Remove or change Self Promoting Forum Rule

[leolam]

As per request of the PLT I open the discussion here instead of continuing the discussion which is ongoing on the CMS-list.

I like to propose amendment to 2 forum rules which are not beneficial to the Joomla community in any way.

The rules are

Any posts deemed to be self promotion, advertising, or spam can and will be removed. NO SPAM - NO ADVERTISING eg. Posting and making excessive, inappropriate and unnecessary references to your products and websites is self promotion.

Any post I make which links to Tips and Tricks on our website(s) or elsewhere where people ask for a good hosting setup etc etc are being removed. As a result I need to copy/paste my articles to the forum which is a waste of time and helps nobody. As posted on the CMS list by multiple people we cannot link to blog posts that we have written explaining issues, training manuals, security explanations etc.... No we need to copy/paste documentation etc to this platform which is bothering so what happens is very clear: People do not do that (I don't in many cases) since it is enormous time consuming with the result that the user with issues is not properly handled unless I have somebody else post a link to our help and blogs etc etc.

Posting and making excessive, inappropriate and unnecessary references to your products and websites is self promotion.

That would be fair maybe but any link to a blog post, a Tip or manual on our own site is per definition deemed to be self promoting and links are being removed. Even links to a test site to show that certain problems can be overcome by doing this/that and following the solution as shown have been removed in the past. So do I now establish a test site for forum users so I can show that things DO work? No... since I have the risk actually of getting a 3 month Board Warning which is ridiculous since I am helping people!

Again this rule does not help the Joomla community, it discourages to post the efforts!

The second rule which is not helpful at all is

Linking to extensions: If an extension (commercial or otherwise) is listed in the JED then the link from the forum must be to the approved JED listing only.

First (if I am not sure that it is on the JED) and a user asks for a certain type of extension I need to find the link first by myself and see if it is actual on the JED yes/no and post the link to the extension on the forum request. That takes me every time 5 minutes so now I answer if somebody asks "what is a good editor" --> 'Find JCE in the extension directory' where a reply as " please visit http://www.joomlacontenteditor.net (which link i know by head) would have helped the user and me both. User does not has to search (do newbies find quickly extensions?: no!) and I do not have to find a stupid link on the JED. Similar situation as example " how do I put a module in an article or category" I am not allowed to state go to http://www.nonumber.nl and review "Modules Anywhere" which is where the user ends up anyhow but I have to dig out the link on the JED and post that link

Sorry nobody can state that this is user friendly and is helping the community

So I do request the Leadership to reconsider these 2 forum rules

Leo Lammerink
MD GWS-Global Web Services Ltd

[ooffick]

Hi Leo.

Thanks for that. I am happy to discuss this here.

The problem with links vs self promotional links is that not only do a lot of people use those for personal benefits (SEO purposes). I am pretty sure there are a good few users in here would would like to just use a quick link.

There are things to evaluate like is the author earning ad revenue on their site, did the author write the content himself or is just copied from somewhere else, is this link permanent or will disappear in 1 month/6 month/1 year.?

In my opinion the self promotion rule is important (or a revised version of it) as you will have people abusing this rule by just posting "Please see my blog for that answer: ...". That cannot be the answer either! You will have over a short period of time, have a lot of users posting their answers on their blog post.

Regarding the second rule, what is the issue with linking to the JED instead and search for "JCE" or "nonumber" or "Modules Anywhere"

Kind Regards,
Olaf

[pe7er]

Thank you for your proposal.

I don't agree with removing those rules and I'll try to explain the reasons behind those rules:

Any posts deemed to be self promotion, advertising, or spam can and will be removed. NO SPAM - NO ADVERTISING eg. Posting and making excessive, inappropriate and unnecessary references to your products and websites is self promotion.

and

Posting and making excessive, inappropriate and unnecessary references to your products and websites is self promotion.

In the past we have had users who posted Joomla related information on their website and posted a lot of links on the forum just for SEO purposes.
Furthermore information on 3rd party websites *can* be less reliable, and cannot be corrected by other people.
And if the 3rd party website changes, all the links in the forum to the 'once useful' information become worthless...

As you know the Joomla project has an excellent resource, the documentation website http://docs.joomla.org/
It's a wiki where people can contribute useful information, correct information and where people can all work together and participate to make the Joomla documentation better.

Linking to extensions: If an extension (commercial or otherwise) is listed in the JED then the link from the forum must be to the approved JED listing only.

The JED only lists extensions that have a GPL license.
Furthermore if a vulnerability is discovered with a 3rd party extension, the listing at JED will be disabled immediately to prevent that people download & use the extension.

With the "only link to JED rule" Joomla websites owners, who want to use 3rd party extensions, will benefit the most from (GPL license) freedom & safety point of view...

[brian]

Peter I get your points but I'm sorry I disagree. People already work around the rule by adding links in their signature (as you do) to something that you couldnt actually write in a forum post.

[leolam]

I am sorry but I do disagree completely with Peter. I give you one example. Upgrade from Joomla 2.5.to Joomla 3.x is a mini-migration and many posts failures with white screens of death etc etc. So I made a mini-guide for that which I posted both on the forums as on our site. Since any request to make that sticky is unanswered by the global mods (no offense just facts) I need to search for that forum post every time and post a link to it. That takes me a lot of time where I could easy post a link to the Tips and Tricks on our site. Is that is self promotion as stated in the rule--> Non whatsoever for sure. However the mods simply don't look to what it is linked to but just remove every link to the own site of a poster. I did this a while ago and I received for a similar issue a warning. That is for me a complete wrong interpretation of the rule and a very simple "get rid of it" approach. You simply cannot blame every link to an article of your own site as self promo. You cannot defend that approach which is happening at present.

You want us posters to follow rules than live yourself to those rules as well and judge every link on it's own merit. Again read and see what the rule states and I can see where Brian (cannot speak for him) comes from..... Take his "hidden Joomla secrets" entries. Is that self promotion if he would link to that to explain to certain posters an issue?

Let's not discuss the document wiki quality ok? Often fully outdated and simply wrong info but that's a total other discussion and should not be part of my request

So if you read the rule properly it is clearly not offensive to post a link to your blog where you are explaining why a security vulnerability is happening as example. This is not offensive as described in the rule. Same counts for the link I gave above to our website (where I even posted a backlink to my forum-entry!). Is anything in a link to this mini-migration link self-promoting as described in that rule? NON! It is pure user support.

@ Olaf: I wrote what my objections to the JED-listings are. I do not take on forum questions any longer where I have to find the link in the JED just for the sake of 'rules'. Takes me way too much time

Leo

[leolam]

One more comment on this:

The JED only lists extensions that have a GPL license.
Furthermore if a vulnerability is discovered with a 3rd party extension, the listing at JED will be disabled immediately to prevent that people download & use the extension.

This is chicken and egg story to say the least. Here is the weirdo in the argumentation. I am not allowed to link directly to a "review" extension in the forums due to that rule but I can advise people to go for the best possible software Joomla has and that is a link to reviewsforjoomla.com (i.e. jReviews) since that is fully allowed (not listed in JED for reasons not to be discussed here) and it is not allowed to link directly to Ryan Demmer's website for JCE (though it is on the JED?)

I am not following the justification here at all!

Leo

[infograf768]

Code: Select all

However the mods simply don't look to what it is linked to but just remove every link to the own site of a poster.

It is just impossible to check every new link posted to make sure it is OK or not.
We have had the experience over the years that abuse is coming really fast and these rules are for everybody's protection.

Nobody prevents you from changing one of your general purpose sigs to link to the specific Tips and Tricks part of your site "http:// yoursite/tips-and-tricks"
and NEVER use the way you added this link in your post above as it also disobey to a basic rule we have which is to always show links in full.

[Bakual]

It's all valid points imho.
The thruth is that people don't go and add the information to docs.joomla.org so they can share the link in the forum post. They just don't answer if they are not allowed to post direct links.
The same with extensions. They rather just leave it to the asker to search the links himself or don't bother to post. Both is not really helpful for the user.

Personally I don't care if someone posts links for SEO purpose. If he can get a bit of money from the ads due to that link, so be it. It's not like he steals the money from someone else. As long as he offers something (a quality answer) in return of course.

I agree that excessive use of linking should be prohibited. But that should be handled based on the quality of the links. If the links contain proper answers to the question, then it should be ok. If it's just a generic link to a helpsite, it should be threated as spam.

One should be able to use common sense here, but I know that this is a tricky thing. Of course not because the forum mods don't have that common sense, but because it's a subjective decision and may be not consistent between different mods. In the end that would lead to more discussions why some link is banned and another one not.

[Webdongle]

Am not sure about the self promotion rule ... for example if someone points to their own help when there is an equally good help in the wiki, what happens then ?

That non JED extension rule needs looking at but care must be taken otherwise there will be a flood of unsafe extensions promoted in the forum.

There needs to be more flexibility methinks but also care must be taken to avoid commercialising the forum. It's where the line is drawn and the interpretation of where that line is that will be the sticking point of this.

[alikon]

Forum rules, like laws are subject to be interpreted to do their work at best, no rules at all are utopistic, as a judge on real life on forum there are moderators to take care of issue. I'm happy that this discussion was moved on the right place, but apart read what needs to be changed i've not read how. i've missed something?

[Leftfield]

...

We have thousands of people abusing this rule in its pure form almost every single day and if you ask them, yes they would like same as you: just to link their site with anchor links.

[removed sarcastic comment]

If users links your site I am 100% OK with it. Same as Matt Cutts explain white SEO techniques.

[removed sarcastic comment]

[leolam]

NEVER use the way you added this link in your post above as it also disobey to a basic rule we have which is to always show links in full.

JM, That is incorrect information since that is only valid for signatures

Next if you cannot follow your own rules since you think it is impossible to check don't make them since you do allow for 'non self promoting links" in your proclaimed rules so you should adhere to them imho

Leo

[Tonie]

The current rule is easiest for moderation, as it's black and white. It's not the best for users, they can miss out on good information. If we remove the rule, it's guaranteed that it will be abused and that mods will have to play judge and jury on the difference between spammy and quality links. I personally have problems with this particular rule, as I think it's too strict. I personally don't mind links to somebody's own website if they are quality links, and they used moderately.
However, I am against removing it since abuse will be abundant.

A few examples for links I do not mind.
- User has problem with extension X, developer point to own website with answer
- If you help people by posting, and you sometimes post a relevant link to your own site, I don't mind

A few examples for things I don't like
- User searches extension/template for something. A lot of designer/extensions developer reply with 'Yeah me'.
- Your sole existence is of the forum is based on posting links to your own site
- links to boilerplate questions/answers about Joomla, which should just be one the wiki.
- affiliate links

In the end it does not matter what kind of rules you enable, some people will always try to game the system. It's about creating a balance between what's allowed and what is not allowed.

[Tonie]

On a side note, I think the forum rules should be significantly simplified.

[leolam]

I'm happy that this discussion was moved on the right place, but apart read what needs to be changed i've not read how. i've missed something?

Nicola, I think that besides myself and Thomas and Tonie not much can be said. I have requested to amend the least this rule and clarify and I think the way to go could be something in the way Tonie described and what has been my entire point of entry in this post. The rule itself allows to link to your articles, guides and manuals or blog posts imho as long as they point to let me say "added value" does my post to which one of these global mods so cynical reacts adds value? Me think so.... The corresponding forum post I entered has received so far 41.378 views so it is definitely an added value (and not a self promotion as insinuated by a certain global mod)

Any moderator can see right on when we have pure SEO ignited reactions so they can easy be removed

And Kevin (Webdongle) Do I need to go> before posting an answer < search myself on the documentation site if possible an answer has been posted? I know that many have been and I find those very rapidly and point to them instead of pointing to our own website for instance (how to remove "home" is such example which I do not have on any of our Joomla support websites btw) but very often the docu wiki contains badly written 'manuals' and are often not clear (again no discussion here pls) with respect for all contributors. And let's phase the issue here on which I am being attacked. We have around 20 tips/and tricks on our websites. So tell me where my personal interest is here? Can I answer all questions with 20 links? ;-)

So again what have I done? I have initiated a discussion that is long due and should have been discussed earlier. For some it is easy to shoot the messenger but voila......this is Joomla in full. Good and responsive replies and frustrated (mentally disturbed maybe) individuals

My goals is still to find a solution where the community can benefit from all Joomla related sources available on the Net and not just those that are allowed for by Joomla moderators (no offense!)

Leo

[vdrover]

If the worry is linkbait, make all links rel="nofollow" like wikipedia.

[Leftfield]

If the worry is linkbait, make all links rel="nofollow" like wikipedia.

Why it would be the only reason?

This is all about someone "me and my site".

Most of the Forums does not allow this thing. You can see how it looks on digitalpoint (assuming with noffollow) but the forum is left to lamers because now it is spam forum.

I would have over 20k posts now and links all over the Forum. Back in days (talking about 2-3 years ago max) I could kill big money with forum's PR8, selling links etc. I could abuse this forum in such way. I had customers, I sold such sites but to abuse forum for it, for my personal business - ain't that lovely jubbly. [Removed sarcastic comment]

Forum doesn't have to allow this things. It has huge amount of members, it has clean forum, high PR, it is in the field and there is nothing which could explain me what's the benefit for the Forum. Please, notice, that I am not speaking about Leolam or my site. I am talking about Forum. What Forum has to do with Leolam wishes? Forum has purpose, and so far it works. With good success.

[Removed sarcastic comment]

[Webdongle]

And Kevin (Webdongle) Do I need to go> before posting an answer < search myself on the documentation site if possible an answer has been posted?

Easier to type in google
joomla docs abc xyz
than to type out the instructions

One of the problems I found is that no single documentation article is a generic 'cover all'. There is (nearly) always something unique that needs addressing in a post that it would be too specific to put in a generic help page.

Another problem is that as good as a tutorial may be ... it may not address the OP's question in a manner relevant specifically to them. And may contain information they may not need (at that time) thus causing them to get confused.

So pointing to a tutorial is not often the best way to address a problem.

imho by far the best way is to do a google search ... copy/paste a few relevant lines of a few useful pages and notate with a link to the source.

If volunteers are allowed to post links to their own sites then the line becomes fuzzy and causes disagreements about what is self promotion and what is genuinely helpful. Just like Victors post about RC testing did. As well intentioned as his post may have been ... it divided opinions about what is self promotion and what isn't.

[Leftfield]

If volunteers are allowed to post links to their own sites then the line becomes fuzzy...

I am wandering (not really) why no one asked Mods what they think. What's the practice. How users abuse and what forum rules are the most abused, so we can find the solution together.
[removed sarcastic comment]

[Webdongle]

@Leo
This is an answer to your question and not a personal attack

We have around 20 tips/and tricks on our websites. So tell me where my personal interest is here?

There in lays the crux of the matter. It drives traffic to your site and once there the visiting 'traffic' see what you have to offer.

Some might say

• That if your '20 tips/and tricks' are to help Joomla users you would have added them to the wiki.
• That you put them on your site to display your knowledge and thus give confidence to potential customers.
• That you put links in the forum to the help on your site so that you can attract potential customers.
• That you deliberately use your activity in Joomla to as an excuse for free advertising.

Now we both know that your motive of helping in the forum and bugsquad is to help others. But when someone puts links in posts to their own site then how can the motive be established ? And when does it change from being a helpful link to a chance for free advertising ?

[ooffick]

Mod Note: I have removed a few posts which were not related to the topic. Please stay on topic.

[Webdongle]

This whole thread highlights the reason for the rule in the first place. The fact that the moderators had to remove sarcastic comments shows the strong feelings about which links are helpful and which are deliberate self promotion.

The line between a link to ones own site being helpful or self promotion is often blurred. And everyone has their own opinion as to where that line is. But when no links to ones own site are allowed then the line is clear to all.

[brian]

I hope you meant sarcastic and not sadistic

[leolam]

Brian was 'sadistic' a hyperbole maybe? ;-)

[leolam]

This is all about someone "me and my site".

which is wrong and not true and a personal interpretation of somebody with a principal negative karma i.e perception

Leo

[leolam]

Anyhow, the discussion has been so sickened by personalizing this issue by certain individuals that continuing this makes little sense at this moment.

I know understand why people (in general terms) on the CMS - list were reluctant to 'actively' join this discussion. They have has similar experiences in the past it seems

I feel sad to see that the Joomla Forum Leadership is so poisoned (sorry for generalizing) that they are not able to interfere on the first alarm and correct own team members on first sight. I think it is good to keep close ranks in this huge community but braking rules is also applicable to your own colleagues.

Having said so feel free to do whatever you want with this proposal and Stick it in "whereeveryouwant" or use it to make things better...... I have no further wishes to communicate with 'certain' Global Mods who think they Rule as some in their territories did in the past.......

I am opting out of my own post now

Leo

[Webdongle]

I hope you meant sarcastic and not sadistic

Yes I did ... it was a typo ... have edited ... thanks

[AmyStephen]

Change comes because people enable change. In this case, it's not the moderators who are preventing change but they are being used to stop it, due to the rules.

Imagine had people supported Michael when he announced the testing resource? Imagine if a little enthusiasm had resulted from Vic's offering? Imagine if that enthusiasm grew into involvement that Vic invested time to help guide? Imagine if that involvement resulted in more bugs identified before a release and higher quality?

If it had been allowed to happen and if it had been successful, wouldn't it serve as an excellent example of how what we have traditionally labeled "self-promotion" is actually "community contribution" and this testing community engagement would grow and grow?

Sometimes, we act like crabs in a bucket http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality with our sense of "fairness."

For those who want to see the self promotion rule "softened", why not start with Vic's testing option. Allow him to open a thread prior to every release and see if he can build involvement. If you strongly believe that what is in core should be enough _AND_ you are willing to champion a cause, then you could also open a thread when for every release and try to build involvement.

Changing the rules can happen with success. But, the community has to empower those "first attempts" at change. My suggestion would be to rally support around Vic's testing (and if someone wants to do the same using core) and see where it gets. Get a prototype going, support it, and see what follows.

My 2 cents.

[Webdongle]

...
Imagine had people supported Michael when he announced the testing resource? Imagine if a little enthusiasm had resulted from Vic's offering? Imagine if that enthusiasm grew into involvement that Vic invested time to help guide? Imagine if that involvement resulted in more bugs identified before a release and higher quality?

If it had been allowed to happen and if it had been successful, wouldn't it serve as an excellent example of how what we have traditionally labeled "self-promotion" is actually "community contribution" and this testing community engagement would grow and grow?
....

But it didn't happen because Victor's (so called) solution is not a solution it is an alternative to the existing system. It is not a community contribution because it does not add to the existing system ... it only adds to his potential customers. By posting a link to his own site it has the affect of promoting his services and therefore by definition 'Self promotion'.

If users are allowed to post links to their own site then you will get the same debate each time it is done. There will be users who think it is a valid link and those who think it is more beneficial to the owner of the site

Leave the rule as it is then it avoids users 'self promoting'. Change the rule and you get a debate about the post being entirely 'Self promotiontional' or being more for the benefit of the community.

[AmyStephen]

If users are allowed to post links to their own site then you will get the same debate each time it is done. There will be users who think it is a valid link and those who think it is more beneficial to the owner of the site

Leave the rule as it is then it avoids users 'self promoting'. Change the rule and you get a debate about the post being entirely 'Self promotiontional' or being more for the benefit of the community.

That's the definition of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

Conversely, you could personally decide to champion the approach to testing that you believe is better, opening a forum thread and driving involvement, answering questions, while allowing another member of the community to contribute in his or her way.

How is it better to stop him from trying?

All those crabs in the bucket could get free if they stopped pulling one another down. It's not fair that one escape! So, they all stay trapped. I see no benefit to stopping people from trying to build involvement. There is no comfort in knowing everyone is pulled down equally.

I know you mean well but I believe you are wrong.