The end of J! 1.x

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sozzled
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The end of J! 1.x

Post by sozzled » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:10 pm

I want to discuss J! 1.x—J! 1.0, J! 1.5, J! 1.6, J 1.7. In fact I do not want to discuss J! 1.x at all!

I have no problem with J! 1.x: it's simple; I don't use it!

I have a problem with a technical self-help/support forum that, on one hand clearly states that J! 1.x is dead, unsupported, unmaintained and unsafe for use, on the other hand allows opportunities for people who obviously haven't gotten that message to ask "questions" or "report" problems and seek "support" for J! 1.x.

Let us be in no doubt that this forum continues to legitimise and foster the continued use of J! 1.x. Let us be in no doubt that people believe in the credibility of J! 1.x support. See the following screen capture:
fdotjdotorg.png
Every day when I visit the forum I see questions posted in the J! 1.x forum categories and I ask myself why does this acceptance of J! 1.x continue be a drain on the community? What is our real focus and why hasn't something been done to reinforce the message that further discussion relating to outdated software only results in wasting our time, wasting the time of our forum moderators, and leading to the inescapable conclusion that the problems exist because the people who manage the forum allow this kind of abuse to continue.

In case there is any doubt in anyone's mind, there are a couple of people who are to blame for this ongoing violation: the people who have forum administration rights. If they demonstrated a commitment to OSM, to the project and to the community that backs it, if they demonstrated strength of will (instead of having meetings where the minutes are kept but the hours are lost) then they would do something constructive. It only takes a few moments. I urge people reading this post to require that all J! 1.x forum categories be closed immediately.
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Re: The end of J! 1.x

Post by mbabker » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:52 pm

If we followed the intent of your message, every post that results in the user exposing they are not running whatever the latest release is on the day they post should be automatically locked (should we expand that to non-supported PHP, web server, and database platform versions too?). I don't agree with that. Yes, 1.x, 2.5, and >=3.0|<3.8.5 are all deprecated and unsupported versions, yes the project does not support those versions, no I do not believe that mandates that a platform intended for community support on various issues related to the installation and maintenance of Joomla across nearly 130 stable releases over a 12 year lifetime should not provide a means to seek help with those versions. Yes, those users continuing to run deprecated versions should be informed of the risks of doing so, but keep some things in mind here. It's not always their choice to continue running a 1.5 or 2.5 site even though those versions are unsupported (client refusing to pay for upgrade), or perhaps they are in the midst of a migration and having an issue on a live site; would your answer basically be to tell these people "turn off the old crap until you can get updated"?

If you don't want to see the old version posts, ignore them. I do.
So long and thanks for all the fish.

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Re: The end of J! 1.x

Post by sozzled » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:20 pm

@mbabker: I think you may have misrepresented my intentions, Michael: We're not talking about "deprecated" versions of PHP or of other software used to operate Joomla. We're not talking about "deprecated" versions of Joomla, either. We're talking about zombie support: giving life, attempting to resuscitate and revive Lazarus-like versions of Joomla.

The official position on J! 1.x is that (for all intents) these versions are dead, unmaintained, unsupported and unsafe; at least that's my understanding of the position and, if I'm wrong, I'm happy to be corrected. If people choose to continue to use those versions, that's entirely their business (and it should come as no surprise that they receive the cold shoulder when they enquire about how to "improve" their SEO chances, or seek extensions for J! 1.x, or report that their websites have been hacked). The problem is that the forum states that these versions are supported (as my screenshot earlier clearly demonstrates).

I don't think we can have it both ways. Either J! 1.x is supported (and the official position is trash-talk) or it isn't. What is it to be?

Does anyone seriously believe that people are "in the midst of a migration" from J! 1.x to J! 3.x for a decade or more? I don't believe that. And, if people were having problems in migrating from J! 1.x to J! 3.x, those discussions belong in one of the J! 3.x forum categories, anyway.

And it is always a matter of choice. People can continue their business: it's their choice if they feel hamstrung by the vicissitudes of their clients or by the incompetence of their webhosting providers.

This isn't a personal issue, Michael. Yes, for the most part I ignore the old posts (just as you do) but they are a distraction. They distract the good work that the forum moderators try to do to keep the forum clean and focused on current and topical discussions. They distract the community—they send mixed messages—and congest the forum. I'm also not advocating a wholesale clean-up of every topic that doesn't address the latest version of Joomla, either—that's taking things way too far. I believe that my proposal is a modest and proportionate response in terms of stated policy and what occurs in practice.

For as long as the forum administration team refuses to acknowledge the ongoing damage they're inflicting on the community by directly contradicting the project's intentions to keep it moving forward, I cannot see how this is a personal matter. It's a matter that affects the community.
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Re: The end of J! 1.x

Post by mbabker » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:09 am

sozzled wrote:The problem is that the forum states that these versions are supported (as my screenshot earlier clearly demonstrates).
Then that calls for updating the forum category descriptions, not locking and disallowing further posts in those areas as you seem to suggest with the lock icon.
sozzled wrote:I don't think we can have it both ways. Either J! 1.x is supported (and the official position is trash-talk) or it isn't. What is it to be?
The Joomla project officially does not provide user support, regardless of whether you're running a current server stack or still have a Joomla 1.0.2 install running MySQL 4.x and PHP 4.3.9. The Joomla project will field bug reports with currently supported versions of its software and reasonably triage them to determine if the bug is a result of user error, an issue related to an extension, or an issue in the core software. As this forum is not an official support arm of the project in any way other than being hosted by the project, I therefore believe that this forum does NOT have to follow the support status of the released software as the support provided on this forum comes from volunteers electing to provide their time and resources (some of whom actively contribute to the project in other ways, some of whom only engage with the project via this forum).
sozzled wrote:Does anyone seriously believe that people are "in the midst of a migration" from J! 1.x to J! 3.x for a decade or more? I don't believe that. And, if people were having problems in migrating from J! 1.x to J! 3.x, those discussions belong in one of the J! 3.x forum categories, anyway.
Yes, there are still sites being migrated from legacy versions of any platform to current software stacks (Leo shared a blog post just this week where his company just completed a 1.0.15 migration). In the last two years with my company we have fielded quotes for upgrades of all previous Joomla versions (and even Mambo in one case). As for the forum to post in, it depends on where the issue is being experienced. Running into an issue on the migrated/upgraded 3.x platform? Post in 3.x area. Issues on the legacy 1.x build? Post there.
sozzled wrote:For as long as the forum administration team refuses to acknowledge the ongoing damage they're inflicting on the community by directly contradicting the project's intentions to keep it moving forward, I cannot see how this is a personal matter. It's a matter that affects the community.
This is a matter of personal opinion. You feel that allowing users to continue coming to this forum seeking support for older versions blemishes the Joomla image. I feel there are a lot bigger image issues to address than whether this forum allows users to seek support for older software releases. Now, if this forum were an official project resource staffed by a project support team, I would have a different opinion on the matter. But fact is this forum is 100% volunteer time and resources.
So long and thanks for all the fish.

Manually updating Joomla? See https://gist.github.com/mbabker/d7bfb4e ... 3607f89281

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Re: The end of J! 1.x

Post by sozzled » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:18 am

I think I understand what you're saying and have written clearly and eloquently. Basically the forum, and those who manage it, can be used for any purpose that may or may not be in accordance with the wishes and intentions of (a) the PLT, (b) OSM and (c) the community in general. Enough said. 8)
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Re: The end of J! 1.x

Post by brian » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:49 am

Agree with everything @mbabker said
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Re: The end of J! 1.x

Post by sozzled » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:40 am

I think I know how Cervantes must have felt. :p
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