An obstacle to Joomla development and marketing

[sinclavos]

I published the following post
An obstacle to Joomla development and marketing
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=772894

I'm sure I posted it in this forum but somehow it ended up in "The Lounge"

IMHO this post relates directly to a marketing issue as much for Joomla as for some of the most important extensions, and I think that Joomla should consider introducing some mechanism to counteract this issue, so ideally those involved in marketing should take note of the problem. I believe that in "The Lounge" it won't get to the right people. In fact I believe that if Joomla does not address this issue it'll end up being a CMS for an elite.

But maybe Joomla is already a tool for an elite, and that would explain why no one has reported that a similar situation has happened to them. Maybe I’m the only idiot that thought that Joomla was interested in providing grounds for individuals or companies to produce completely operative and secure websites, that is help to clean up obstacles.

[sinclavos]

The 23rd September 2011 my website was hacked.

That same day I informed the hosting provider (Joomla-Chile) after finding a way into my site and eliminating the Hack.
In response Mr. Baronti sent me the following:
Estimado Richard,
le recomiendo encarecidamente que participe en esta actividad para que pueda tener un sitio joomla seguro,
http://certificacionjoomla.com/componen ... Itemid=150
This page doesn’t exist anymore but it refered to a crash course as described in the next email from Mr. Baronti:

De: Joomla-Chile.cl (info=[email protected]) en nombre de Joomla-Chile.cl ([email protected])
Enviado: jueves, 29 de septiembre de 2011 18:28:44
El segundo taller, sobre seguridad en Joomla!, lo dictará Hugo Baronti. Se trata de un taller especializado donde se revisarán varios tips fundamentales e imprescindibles para tener un joomla! seguro. Para seguir este taller se requiere llevar un laptop con un sitio joomla (accesible en localhost [opción recomendada] o en un servidor remoto) versión 1.5.X o 1.7, y los permisos de superadmin para instalar la última extensión RSFirewall, que se utilizará como ejemplo.

I have underlined those words in spanish that represent the importance of using RSFirewall in a Joomla site in the words of Mr. Baronti:
“I recommend (encarecidamente) emphatically you take part in this course to have a secure website”.
“tips…. that are (imprescindibles) the bare minimum to have a secure website……. install RSFirewall”

Although RSFirewall is mentioned by Mr. Baronti as being used as an example, I’m sure no RSFirewall user would be willing to replace it for a free alternative, and it is clear that the call is much more than a mere “recommendation”.


On the 10th November I sent a letter to Joomla-Chile explaining the situation that it was not possible for me to renew the RSFirewall license with the present purchasing system in place with RSjoomla.com, and I ask them to find a way for renewing that license locally.
As I got no answer I sent them the same letter again on the 13th November with a copy to Mr. Baronti’s personal email, in case it had not arrived before.
Mr. Baronti responded that I should contact Joomla-Chile through their email because he doesn’t respond to issues about the hosting through his personal email. However Joomla-Chile ([email protected]), to this date hasn’t answered my two emails.


Additionally, I have a further complaint.

I reviewed the RSFirewall extension, in the same way I have reviewed all the extensions I have had experience with, with honesty and transparency. I made a clear note that it is a valuable extension, but I can’t give it the stars I would like to, because it has a limited payment system that excludes those people that don’t have credit cards or PayPal. As, that is the only way Joomla users can use that extension, it is clearly a weak point as it excludes access to the extension, something they should modify to make it accessible to a bigger population of Joomla websites. But instead of answering that it is an issue they would like to resolve, my Review has been eliminated.

As there is no solution, I suppose I just have to wait for my website to be hacked and later closed out by Mr.Baronti, because it’s a security risk, so I’ll end up losing all the effort of two years, just when my website is starting to move up.

Good work, Joomla.

[brian]

This really isnt an issue for the Joomla project. In addition regarding your inability to pay for rsfirewall that is only one of many possible options available to secure your website and not all of them cost a fee. Finally a good web site, fully upto date and following best security practices as documented here at joomla.org does not require ANY extra security software. In addition having translated the entire message from Hugo Baronti it is referring to a training course that he is running (nothing to do with the Joomla project)

[sinclavos]

nothing to do with the Joomla project

When Baronti says that such a software is essential for security then it does have to do with the Joomla project.

[Tonie]

It's just an opinion. Mine is the same as Brian, you do not require extra securiry software for a Joomla installation.

That website is not part of the Joomla project.

[sinclavos]

Are you both saying that Mr. Baronti fooled me when he used the words "emphatically" and "essential"?

In any case this does not change the fact that Joomla's extensions are part of Joomla's growth. In fact, many extensions cover specific needs (ie. for a Real estate website) that Joomla's core does not deliver without extensive programing, so extensions are a short cut for many Joomla users that can't or don't want to create their own "extension". So I think it is quite clear that Joomla and its extensions (although belonging to other companies, groups, etc) go hand in hand.
Additionally, an extension can only be used with Joomla.
So, and if you agree to this, the difficulties for buying certain (if not all) extensions, plugins, etc., is an obstacle for the development not only of those extensions, but also of Joomla. If an extension has the possibility of being bought by different means: PayPal, Moneybookers, Credit Card, Bank account, Transfer, its potential market increases. If payments can be done locally, I'm sure the potential market will be much more than a simple increase, being more oportunity creating and more democratic.

[Tonie]

Don't have too much time, so just replying to the first part. No, I didn't mean that he was fooling you. Different people have different opinions about what to install and what not to install, in this case there is no 'right' or 'wrong'. His opinion is that you need a firewall like that. My opinion is that you don't install extensions unless you specifically need them.

[sinclavos]

Maybe I should create a survey.

[Radek Suski]

I'm really astonished about your opinion.
When you are going to buy Windows and install it, it does not have AntiVirus program, so you are going to buy because in your opinion it's necessary, let's say, Norton Antivirus.
Now when you have issues with Norton AntiVirus or you cannot pay for it or whatever, do you go then to Microsoft and complain about the situation?
Are you going to create survey in Microsoft support system?

[sinclavos]

I'm really astonished about your opinion.

Well, apparently you also believe Joomla and Microsoft aren't very different, as you put them as equals.

I am astonished with the unbalanced answers I get, because I thought joomla was different (and obviously I'm not talking about the software, but the people behind it).

You should know Radek, that I'm using sobi2 in my website, and I'm very happy with it. If I could have success with my website, and had the means, you can be sure I'd go for an upgrade, because I'm sure it would be worth it, as I did with others. But the reactions I get here give me a good reason to just let it go. Probably it's not worth it.

[sinclavos]

BTW Radek, although microsoft is not my issue, the truth is I can buy Norton Antivirus just round the corner in my city, if I wanted to.

[baronti]

Hi "sinclavos".

I think you have not understood the meaning of the conversation we had. Send me an email and I'll explain in Spanish on this topic.

Thanks to the others who have responded. I share his views on this subject.

Regards.

[sinclavos]

Hello Mr. baronti.
I'll contact you by mail for my particular, local issue, lets see how it goes.

To the rest of Joomla I still have to say, if Mr. Baronti has found a solution for this issue, it only would solve the Chilean market, and hopefully it's an open solution, that is, anyone can have access. Not like things are done usually; you know, just with friends. There are still many markets out there that are equally restricted, and local payments would bring down many entry barriers.

[mandville]

feeding back to the community the information you and baronti find in an open and frank manner would be enlightening for us all

[sinclavos]

I can't speak for Mr. Baronti.
All I can say is that the issue of access to paid extensions by local means is still an issue, and it is up to Joomla masters, together with extension developers to find a way.
Maybe the solution is in the area of agreements or partnerships between extension developers and local Joomla web hostings.

[pe7er]

I made a clear note that it is a valuable extension, but I can’t give it the stars I would like to, because it has a limited payment system that excludes those people that don’t have credit cards or PayPal. As, that is the only way Joomla users can use that extension, it is clearly a weak point as it excludes access to the extension, something they should modify to make it accessible to a bigger population of Joomla websites. But instead of answering that it is an issue they would like to resolve, my Review has been eliminated.

Sorry to hear that you cannot buy an extension from a 3rd party developer because you don't have a credit card or a paypal account. However, you can not blame the developer for that!

All I can say is that the issue of access to paid extensions by local means is still an issue, and it is up to Joomla masters, together with extension developers to find a way.
Maybe the solution is in the area of agreements or partnerships between extension developers and local Joomla web hostings.

Have you contacted the 3rd party developer personally to discuss about your payment problem. That you would like to buy their extension but don't have a credit card or paypal?

Some years ago I sold some music CDs at eBay. Fortunately I wasn't criticized by people that didn't have credit cards or paypal accounts
Instead we worked out an alternative: cash US dollars safely packed (concealed in tin foil) in an envelope.

I guess that some developers might accept such alternative payment methods...
Just tell them about your problem and suggest an alternative method of payment...

[sinclavos]

However, you can not blame the developer for that!

No, I can't blame the developer for using a payment system that bullies its users (PayPal), but I can blame him for contributing with a monopoly, that is, not having alternative systems for users that can't, or even don't want to, pay with PayPal.

Have you contacted the 3rd party developer personally to discuss about your payment problem. That you would like to buy their extension but don't have a credit card or paypal?

Yes I did, but he kicked the ball to Avangate, and did not offer an alternative solution (s)

The fact is that risking your money in a letter can be a good solution for small amounts. If you loose it, it isn't a great deal.

However, I think developers should consider adding more payment options, probably that would even open more markets for them.

Even still, ext-developers could build an information bank that would say: i.e. in Paraguay I have 10 joomla-developers using my software and they will have to renew their licenses, so I'll send 10 license renewalls to my agent in Paraguay (he can be anyone that can pay the ext-developer for the licenses), who will re-sell them to the joomla-developers + a small commission.
How that agreement is worded depends of the parties and the trust between them.

Would that be to complicated? Would it bring more extension buyers into Joomla?

[nonumber]

That is not worth the hassle.
If you don't have a PayPal account or credit card you can't do much online.
If you need to buy something, try to find a friend that does have that to buy it for you.

I have know idea what this discussion has to do with Joomla in general though.