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I am not reporting anything to the forum moderators anymore

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:55 pm
by sozzled
Dear Joomla! community,

As everyone who visits this forum would be aware, there's a lot of junk posted on the forum. We are all busy people and, as volunteers trying to help other members of the community, we want to be able to easily find real questions and real problems that are of real interest to the community. Apart from the non-diminishing level of spam (and no real attempts made by the forum management team to reduce it), I made a pledge a few months ago to not discuss that matter.

This did not stop me from asking the forum moderators to relocate topics posted in the "wrong" category, or to ask them to mark topics as closed, or even to suggest that many similar and related topics should be merged together. I also used the "report to moderator" feature to ask for the closure of some topics in order to prevent continued abuse.

I have been advised that my requests are not welcomed by the forum moderator team. I have been advised that several of my outstanding (and yet-to-be-addressed) reports will be "discussed" and determined at the next meeting of the forum moderators team "in the next couple of weeks". As I do not know what will be on the meeting's agenda and we have not seen the minutes of the forum team meetings—minutes that show action plans and who will undertake the tasks associated with them—I am disappointed by the advice I have been given.

As a result of all of this, I will no longer report any matter to the forum moderators. It is very much the responsibility of the forum team to manage the forum as best as the team members can do. I would also have hoped that the suggestions offered by members of the community would be given some weight in the team's deliberations. I would also expect that, as with other J! teams, there would be greater transparency about what goes on at the forum team's meetings.

In conclusion, while I have been willing to offer my suggestions about how the J! forum carries out its role in supporting the community—and, overall, I have seen several of my suggestions taken onboard in the past—I feel that the forum management team does not now reciprocate these same feelings.

Re: I am not reporting anything to the forum moderators anymore

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:45 pm
by waarnemer
Though I can understand a part of the rant, I still stick to my philosophy...
We are all volunteers.
I cannot control the agenda of a volunteer. I don't pay the volunteer.
Good thing is... they don't pay me either. They cannot control my agenda.

I am fine with that. For sure not all we like or want is turning our way. But still even though some team efforts and actions may collide with our interests, it is still voluntary.

I do trust their efforts and intentions are for the good for the community despite sometimes not in my favour.
Sometimes transparent, sometimes not. Not all in this community are native speakers and writers of the english language. Because of that, sometimes, words and comments may look harsh and impolite.

So sometimes what is written is not exactly what is meant. Be patient.
Not always will you get an answer to your questions. Not knowing an agenda can mean they are not discussing your input as it can also mean they ARE discussing your input.

On the impolite comments, my comments probably included.
Besides not being a native speaker.. I have another disadvantage.. I am Dutch.
Appearing blunt, disobediant, stubborn, hard headed, impolite and all... but there is no deliberate intent... below that Dutch neanderthal behaviour there are actually pretty nice Dutch people around... it is just how they sound.. :)
We also sometimes do rant (national favourite pastime is ranting about the weather)... sorry for that... but we will not hold back in a next time... :) It is what we do.

Beware.... do not be mistaken again... now you think all Dutch speakers are that way... NO.. in Belgium people speak Dutch too... however they are not infested with these terrible behaviors of the people living north of their border.

I mean... just wait and be patient... and do enjoy and thank all volunteers... If we are going to fight one and other we don't need a competing CMS now, do we?

Re: I am not reporting anything to the forum moderators anymore

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:49 pm
by sozzled
Thank you. 8)

Re: I am not reporting anything to the forum moderators anymore

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:19 pm
by sozzled
The point that I'm trying to make is that the feedback we members of the community make to management is largely ignored (as evidenced by the absence of *any* responses about whether the moderator group agrees or disagrees) and, while trying to be patient, we just don't know what's going on. I don't need to amplify that statement with any further commentary from me but I would ask if other people in the community feel that I'm just blowing off hot air merely for the sake of appearing to put my thoughts "out there".

I'm not fighting with anyone nor am I trying to start a fight. I am just saying that I have concerns about how the forum appears to be working for me. If other people disagree with me and they feel that the forum is working well (and the forum moderators are doing their job well) then I can accept that.

If, after a couple of weeks of inaction in relation to the matters I addressed in my opening statement, there continues to be no response then it establishes a reasonable belief that (a) reporting our concerns to moderators are no more useful than if we choose to *not" use the "report to moderator" feature and (b) other people don't care if this forum works well or not. I feel that *that* is a reasonable proposition to discuss.

Re: I am not reporting anything to the forum moderators anymore

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:37 pm
by waarnemer
there is a slight misconception I think on what is task of moderators.
moderators follow and enforce the rules as in the policies set.
In case there are no rules they have some freedom to decide in the spirit of the policy (trivial yes)
They also have some power to move, close, split and whatever they technically can do.
And of course they can also mingle in the discussions...
So yes there they do a good job.
Do I get slapped on the fingers sometimes? Yes I have been slapped on my fingers...
Still I think they do a good job.

When it comes to the "problems" we can maybe conclude that the tool they inherited and work with has some limits and fighting the spammers on this forum.

But still I think they do a good job.
the feedback we members of the community make to management
As I see it, there is no management as we, moderators and developers, translation teams, marketing teams, 'I forgot a lot of teams' included, are all community.

And I can disagree on a lot, but I am still grateful. There is no community out there alike this one where every noob is as welcome as the die hard expert.... (sorry for the word noob, no insult intended)

Re: I am not reporting anything to the forum moderators anymore

Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:41 am
by darb
We are all volunteers thats good but if you step in and have a responsibility for a role in the Joomla community and its expected that you have some timely response to the world ( Joomla community ) it would be fine just to react to that input - whatever that is.

Re: I am not reporting anything to the forum moderators anymore

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:56 am
by sozzled
Dear community:

I asked some questions. I have been issued with a board warning for asking questions (or, more specifically, for "negative comments").

I will not ask any more questions on the forum, offer opinions or make comments (because someone may interpret my comment as "negative" and report me). Apparently there's a new forum rule about making negative comments.

This may be my last post before I am banned. Anyway, I have bigger problems at the moment; we're in danger of losing our home to bushfires less than 10 km away.

Re: I am not reporting anything to the forum moderators anymore

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:24 am
by brian
Not a new rule

Re: I am not reporting anything to the forum moderators anymore

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:55 pm
by toivo
brian wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:24 am
Not a new rule

@sozzled, look after the safety of your home. In 1994 the fire in Lane Cove National Park came within 500 meters of my home and in 2009 within 400 meters, that time from Garigal National Park.

Re: I am not reporting anything to the forum moderators anymore

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:56 pm
by w360
All i can say is that i feel with the moderators.

I have been very active in a few large communities and it can be really hard to try to be civil all the time.
As i am guessing most volunteers have a passion for the project, when someone criticizes Joomla or the way you are handling the things it's hard not to take it a little personally.

About negative comments. They are a killer for growth in any community and should be limited at all costs.
Constructive criticism is another matter entirely.

Re: I am not reporting anything to the forum moderators anymore

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:38 pm
by sozzled
Thank you to the few people who have responded on-topic to this discussion.

I want to make a few simple points for clarification.

1) I joined this [forum] community over 10 years ago and, for the most part, I have enjoyed that time. The forum community has grown a lot in 10 years. I fully support the Joomla! community in many ways: by donating my time to help other people who have problems; by helping with reviewing and updating the user documentation; by contributing to GitHub, to the Joomla! Community Magazine, and to the Joomla Extensions Directory; by giving my time to organise support for Joomla! in Australia and locally (where I live); by giving money to the Joomla! project and to extension developers.

2) I am aware that criticism—even constructive criticism—is not always welcomed by the people to whom that criticism is directed. Even well-intentioned, but perhaps poorly-worded, criticism can be interpreted as derogatory or insulting. Many times, when I write on this forum, I edit/re-edit/re-re-edit my posts several times ... and, in the end, I'm still dissatisfied with the final wording of what I write and what people read. I cannot always be held to blame for the way(s) that people will interpret what I write.

3) Being "dissatisfied" with the operation of the forum doesn't mean that we should be prevented from highlighting the causes of that dissatisfaction. Being dissatisfied doesn't mean that we should have inexhaustible patience and expect that, somehow, the cause(s) of that dissatisfaction will disappear without bringing matters to the attention of people who could address those causes of dissatisfaction.

4) A big problem that I have with this forum is the way(s) by which I can draw matters to people's attention. On the one hand I've tried to work within the established procedures—to report to moderators—those matters I feel could be addressed; I have been advised that my attempts to use those established procedures, at the frequency with which I used them, are unwelcome. On the other hand, when I've tried to use this feedback forum to highlight issues, I'm ignored by the very people who could address those issues.

This discussion topic is a case in point. I started it about two weeks ago. I asked for information about what plans the forum team has to address several issues—or complaints, if people prefer that term—I have.

I have not received any feedback—publicly or privately—from the forum team in relation to the matters I have tried to bring to their attention. Instead of this, I have received several emails containing strongly-worded "cease and desist" warnings.

These matters may not affect the vast bulk of forum users. Indeed, I may be making something out of nothing. I only ask that people consider that my purpose is to strengthen the support for the Joomla! community and I don't think that's not too much to ask for. But, when my efforts, tactlessly-worded as they may be, are unrewarded and when my patience is pushed to the very limits and I occasionally "go off the reservation", I don't believe that official board warnings are a solution.

If that's disrespectful then it's probably because lack of respect is a two-way street. If that's discourteous then I think the curriculum in the school of etiquette has changed. If this is insulting then I don't know what to think.

On review, I feel that people are seeking to blame me for my own misfortunes. On review, I feel that people are not looking at the broader issues and are dismissing them as a case of "Oh well, sozzled's gone 'off the reservation' again ..." :laugh: