documented by volunteers who are paid nothing for their time and efforts.

See above. If they are going to volunteer then they need to realize they are taking on a huge responsibility and listen to the user base and their needs.

Many of the responders in this thread actually profit from the hard work provided from those volunteers. Maybe instead of writing long letter of complaint you would put some to that effort into actually contributing to Joomla? Or are you in too much of a hurry to tell your client there is an update ready that you will be happy to implement for a small fee? (Just as soon as someone else does all the work in writing a migration script)

Yes I profit from this project and have supported it for years. I'm not a programmer but I do what I can. I've spent countless hours, days and weeks on providing support to users on this forum on my free time (checkout my post count). I feel I have the right to express my opinion on the software whether without patronized!

I just wish some of these programmers would get over themselves. Yes we know you are volunteers… just please at least listen to the users instead of placing the blame on them or suggesting they don’t do anything for the project. I for one have done plenty and still continue to do so.

This is me doing something for the project! Listen!!!

I'm not saying we need to upgrade to 1.6 today but can you core programmers that are reading this please consider developing a 1-click update option to 1.6?

[KeshQatar]

Why do you want to migrate? What needs does your site have today that it didn't have on Sunday?"

Am I missing something here? After all the hype about 1.6 for yearS...(yes, more than one)? Of course people may want to migrate or need to do it! That question is irrelevant. OMG... That is so NOT the point.

The FACT IS this release was handled (and continues to be handled) VERY POORLY, open source or not...voluntary work or not... If the documentation is NOT READY then DO NOT release. If installation/upgrade/migration info is NOT READY then DO NOT RELEASE. It is very simple in the end.

They do not owe you anything and most do it as a hobby. Even so they spend many hours of their spare time building something for you, the user. How would you feel if users who are getting many hours of your valuable time and effort for free start demanding more? Nope, didn't think you would like that feeling.

Nobody would do charity work according to the above...The principle is: if you volunteer for something, do it the best you can. We all have an obligation to do our best IN ALL SITUATIONS. If you volunteer to anything without any sense of responsibility to others, you better not volunteer.

I don't think a big banner on the home page reading ""WE OWE YOU NOTHING" is going to attract many users...

Don't get me wrong, I understand your point, and I appreciate the incredible product Joomla is, thanks to its developers and their time, but again, a mistake is a mistake. We all do them. It's time to step up and admit it, as the first step to correct it.

[Robert_Vining]

I'm not saying we need to upgrade to 1.6 today but can you core programmers that are reading this please consider developing a 1-click update option to 1.6?

That's what Matias jupgrade component does. Install it in 1.5, and it downloads 1.6, migrates the core content and installs it into a fresh new Joomla 1.6 installation.

I'm not seeing how it can be any simpler?

[phill104]

Let's put it another way, developers around the globe were awaiting the stable release before they started working hard on their extensions. Would you rather a release that developers could begin working on now, one users could begin learning on. Or would you rather wait for the developers to do loads of work writing guides and then have to wait even longer? With a stable release now available users will begin using it. With a greater number of users actively using Joomla 1.6 hopefully more documentaion contributions will come rolling in. In the mean time let the developers develop and stop making demands on them. Would you rather they walk away? You would only have yourselves to blame if they did.

The whole project relies on its community for contribution. Most developers are giving all their spare time to create the code. Many do not speak English and of those that do only a small percentage are any good at writing good documentation. The docs will come over time. If you think that just because you don't have them right this instant that gives you the right to berate those who have put tons of effort in on your behalf then you are sadly mistaken.

As for a one click upgrade, should you not have proposed that before the feature freeze stage and not at the final release? We've had a year to request that have we not?

In my mind a one click update is never going to work.For it to work it relies on too many variable completely out of the control of the core developers. Have you ever tried to shage from one template to another? Even that is never easy. With the amount of changes that have been made to Joomla 1.6 too many things would be up to the user as to how they want them The current upgrade path is simple enough IMO and I am sure that over the coming weeks varioust community contributios will come along to help streamline the procedure. In the mean time there is plenty of money to be made for the astute web developer to charge the lazy for upgrading. Those of us willing to put the effort into learning will find it a very worthwhile task. And as Robert so astutely puts, there already are migration component available to take out most of the donkey work.

[diavolo32]

"Joomla" is YOU. It's not some person out there blocking you from opening files!

Have you been posting your questions on the development lists all through the last 7 months of beta and RC? Have you opened the API and written up your versions of it?

Ther area 108 1.6 extensions right there on JED< if the API were so confusing there wouldn't be.

As has been said at every release of beta and RC, progress always depends on the community's time spent doing the work, pelase jump in and write the docs you need.

You Make the Road By Walking.

Unbelievable...I think I can continue to use that word, now in the particular case of the above response.

I don't want to imagine what the CMS reviews are going to say in 2011 about Joomla. Latest reviews were not precisely sweet. The handling of this release will severely impact Joomla's reputation, despite the amazing capabilities of Joomla, its power, its simplicity and the countless extensions available to do almost everything.

This release was a HUGE mistake. In a professional environment a situation like this would easily put some heads rolling, and quickly.

Managing software projects is almost a science and demands knowledge, maturity and LOTS of management skills. Unfortunately, I am not detecting any signs here of good management. I am just another user and I love Joomla but can't hide the sun with a finger and can not accept blame for this. The development team should recognize they need to reassess the way they are handling tasks and priorities, and if they need management skills to be added, be honest and find them. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging weaknesses, it's actually a sign of strenght.


It is not only the current community of users and developers that will be impacted by the poor handling of this release. I remember me when I was searching for a CMS system. I did search in internet and read about Wordpress, Drupal and Joomla, and finally opted for Joomla. I am happy I did but I doubt a new, potential user would select Joomla after reading the posts on 1.6 installation/upgrade.

...Not to mention when they find that 1.6 took years...and was posted without a single word on installation.

I'm with you. I can't belive sucha an answer. The thinking of the answer starts from an error: final user is no the developers team, and they have responsability. Or if joomla.org mine? I planned the meetings of Joomla! around the world? That's demagogic, men. Is a very poor handling of these release, and of course in real life, in real life, heads rolling, sure. 48 hours and no official article about these controversial affaire. Bad news.

[davetanguay]

That's what Matias jupgrade component does. Install it in 1.5, and it downloads 1.6, migrates the core content and installs it into a fresh new Joomla 1.6 installation.

I'm not seeing how it can be any simpler?

Simple for you and me yes, but not simple for the thousands of non-tech users we host Joomla sites for. They would still have to hire a designer to migrate, install and customize their template & extensions.

jupgrade might be simple to you, but not to the vast majority of the non-tech Joomla users out there.

With the fact that Joomla will no longer support version 1.5.x in the far far future, 1.5.x site owners now need to hire a designer again to get their site migrated/rebuilt.