The Saga Continues...

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Nick Savov
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Re: The Saga Continues...

Post by Nick Savov » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:35 pm

davetanguay wrote:
Jenny wrote:You honestly think that the people that contribute in all areas of the project don't actually use Joomla? That the people on the development teams and production team don't actually use Joomla on a daily basis? And now you are saying those that contribute to development and those on the Dev Team and Production Team aren't allowed to speak up?

You have to be joking I think. Not one bit of that statement makes a lick of sense.
I don't think that is what he was trying to say. Of course the dev team uses Joomla for projects.

His response was in regards to the many posters on this thread that shot down any end-users who were voicing their opinion. red never complained about anyone voicing their opinion. Just because a person is only an end-user and not on the dev team, this doesn't mean they can't voice their opinion.

Yes the dev team uses Joomla as well but I think his point was that there are hundreds of thousands more end-users than there are people on the dev team. For the end-users to be called whiners and to be continuously belittled for voicing their opinion is downright childish and unproductive.

End users should be able to voice their opinion without be ridiculed or patronized.

You don't have to be on the dev team to contribute, so people stop asking stupid questions like "What have you don't for the dev team lately?". Everyone has their role in this project, including end-users. You don't have to contribute directly to the dev team to voice your opinion on the project.

A project that doesn't listen to their end-users is doomed to fail.

I know I for one have done plenty for this project and feel I have been belittled, ridiculed and patronized for my opinions on the "migration" path.

Obviously the dev team has listened according to the recent post at The Path Forward: Migration and the Future
Did you read his initial post? He wasn't simply voicing his opinion. He was being outright rude.

The dev team, if you read the forum posts (which I think you have because you and I have been posting in the same discussion where it was said and it was said in other discussions), has planned everything that was said in there (http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leade ... uture.html) long before anyone started complaining. So it's not that they listened to the complaining and changed their ways. They planned this long before anyone started complaining.
Last edited by Nick Savov on Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Saga Continues...

Post by Nick Savov » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:39 pm

as a p.s. I am really not trying to belittle anyone! :(

Voice your opinions, go ahead!

Just don't be rude is all I am saying.
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Re: The Saga Continues...

Post by nikko500 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:08 pm

@unworthyslave
You say a lot but say nothing.
My opinion.................

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Re: The Saga Continues...

Post by davetanguay » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:17 pm

unworthyslave, I thought we were going to stop patronizing and belittling people? Yes that is what you are doing.

Also red is not just speaking for himself but for all of the Joomla site owners he has built sites for and manages.

Just like with my opinions, I am speaking for the hundreds if not thousands of Joomla sites on our servers. So in reality, I am speaking for a group much larger than the entire dev team and much larger than the the group of posters on this thread.

Also yes Joomla does owe end-users something. They owe the decency to at least listen to their opinions without being belittled and patronized. Even if the opinions are complaints this does not give other users the right to belittle the poster.

Also, if site owners choose to use Joomla they expect an easy upgrade path to keep up with the core. This is true with any software. Developers for any software have the responsibility of providing an upgrade path to its users. If they don’t the new version could simply dissolve and less users will continue to use the software, especially when there are viable alternatives available.

Anyone who has any real experience using Joomla and who manages sites (more than 5 or so) for customers knows that migrations can be a nightmare and adds additional costs to their project that other CMS's don't require. Yes I understand they are not required to upgrade now, but if they want any type of support in the future (after 15 months) they will need to migrate.

If there are any "complainers" on this form it is the people complaining about the end-user's opinions. Comments like "What have you done for the dev team" and "stop whining and complaining" don't add an substance to this thread. They are attacks on the posters. It basically just shows you don’t agree with our opinion. That's fine, but please people let's stop this childish behavior.

How about we look at it from a different perspective…

Our voices are not complaints, but advice for future versions if Joomla wants to remain a popular CMS for non-tech users. Though red's intial post on this thread may have been a little harsh, it is his opinion about the project and he has the right to express it without being attacked.

I understand many of you feel the direction 1.6 took is fine for YOUR needs, but in reality it will require non-tech users to fork out money for a new site rebuild or to move to a different CMS if branch "migrations" are going to be a habit. If "migrations" are going to be a habit of Joomla (which they are according to its development strategy) I see Joomla turning into a developer's CMS and no longer being a CMS for non-tech users.

I think what most of our Joomla site owners are unhappy with is the template support. They all understand third party extensions will need to be upgraded (if supported) but it would have been nice if 1.5 templates worked in 1.6 since this would not have required a site rebuild for most sites.

If a migration of data and the template could have been possible, it would have saved the site owners' designers plenty of hours. Having to use a new template usually requires all of the customizations to be done all over again.
Last edited by davetanguay on Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Saga Continues...

Post by red2678 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:35 pm

as a p.s. I am really not trying to belittle anyone!
That is exactly what you just did. Did you read your posts before you hit the submit button? I am not even going to respond your immature postings anymore, beacause I see what you are all about now.

@unworthyslave
You say a lot but say nothing.
You said it +1

@davetanguay
Man you are so right on. I agree with everything you are posting! I could not have said it better. PS Got you PM, gonna respond after work ROFL, I totally remember you! :]

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Re: The Saga Continues...

Post by Nick Savov » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:42 pm

@everyone

Sorry, it was not my intent to offend anyone. However, I still stand by the things that I said.
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Re: The Saga Continues...

Post by Jenny » Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:23 pm

Let's not start pointing fingers about who is belittling and demeaning whom, remember when you point your finger at someone else, three fingers point back at yourself.

It all comes down to the project being a community driven and contributed project made up of people from all backgrounds, experience levels, and expectations. With millions of users and sites there is no possible way to please everyone all the time. That would be impossible.

Everyone does their best and should be respected for that. Belittling the work that others do for your benefit is not only bad manners, but drives the very people that do the work away, and when that happens, everything stops.

Take a breather, realize that the blog posting was already communicated in various mediums across the official sites and mailing lists for the last 6 months or even longer, so the complaining, rudeness and demeaning of others that this thread comprised of did nothing to spur action or generate any sort of positivity. There is nothing in most of this thread that anyone should be patting themselves on the back for or congratulating themselves about as some victory, as there is nothing victorious about being rude and uncivil.
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Re: The Saga Continues...

Post by red2678 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:48 pm

I will say this lastly; I do not feel like I was trying to “win” here or feel that I have. Moreover, I started this thread because I felt like I was "losing," and still do. I stand by what I have said though and I do not care what anyone will say to this but, I feel that this thread and other threads in this forum posted by numerous Joomla users, have influenced some the decisions and will influence future decisions within the Joomla org (regarding upgrading and migration), and I am happy about that. Also, I do not feel that I was being rude. While I await the barrage of attacks I say, please just lock this thread; we are way off topic anyway.

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Re: The Saga Continues...

Post by davetanguay » Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:50 pm

Jenny, if someone is going to be rude and uncivil towards me or my opinions, I will make they aware that this is not the correct way to move forward with this project. It's beyond childish if you ask me. If they want to point 3 fingers back at me that is just fine... I still have remained civil.

Yes I will congratulate myself and pat myself on the back for voicing my honest opinion about the software (while staying civil) even after repeatedly being belittled by others on this forum. Us "complainers" have been referred to as ignorant, brainless, lazy, freeloaders, amongst other things in other threads. Still I have remained civil.

Whether or not the dev team decided to make future versions more upgrade friendly before or after our opinions were voiced, I do know we have been heard.

I agree that the complaining and belittling has done nothing to spur actions but I do feel my posts have been heard and considered by the dev team... which I do feel is a victory and my entire purpose for posting to threads like this.
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Re: The Saga Continues...

Post by keoni » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:52 am

The dev team, if you read the forum posts (which I think you have because you and I have been posting in the same discussion where it was said and it was said in other discussions), has planned everything that was said in there (http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leade ... uture.html) long before anyone started complaining. So it's not that they listened to the complaining and changed their ways. They planned this long before anyone started complaining.
If this was planned long in advance then, as I said in my original post, it should have been posted the day Joomla 1.6 was released along with the release post. That would have made sense and would have avoided this whole argument.

And I don't believe "red" is trying to speak for everyone. He is only stating his own opinion which to me is a very valid point of view and one that many here share.

Whether or not all the complaining has opened the developers eyes I cannot say, but it sure seems like it has had an effect. Remember, your users are your most valuable asset and they need to be listened to. Where would Joomla be today if many users had not influenced others to try Joomla? I was influenced by another user who offered to help me develop one of my sites in Joomla. As a result, now I am working on a second Joomla site and I have encouraged a friend to try Joomla instead of Wordpress.

I'm happy that in July 2011 there will be a proper upgrade procedure. I can wait for that but I hope it's a worthy effort and I think it will be after the current uproar.

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Re: The Saga Continues...

Post by Nick Savov » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:48 pm

keoni wrote:
The dev team, if you read the forum posts (which I think you have because you and I have been posting in the same discussion where it was said and it was said in other discussions), has planned everything that was said in there (http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leade ... uture.html) long before anyone started complaining. So it's not that they listened to the complaining and changed their ways. They planned this long before anyone started complaining.
If this was planned long in advance then, as I said in my original post, it should have been posted the day Joomla 1.6 was released along with the release post. That would have made sense and would have avoided this whole argument.
Perhaps I should clarify. My statement was in response to:
davetanguay wrote: Obviously the dev team has listened according to the recent post at The Path Forward: Migration and the Future
So, i.e., he posted in this dicussion: http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f ... 7#p2383827

and if had read the entire discussion he should have know what had been planned. This guy (as well as I) got the picture for example:
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p ... 9#p2373779

I wasn't trying to be mean about what I said, I was just pointing out that his "obviously" is wrong and that their complaining is what achieved the outcome.
keoni wrote: If this was planned long in advance then, as I said in my original post, it should have been posted the day Joomla 1.6 was released along with the release post. That would have made sense and would have avoided this whole argument.
I agree. There should have been at least a link to more documentation about it.

keoni wrote: Whether or not all the complaining has opened the developers eyes I cannot say, but it sure seems like it has had an effect. Remember, your users are your most valuable asset and they need to be listened to. Where would Joomla be today if many users had not influenced others to try Joomla? I was influenced by another user who offered to help me develop one of my sites in Joomla. As a result, now I am working on a second Joomla site and I have encouraged a friend to try Joomla instead of Wordpress.
While I agree that Joomla wouldn't be anywhere where it is today without it's users, you also have to ask where would Joomla be today without its developers and also keep in mind that the developers are also part of the users?

The way some (please note, I don't mean all...I don't even mean most) users have responded would likely be very discouraging to the developers and leave the developers asking if it's even worth their time. After all, these people put in 3 years working for free and were excited to give us Joomla 1.6 finally stable, and then some jerk comes in and tears them to pieces, criticizing them that they were idiots and why hadn't they made a migration script, etc, etc. If the developers aren't in it, there is no Joomla, period. If people don't contribute, there is no community.

You made some very, very good points in your previous post and voiced your concerns very well. I agreed with 99% of what you said. However, the issue that I am struggling with is the relationship and the balance between
***** Manual signatures are NOT allowed ********** Manual signatures are NOT allowed *****
1) A free open-source cms driven by a community effort where countless volunteer hours have been put into the project

and

2) Something you have agreed upon and paid for.
***** Manual signatures are NOT allowed ********** Manual signatures are NOT allowed *****_

I understand that we can voice our concerns as the users, however I really don't believe we have room to complain, be rude, or get angry about anything (and please don't misunderstand, I don't think you have done that at all). Nothing is owed to us. We haven't agreed upon or paid for anything, so we're not Joomla's client's.

One person who was upset about something (I think it may have been the migration script), when I told him that nothing was owed to him, part of his response was that he had bought a Joomla t-shirt and clicked on ads. I say that to show how silly and arrogant people's attitudes are to receiving something free and thinking they some how earned it. Using it is not earning it. Just because we used Joomla 1.5 does not mean that we deserve a migration script to 1.6 and that we have a right to be angry at other who labored for free to get Joomla 1.6 to us (again not saying you have done this, but other certainly have).

Not only that, but Joomla is community driven. No man could do any of this on his own. Everything that we have today is because a group of people got together and accomplished it in the spirit of open source. But who/what is the community?

To use an extreme example, someone who has download Joomla one time, installed it on a server, was displeased with the product, came to the forum ranting about his displeasure, and then used some other cms or created a site from scratch, is not part of the community.

I also don't consider someone who owns a site and paid a developer to create it and has no idea that it's Joomla based and never even touches the backend, to be part of the community either. Joo-what? Commu-huh? This type of person is the developer's customer and has no relationship to the Joomla community.

However, someone who actively contributes to Joomla to the best of their capacity (however large or small) is part of the community.

All of us on the forums are between these extremes, but are we part of the community?

My big question is am I part of the community if all I do is develop websites for my clients using Joomla? Or use it myself for my own personal site? After writing this post, I would say no. Unless you have a really, really, really loose definition of community.
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And as someone who is not part of the community, I have very little room to insult community efforts and neither do others who are not part of the community.

I am certainly trying to be more involved and trying to help out more for the common good (also knowing that in the long run it would benefit me). In the mean time I am just extremely thankful that we have Joomla 1.6 here. It is a big milestone and I am grateful for all the people who put in a lot of hours to get us to where we are.

keoni wrote: I'm happy that in July 2011 there will be a proper upgrade procedure. I can wait for that but I hope it's a worthy effort
Me too! It will make it a lot easier to manage sites! :)
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