Why Migrating Should NOT be in the core:

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rand486
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Why Migrating Should NOT be in the core:

Post by rand486 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:05 pm

Lots of discord in the Joomla forums over the topic of migration. I have no affiliation with the Joomla development team, I'm just a user. So here we go:

The reason as I see it, as to why the migrator shouldn't be built into the Joomla 1.6 core is simple:

Migration is only useful to a subset of users, ONCE per site. Granted, many of us want to migrate now, but as time goes on, fewer and fewer users will need it. After a user migrates, it is useless, extra code. Extra code is bad because:

1) It increases the size of the Joomla CMS, and increases the demand on a web server. For code that is only used once, this is ridiculous. This is the same reason Joomla is so extensible. Imagine a version of Joomla that came with Joomfish, Docman, JEvents, CB, sh404sef, Simple Image Gallery, Suckerfish menus, JoomBible, JCE editor, JUMI and everything else that different subsets of users consider "mandatory" in their site. The sheer size, and amount of memory required from a web server would be ridiculous.

2) Extra code means extra time. They were already pressed for release, and people were already griping about how long it took to release in the first place.

Joomla is built as an extensible CMS. My view of it is that it is a nice, tight framework that I extend to do what I want. If I want to move from one framework to the next, I can then get an extension that will let me do so (or develop my own, using the phenomenal developer resources and file/database architecture they've laid out).

Please, for my sanity, and for the sake of the VOLUNTEER developers writing this CMS, just give it a few more days/weeks. The extension will arrive. If it isn't fast enough, do what I'm doing: Write a basic script to do it yourself.

If you can't, well then you're taking Joomla for granted.

As for those of you threatening to move away from Joomla, consider this: At least Joomla 1.6 will eventually HAVE a migrator. Can you find a one-click migration tool to go from Joomla 1.5 to any other CMS? Good luck with that one.

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Re: Why Migrating Should NOT be in the core:

Post by trouble » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:28 pm

Lol, I actually don't agree with anything you have just said! I think you've completely missed the point.

And you would remove the installation folder after installation Joomla, so why couldn't it be the same for an official migration?

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Re: Why Migrating Should NOT be in the core:

Post by rand486 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:47 pm

trouble, I'm well aware of your stance, I've seen it all over these threads. I find your name ironic.

Tell me, do you know any HTML/CSS/PHP/MySQL, or are you one of the people criticizing the developers out of a strange sense of entitlement? If you do know how to code, why are you complaining instead of contributing?

In either case, have you donated to the Joomla project? If you haven't donated, you haven't given them a reason to help you out at all, have you? Where does the idea that you "deserve" anything come from?

As for removing the installation folder: Let's suppose it's as simple as that. So from here on in, in EVERY SINGLE install of Joomla 1.6 for the rest of its existence, you'd have EVERY SINGLE user perform additional steps, just to accomodate a single wave of one-time migrators? Usability studies have shown that for every step you add onto an installation/form/survey, you exponentially lose users.

You have to realize, as much as it sucks (and I am one of the people who need to migrate, in fact several sites), this is a one time deal. For the rest of 1.6's lifespan, these demands for a core migrator will be a nuisance, or a draw on server power, and/or so many other things.

Think of how many people will download 1.6, and how small the number of 1.5->1.6 migrators will be over the lifespan of 1.6.

I wonder how many people will gripe once the migrator is finished... Personally, I started writing my own script to migrate articles over from 1.5 to 1.6 shortly after I created this thread, and I'm nearly done. However, the comments of negativity and self-importance make it very difficult for me to want to share the script. Ridiculous.

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Re: Why Migrating Should NOT be in the core:

Post by trouble » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:21 pm

rand486,

Again, IMHO I don't agree with anything you have said in your post.

What are you talking about? Whether you install 1.6 fresh and have to delete the installation directory, or have a core migration tool from 1.5 to 1.6 (and have the theoretical migration directory to delete) then you have to delete one or the other anyway! Like it is really a big deal... Deleting one or two directories is not going to lose users lol. On the other hand, no upgrade or migration path is likely to lose users!

"Single wave of one-time migrators"? We're talking about the overwhelming majority of Joomla users who made the project popular!
"One time deal"? Like migrating from 1.0 -> 1.5, and now 1.5 to 1.6. What about 1.6 -> 1.7 or 2.0?

I am fluent in all four of those technologies you have listed. I give as much time as I can to all kinds of open source projects, and design and manage several non-profit charitable web sites.

What am I doing now? I am debugging a problem with the jUpgrade extension to help people migrate! At least I am putting my valuable time towards something community based and not a self indulgent script.

I am leaving this conversation here, because it is inevitably going nowhere.
Last edited by trouble on Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why Migrating Should NOT be in the core:

Post by diavolo32 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:36 pm

trouble wrote:rand486,

Again, IMHO I don't agree with anything you have said in your post.

What are you talking about? Whether you install 1.6 fresh and have to delete the installation directory, or have a core migration tool from 1.5 to 1.6 (and have the theoretical migration directory to delete) then you have to delete one or the other anyway! Like it is really a big deal... Deleting one or two directories is not going to lose users lol.
"Single wave of one-time migrators"? We're talking about the overwhelming majority of Joomla users who made the project popular!
"One time deal"? Like migrating from 1.0 -> 1.5, and now 1.5 to 1.6. What about 1.6 -> 1.7 or 2.0?

I am fluent in all four of those technologies you have listed. I give as much time as I can to all kinds of open source projects, and design and manage several non-profit charitable web sites.

What am I doing now? I am debugging a problem with the jUpgrade extension to help people migrate! At least I am putting my valuable time towards something community based and not a self indulgent script.

I am leaving this conversation here, because it is inevitably going nowhere.
Well done. And thanks for your contribution: if your debugg finish and wants to help de thousands of 1.5.x users, hey!, that's the way contribution works too, not only money.
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Re: Why Migrating Should NOT be in the core:

Post by rand486 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:37 pm

trouble wrote:Like it is really a big deal... Deleting one or two directories is not going to lose users lol.
Usability studies disagree with you.

I wonder, if I spent a large portion of time writing a program that made coffee for you, and let you use it; then I wrote another program that makes better coffee - and espresso, would you naturally expect I let you use that one as well?

If I did let you use the second program, would you expect ME to then take all your coffee, and make it into better coffee? Even after you've added cream and sugar to it?

But I digress. Good, I'm glad you are helping with the Migrator extension, if that's true. Hopefully, when it's done, most of this self-important "What about me, me, me?" attitude will fade from the forums.

As for the self-indulgent script, I can hardly work on an open source extension as part of my 9-5 job, can I? The script migrates over the articles and data from several custom extensions we've written for our site. I intended to share a cut-down version of the script that would migrate articles (without sections and categories info), but lost interest when I saw how arrogant and self-important people were being.

I KNOW that not all people would benefit from the script, and I don't want this idiotic rage turned on me, because again, as soon as something's free, people expect it to work perfectly, and with 100% support.

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Re: Why Migrating Should NOT be in the core:

Post by luishorta » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:51 am

trouble wrote:rand486,

Again, IMHO I don't agree with anything you have said in your post.

What are you talking about? Whether you install 1.6 fresh and have to delete the installation directory, or have a core migration tool from 1.5 to 1.6 (and have the theoretical migration directory to delete) then you have to delete one or the other anyway! Like it is really a big deal... Deleting one or two directories is not going to lose users lol. On the other hand, no upgrade or migration path is likely to lose users!

"Single wave of one-time migrators"? We're talking about the overwhelming majority of Joomla users who made the project popular!
"One time deal"? Like migrating from 1.0 -> 1.5, and now 1.5 to 1.6. What about 1.6 -> 1.7 or 2.0?

I am fluent in all four of those technologies you have listed. I give as much time as I can to all kinds of open source projects, and design and manage several non-profit charitable web sites.

What am I doing now? I am debugging a problem with the jUpgrade extension to help people migrate! At least I am putting my valuable time towards something community based and not a self indulgent script.

I am leaving this conversation here, because it is inevitably going nowhere.

I agree 100% with you!!!

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Re: Why Migrating Should NOT be in the core:

Post by trouble » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:17 am

luishorta wrote:I agree 100% with you!!!
Thanks! ;)

However, a moderator has now sent me a warning for trolling.

Consequently I now have to moderate my opinions.

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Re: Why Migrating Should NOT be in the core:

Post by Torettox84 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:55 am

trouble wrote:
luishorta wrote:I agree 100% with you!!!
Thanks! ;)

However, a moderator has now sent me a warning for trolling.

Consequently I now have to moderate my opinions.
Now, why would they send you that warning? :eek:

I agree with the OP. and on top of that: I think the "Core" team everyone is complaining at has other things to do than make a "migration tool". They're updating both Joomla 1.5 and Joomla 1.6 simultaniously.

As far as I know, the migration tool from 1.0 to 1.5 was made by a third party, as well. Turned out to work fine for everyone. But do you seriously expect a working migration tool 2(!!) days after Joomla 1.6 is officially released?

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Re: Why Migrating Should NOT be in the core:

Post by Torettox84 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:18 am

luishorta wrote: Do you know wordpress?
Yes, I do. Why? Their upgrades are far less "dramatic" than the Joomla 1.5 to 1.6 if that's what you're trying to say :)

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Re: Why Migrating Should NOT be in the core:

Post by rogerco » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:34 pm

Totally agree with rand486 in the original post.

My initial reaction was disappointment that there was no easy migration path - I've got about half a dozen sites some of which would really benefit from 1.6.

But then I thought about it a bit and really it is not necessary, and anyway would be incredibly difficult to provide a universal migration tool.

My sites have different sets of extensions, some common ones, some specific. How on earth could a migration tool handle those - all it could do would be disable incompatible addons so I would still have to do a lot of manual fettling to get the sites working.

I actually see it as an opportunity to refresh each site, maybe tweaking the template here, not bothering to transfer some out of date content there, reorganising the categories and sections on another.

For most sites (99% I guess in general) there is no compelling reason to upgrade immediately - if it ain't broke don't fix it. If a site specifically needs J1.6 features then you might be better off starting from scratch anyway.

So a big thank you to the development team and all those who have helped get to this point. Congratulations on several major enhancements. I for one am pleased to have a stable platform to start to work with and can easily forgive the lack of documentation and migration tools.

To those who are moaning I'd say why not just be quiet and wait a while.

RogerCO

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Re: Why Migrating Should NOT be in the core:

Post by Leftfield » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:42 pm

trouble wrote:However, a moderator has now sent me a warning for trolling.
Consequently I now have to moderate my opinions.
You don't know my opinion regarding this so I found your comment very malicious.

I understand that you are passionate but not the reason for lying. No-one warned you for your opinion neither you were asked to moderate your opinion. No-one moderate any of your posts (now I will). I sent you a warning because you are trolling. Hard.

Three of you are trolling, writing duplicate posts (literally) on several threads. Simply, you do not use opportunity to stay on topic and you are an excellent example how not to discuss anything because no-one will take you seriously. If there was a reason to discuss about this, couple of you experts destroyed the dialog.

And now, when you blow up every opportunity to make normal dialog you are lying? Shame you.
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Re: Why Migrating Should NOT be in the core:

Post by trouble » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:58 pm

Leftfield wrote:
trouble wrote:However, a moderator has now sent me a warning for trolling.
Consequently I now have to moderate my opinions.
You don't know my opinion regarding this so I found your comment very malicious.

I understand that you are passionate but not the reason for lying. No-one warned you for your opinion neither you were asked to moderate your opinion. No-one moderate any of your posts (now I will). I sent you a warning because you are trolling. Hard.

Three of you are trolling, writing duplicate posts (literally) on several threads. Simply, you do not use opportunity to stay on topic and you are an excellent example how not to discuss anything because no-one will take you seriously. If there was a reason to discuss about this, couple of you experts destroyed the dialog.

And now, when you blow up every opportunity to make normal dialog you are lying? Shame you.
Whaaat???

I have never lied! I said I was warned for trolling! Which I was! Read my post again!
And IMHO I was not trolling. I was voicing my opinion. This is why I said I was I have to moderate my opinion. And I have.
I am not writing duplicate posts! Someone else is copying and pasting their posts. Not me.
I am not being malicious either.
I actually can't believe your reply! :eek:

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Re: Why Migrating Should NOT be in the core:

Post by Leftfield » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:45 pm

trouble wrote:Consequently I now have to moderate my opinions.
That's your comment, not mine. That sentence was seriously placed. Are you sure you picked the right words? I have already delete comment which was written in a spirit of defence of freedom of speech, comment with link to the wordpress as a solution of "I now have to moderate my opinions"??? Are you still sure you picked the right words?

I told (about lying) that no-one asked you to moderate your opinion, neither there were any intention to do so. Neither a warning sounded like that. Neither you could extract such thing from the warning even slightly. No way. So, what was a reason to make such conclusion? Making yourself a martyr?

Yes, we can discus have you trolled or not, anytime, and I am always ready to take consequences for any of my decisions. You have opportunity to express your attitude regarding moderation. Please, if you want, I am always here to listen what do you think about the warning and I really do care.
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Re: Why Migrating Should NOT be in the core:

Post by trouble » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:59 pm

Facepalm tbh :eek:

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Re: Why Migrating Should NOT be in the core:

Post by diavolo32 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:06 pm

Leftfield wrote:
trouble wrote:Consequently I now have to moderate my opinions.
That's your comment, not mine. That sentence was seriously placed. Are you sure you picked the right words? I have already delete comment which was written in a spirit of defence of freedom of speech, comment with link to the wordpress as a solution of "I now have to moderate my opinions"??? Are you still sure you picked the right words?

I told (about lying) that no-one asked you to moderate your opinion, neither there were any intention to do so. Neither a warning sounded like that. Neither you could extract such thing from the warning even slightly. No way. So, what was a reason to make such conclusion? Making yourself a martyr?

Yes, we can discus have you trolled or not, anytime, and I am always ready to take consequences for any of my decisions. You have opportunity to express your attitude regarding moderation. Please, if you want, I am always here to listen what do you think about the warning and I really do care.

Sure you have good reasons to warning, but in these thread i was reading a dialog between two users who have opposite points of view. He's only ironic : if someone said maybe he's trolling, so he thinks he has to autocensure it's comments, but if he was copying their comments in two or three threads about Joomla! is the best CMS of the world and the reasons for that, is he trolling? Obviously, no, that he copy and paste a post who he thinks that represent his point of view talking about the same affaire, well, that's economic. He repeats 3 times a post, well, he's debuggin JUpgrade for the community, that's great for everybody. Let the people talk. In my opinion, of course.
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Re: Why Migrating Should NOT be in the core:

Post by red2678 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:44 pm

@Trouble. I was warned too. ROFL. What a joke! I was told that because I used all caps I was being offensive.

@diavolo32 I agree 100% with you. Why are we not allowed to speak out minds? Freedom of speech. No one is crying to the mods, (help me please these guys are being mean). So is it just them flexing their muscle to divert the conversation in their favor, maybe?

Let the man speak!

PS - I am going also say I am not trolling. I am speaking my mind. I do not care if anyone responds to this post. But I should be allowed to say this without fear of being banned.


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