Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license change

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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by masterchief » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:45 am

I forgot about this one. In April we released this information about the New Joomla Framework

http://developer.joomla.org/news/76-the ... ework.html

In there we were quite open about the license change:
If all goes according to plan, version 2.0 of the Joomla Framework suite will be released under the LGPL and will be ready for the wider PHP community to use. At this point in time, we cannot estimate when that will be, as it depends on talks with our legal team on the license change.
I'd don't recall receiving any feedback, negative or otherwise about the proposed license change at that time. You can see we followed a similar process for changing the name of the Platform here:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla- ... PwkE5BGVoJ

I think we've done as well as can be expected for volunteers but hey, I'm open for suggestions for improving our processes and for extra helping hands if the glove fits.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by Jenny » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:53 am

I can see from the OSM meeting notes that it was mentioned in Feb of 2013 and it was suggested to have the discussion regarding it on the public mailing lists (which I could not find any public discussion on the OSM public list) and it is again mentioned in the June meeting notes. Yes sporadically there has been a mention here or there over the last year.

Why no community blog post?

It isn't just a developer issue. It is a community issue. If it was strictly a developer issue, there wouldn't be a need for OSM to be involved nor do I think there would be a legal issue.

Just note I took that survey. I never saw any follow up regarding it, and I do try to monitor the developer channels. That something was mentioned in April - I may have missed that.

Where else was the discussion going on? Are you saying that no other discussions have been going on regarding this in private, only the few mentions in public?
Last edited by Jenny on Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by masterchief » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:00 am

Jenny wrote:Why no community blog post?
There was a blog to the community on developer.joomla.org.
Jenny wrote:It isn't just a developer issue. It is a community issue.
Can you explain more about why you think that is so? It will help me with an FAQ.
Jenny wrote:If it was strictly a developer issue, there wouldn't be a need for OSM to be involved nor do I think there would be a legal issue.
As you know, OSM is the copyright holder and the JCA assigns ownership of all code contributions to OSM. So in fact, OSM is the ONLY entity that can legally authorise a change in the license. You can agree or not but unfortunately we have to get their final approval no less than if you wanted to change the rules around the trademark.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by Jenny » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:05 am

masterchief wrote:
Jenny wrote:Why no community blog post?
There was a blog to the community on developer.joomla.org.
Jenny wrote:It isn't just a developer issue. It is a community issue.
Can you explain more about why you think that is so? It will help me with an FAQ.
Jenny wrote:If it was strictly a developer issue, there wouldn't be a need for OSM to be involved nor do I think there would be a legal issue.
As you know, OSM is the copyright holder and the JCA assigns ownership of all code contributions to OSM. So in fact, OSM is the ONLY entity that can legally authorise a change in the license. You can agree or not but unfortunately we have to get their final approval no less than if you wanted to change the rules around the trademark.
Well apparently from the responses here on the forum to the finally submitted public blog post on the Community website it appears to be an issue that the Community at large has something to say about. You may want to disagree with that, and you absolutely can disagree - it doesn't make it less true that the Community wants to have a seat at the table discussing a license change of the software that they are involved with.

You may think the Community at large is useless or not worthy of consideration - I do not agree with you.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by mbabker » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:11 am

Jenny wrote:It isn't just a developer issue. It is a community issue. If it was strictly a developer issue, there wouldn't be a need for OSM to be involved nor do I think there would be a legal issue.
It is a developer issue in that in order to relicense the code, there must be consent from the code contributors of the affected code, and any not agreeing would summarily have their code removed before relicense, similar to what happened when Bootstrap relicensed; this affects (IIRC) 48 lines of code in the current Framework as Don noted. With that consent, it becomes a legal issue which involves OSM as they are the copyright holders and own the trademarks, so ultimately they do have the final say in the matter.

As unpopular as this is going to sound, it is a community issue purely on principle and the interpretation of the values of the project and people's individual values. Does that mean that the community should not have a say? No. Could we have done things differently? Yes.

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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by masterchief » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:18 am

Jenny wrote:Well apparently from the responses here on the forum to the finally submitted public blog post on the Community website it appears to be an issue that the Community at large has something to say about.
Sure, but let's be realistic. The majority of the responses are +1-ing a post by Brian because Brian wrote it, not because the information it contained was correct or true.
Jenny wrote:You may want to disagree with that, and you absolutely can disagree - it doesn't make it less true that the Community wants to have a seat at the table discussing a license change of the software that they are involved with.
I've actually taken the time to list all of the case against and try to process them in a logic fashion. I'm happy for you to review whether I've done the "no" case justice in my review. Most of the confusion centred around people thinking the license of the CMS was changing due to Brian's response, which it most definitely isn't. The next was that it would affect the JED which it doesn't because we already ship the CMS with some LGPL code.
Jenny wrote:You may think the Community at large is useless or not worthy of consideration - I do not agree with you.
And I don't agree with me either if I truly thought that. Jenny, what's the core issue about changing the license that is important for you to say yay or nay. I am genuinely interested but realise that should I disagree, it doesn't mean I'm not taking your opinion into consideration. Conversely, I could also ask why is it important for you to stop the way I'd like to contribute to the project - that's quite honestly an important question from me.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by Jenny » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:22 am

mbabker wrote: As unpopular as this is going to sound, it is a community issue purely on principle and the interpretation of the values of the project and people's individual values. Does that mean that the community should not have a say? No. Could we have done things differently? Yes.
I don't think that is unpopular Michael. Joomla was built from the ground up based on very specific principles and values. It gained popularity, contributors and strength and a Community because people came together sharing those very specific principles and values. Without that glue holding people together, I don't think Joomla would have become what it is today.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by pchardnet » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:36 am

If this change should be decided only by those who write or wrote the code, so why bring it to the public?

I understand that there can be good results, but all based on speculation, with the exception of a technical justification to include the framework in the composer (if I'm not mistaken, @ andrew said that).

I also believe that there should be some way to make it clear that framework and cms are distinct things. I say this by the laity. And if you rename the framework costs change any principle of OSM, so to do.

What can not it leave questions for users, for developers since things seem to be well resolved.

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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by masterchief » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:52 am

pchardnet wrote:If this change should be decided only by those who write or wrote the code, so why bring it to the public?
So, this is the idea of "due diligence". Basically that means have we made a "reasonable" effort to inform people about what we are doing so that they are not surprised when we do do it. As I outlined to Jen, this means quite a number of steps in consultation. This is simply the last step (I would have preferred it done on our mailing list, but hey, not my call) for community consultation.

The bottom line is there is no "technical" reason to block the license change (the SFLC has confirmed we can do it), it comes down to a question of whether OSM and the community trust the PLT and trusts the developers of the Framework to make this step in the best interests of the Joomla Project as a whole (knowing there a pros and cons to the issue). If not, then either those developers have to simply "obey", and that's what extension developers have to do to get listed on the JED, or they may decide to contribute to a different project altogether (and some extension developers did move on).

My prediction is, however, that in the case of a "no" vote, unlike the JED/GPL issue, all interest in the Joomla Framework as we know it will die fairly quickly. Is the Joomla community prepared to take shared responsibility for that in return for having "a say"? I don't know.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by masterchief » Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:22 am

Here's an interesting discussion which is ironically has implications rather close to home:

https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/issues/2054

The inference here is we want preemptively deal with the question "can you change the license of the Joomla Framework so I can include it in my application?".
Last edited by masterchief on Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by Chacapamac » Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:29 am

Absolutly NOT.
This is completely against what Joomla is suppose to be.
Who ever think at something like that…
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by masterchief » Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:34 am

Chacapamac wrote:Absolutly NOT.
This is completely against what Joomla is suppose to be.
Who ever think at something like that…
Just some of the core developers that made Joomla possible today. Here's a blast from the past:

http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg874511

The formatting on that page seems broken but two of our former code champions are talking about the LGPL back in 2007. Amazing what you can find when you look hard enough.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by infograf768 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:44 am

phproberto wrote: Joomla! needs (and is facing) a technological jump in v4.0. It's up to you that renovation gets associated with Joomla! or with a small group of developers.
I have no idea at this point if the Framework will be or not the base for a technological jump, but for sure Joomla!® (the CMS) needs to progress or die. I have a tendancy to trust the framework maintainers when they assure me that it will help our CMS.

I fail to understand how that Framework could be associated to a "Renovation" for the PHP community at large if it does not provide something unique.

I still did not get any reply to my quoting
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-not-lgpl.en.html
and its explanation of what we should aim to as people concerned by Open Source:

Quoting myself (sorry for the mistake in my using there the term "platform" instead of Framework), Bold my me:
This means, as I understand it, that if our platform does NOT provide something better than existing platforms, we could indeed go LGPL.
I sincerely hope the purpose of our platform is to provide something better or unique. Otherwise why using time and efforts on it?
So, is the Framework (now using the right term..) bringing anything new for anybody else than Joomla! ?
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by masterchief » Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:50 am

infograf768 wrote:I fail to understand how that Framework could be associated to a "Renovation" for the PHP community at large if it does not provide something unique.
For a start, yes the Framework does offer something unique and that's the Github API connector package. But I think you are missing the point. We live in a time where PHP code is really easy to share and we are past the days where we have to build an entire monolithic framework ourselves. We can now pick and choose and, one day, the CMS may be made up of many packages of PHP from many different sources, just one of them being the Joomla Framework. Conversely, we want to make our packages available to everyone else. Sure, some will die off - we have already earmarked Log for burial because Monolog does such a good job. Drupal could use our DI container today if it wanted to, and so it goes on.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by infograf768 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:03 am

If it does provide something unique, then I stand against the LGPL, following the advice in
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-not-lgpl.en.html

That will be my conclusion in this topic.
Thanks for understanding.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by nikosdion » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:05 am

Before changing the license to increase adoption make sure that your framework actually has the features required by its target audience.

Look at the documentation of JModel and that of laravel's model. Why would I want to use JF?

Look at JUri. It dropped support for what is essentially $live_url in Joomla! CMS. This means I can no longer use it on Apache with temporary URLs like http://www.example.com/~something So no, it doesn't cut it for mass distributed applications either.

Look at the disparate file storage classes in JF and the neat, one interface to rule them all approach in FlySystem. Why would I want to use JF?

Even JApplication* is expecting objects with the same interface as JF, so replacing let's say the session handling would require me to write a decorator class. Since I can't use much of JF anyway why use its app container with all that trouble?

There is no unique selling point in Joomla! Framework. Perhaps someone can use a few bits and pieces, like JRegistry or JMail, in an app based primarily on Laravel, ZF2, Symfony etc. I would be hard pressed to see why anyone besides Joomla! developers would be as misguided as to start a brand new PHP app on Joomla! Framework. And you still think that JF doesn't get popular because of the license, the bad reputation of the trademark or Mars retrograde? Oh, come on. You are either coding in a vacuum or you are hypocrites. In either case your code has a predetermined fate. See you in a year or two, when you will still have a framework nobody uses and you will still be debating if calling it "Framework" is why that happens. Your problem will still be that JF looks like a cheap plastic toy compared with the established frameworks.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by masterchief » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:07 am

infograf768 wrote:If it does provide something unique, then I stand against the LGPL, following the advice in
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-not-lgpl.en.html

That will be my conclusion in this topic.
Thanks for understanding.
JM - you have completely missed the point and the advisory is just that, an advisory.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by masterchief » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:17 am

nikosdion wrote:Before changing the license to increase adoption make sure that your framework actually has the features required by its target audience.

Look at the documentation of JModel and that of laravel's model. Why would I want to use JF?
JModel is not part of the Joomla Framework, it's part of the Joomla CMS. The class you need to refer to is something like \Joomla\Model\Model.
nikosdion wrote:Look at JUri. It dropped support for what is essentially $live_url in Joomla! CMS. This means I can no longer use it on Apache with temporary URLs like http://www.example.com/~something So no, it doesn't cut it for mass distributed applications either.
This is an operational issue relating to functionality. The quality of the code is not on trial here.
nikosdion wrote:Look at the disparate file storage classes in JF and the neat, one interface to rule them all approach in FlySystem. Why would I want to use JF?
You wouldn't. I think we've decided to drop them in 2.0.
nikosdion wrote:Even JApplication* is expecting objects with the same interface as JF, so replacing let's say the session handling would require me to write a decorator class. Since I can't use much of JF anyway why use its app container with all that trouble?
An interesting topic to raising on the developer mailing list for the Framework.
nikosdion wrote:Your problem will still be that JF looks like a cheap plastic toy compared with the established frameworks.
Thanks for the input but the quality of the code, nor its resemblance to plastic toys at an arbitrary price point, is not what we are talking about. I suggest you raise your concerns on the appropriate mailing list as you would expect anyone to do looking at your code.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by nikosdion » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:46 am

Posting from a mobile device, using abbreviations. Yes, I meant that fully qualified class name, thanks.

Thank you for accepting my point about the code. Now can we please all stop shouting at each other and talk about the large pink elephant in the room? Why are you changing the license. It can't drive adoption, not at this stage where the features (not code quality, the code is robust) are not in par or anywhere near the competition. It seems that you are perfectly aware of that, otherwise you'd have told me to buzz off instead of directing me to the developers' mailing list. Sorry,but I see a cognitive disconnect here.

On a personal note: I am against the LGPL because the only people who benefit are those who are interested more about making money than offering powerful, customizable, reusable software. I came to this community in 2004, ten years ago, because then Mambo was all about these core values. I stuck with Joomla! even before it's name was decided because you declared that Open Source Matters and you wrote that forum post eloquently declaring that it's about the people behind the code. Ten years later I see that this idealistic spirit has waned. I am not saying that based on your writings, Andrew, but from the sum of replies coming from the Joomla Framework team. You continuously tell us that it's just a developer (code) issue, continuously implying a decision was taken and discounting the community at large, treating it as rowdy toddlers who are not entitled to an opinion. I am desperate at the decadence of the project's ethos which is why I stopped contributing in January and decided to abstain from any volunteer activity for the project any more.

As for my assessment of JF in comparison to the established PHP frameworks out there it's all but arbitrary. You may not remember it, but I am a PHP developer. I was framework shopping two months ago for a mass distributed app. I'm sorry to say, but with the exception of Registry there was no other part of JF I found reasonable using without modification. I had to fork off a lot of it to make it perform suitably for this kind of environment. In the end of the day I ended up using a different session manager (Aura for PHP's Session package), my own application container, a modified Input package, my own MVC, a modified Database package (bug fixes for PostgreSQL, a better importer), my forked Uri package and so on. All the while I was seeing what other frameworks wee offering and I was really sad I didn't have the time to learn their ropes. I'm sure it would have spared me all the trouble I went through modifying and overriding the JF.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by masterchief » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:00 am

nikosdion wrote:Thank you for accepting my point about the code. Now can we please all stop shouting at each other and talk about the large pink elephant in the room? Why are you changing the license. It can't drive adoption, not at this stage where the features (not code quality, the code is robust) are not in par or anywhere near the competition. It seems that you are perfectly aware of that, otherwise you'd have told me to buzz off instead of directing me to the developers' mailing list. Sorry,but I see a cognitive disconnect here.
You are right to a point. Changing the license now is not a driver, but it is a removal of a future barrier. That said, was the alpha of your FOF package anything like the more mature version today? Did you not put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into it to make it work? Of course you did. Did YOU not change YOUR LICENSE to benefit the Joomla CMS? Afford us the same privilege to build a phoenix out of the ashes of the Joomla Platform.
nikosdion wrote:On a personal note: I am against the LGPL because the only people who benefit are those who are interested more about making money than offering powerful, customizable, reusable software.
I'm sorry you feel that way but having been involved in the wider PHP community for some time now, I just don't buy it. Case in point is Drupal asking Bootstrap to help them with a licensing issue. I have no data to prove it, but I'd wager there is more to gain from cooperation between Open Source providers than there is to lose on the off chance someone happens to use our code in a proprietary stack.
nikosdion wrote:I came to this community in 2004, ten years ago, because then Mambo was all about these core values.
And I am still the same person that pushed that fork button Nic.
nikosdion wrote:I stuck with Joomla! even before it's name was decided because you declared that Open Source Matters and you wrote that forum post eloquently declaring that it's about the people behind the code. Ten years later I see that this idealistic spirit has waned.
To be brutally honest that's because of this kind of thread telling me I should take my contribution values elsewhere - which I am very seriously considering doing.
nikosdion wrote: I am not saying that based on your writings, Andrew, but from the sum of replies coming from the Joomla Framework team. You continuously tell us that it's just a developer (code) issue, continuously implying a decision was taken and discounting the community at large, treating it as rowdy toddlers who are not entitled to an opinion. I am desperate at the decadence of the project's ethos which is why I stopped contributing in January and decided to abstain from any volunteer activity for the project any more.
Sorry to hear that.
nikosdion wrote:As for my assessment of JF in comparison to the established PHP frameworks out there it's all but arbitrary. You may not remember it, but I am a PHP developer. I was framework shopping two months ago for a mass distributed app. I'm sorry to say, but with the exception of Registry there was no other part of JF I found reasonable using without modification. I had to fork off a lot of it to make it perform suitably for this kind of environment. In the end of the day I ended up using a different session manager (Aura for PHP's Session package), my own application container, a modified Input package, my own MVC, a modified Database package (bug fixes for PostgreSQL, a better importer), my forked Uri package and so on. All the while I was seeing what other frameworks wee offering and I was really sad I didn't have the time to learn their ropes. I'm sure it would have spared me all the trouble I went through modifying and overriding the JF.
This is a great conversation for the Framework mailing list, but my personal opinion is people would rather see it not part of this project. So you may get your wish and it will simply disappear - problem solved.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by nikosdion » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:14 am

The FOF al
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by nikosdion » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:21 am

Darn phones.

The FOF alpha was private. Case in point, it was included in a private directory in each extension of mine using it. There was a LOT of polishing before going public about it.

I changed the license to a more RESTRICTIVE one (from GPL v3 to v2). I did that because I'd be a real dick to require Joomla! to relicense to v3 to accommodate for my contribution. I do not understand, am I being chastised for not pushing for a unilateral license change in the CMS from the back door? All right. What can I say? I can't argue with mendacious arguments so I'll just go away now.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by masterchief » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:29 am

nikosdion wrote:I do not understand, am I being chastised for not pushing for a unilateral license change in the CMS from the back door?
Of course not, but I really don't know what message you are trying to send me. I think it's "don't bother with the Framework at all because it's so broken architecturally it's laughable. WHO would honestly use it?". That's the tone I'm picking up - sorry if that offends (too be clear, I'm taking "Why would I want to use JF?" as a patronising statement that our code is so bad you wouldn't touch it with a barge pole).
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by mad4joomla » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:35 am

If you don't change the Framework to LGPL I see no chance in competition against Zend Framework or Cake Framework.
If OSM / Joomla doesn't strive a wide use it should be GPL otherwise I see no alternative than LGPL.

As some pointed out it would be still open source.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by masterchief » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:37 am

nikosdion wrote:The FOF alpha was private. Case in point, it was included in a private directory in each extension of mine using it. There was a LOT of polishing before going public about it.
Nic, it was a metaphor suggesting that you started somewhere small and you eventually made something great out of it. We know the current Framework has problems but *I* want to work on fixing it. You don't have to but please allow others in the project to work on things you may not necessarily have an interest in.
nikosdion wrote:I changed the license to a more RESTRICTIVE one (from GPL v3 to v2). I did that because I'd be a real dick to require Joomla! to relicense to v3 to accommodate for my contribution.
Well, it's no worse than what we've been accused of. But the point is you changed a license to remove a blockage. We would like to be afforded the same opportunity. Sure, we might fail in 2 years and you may get your plastic toy in the mail, but what is it honestly going to hurt for you to support other people that are passionate about Joomla ...
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by masterchief » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:39 am

mad4joomla wrote:If you don't change the Framework to LGPL I see no chance in competition against Zend Framework or Cake Framework.
We don't want to compete - we just want to have individual packages available to be used by anyone. So you can use mostly Cake, but you can include a little bit of Joomla ... and vice versa.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by masterchief » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:48 am

I apologise Nic - it's been a long day and I'm cranky.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by nikosdion » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:03 am

Andrew, sorry for not making my message clear. No, I do not wish the JF to disappear. My wishes are, in this order:
- decide who your target audience is (mass distributed apps, bespoke apps, FOSS devs, proprietary devs, ...)
- then build the bare minimum of features to cater for your target audience
- then make a welcoming move towards your target audience
- then put the licensing issue on poll
FYI this is what I did with FOF, since you are using it as an example. Right now we're discussing the final step without knowing who this framework is supposed to be appealing to, if/when it will have the necessary features (necessary by whom?) and even worse discussing it with an audience that may not be your target audience. I am surely not the only one perceiving the absurdity of this situation, right?

If the target audience is not the Joomla! community then no, I don't think it's OK to use the trademark as it causes confusion. In this case I don't want you out of the OSM umbrella, I want you using a different name to prevent the confusion which is already abound. As you guys eloquently put it, it's Open Source Matters Inc not Joomla Inc.

I believe that personal grievances aside you and I deep down believe in the same core values. Had I not believed that I wouldn't participate in this discussion. I disagree with your methods, that's all.
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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by bigkahunajoomla » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:10 am

YES on LGPL and -1 for brian teeman

LGPL is the license of choice if you want the framework to spread or do you want people to be forced to publish all their freelance work to the public? stick on using the GPL for the framework means, there is no reason to develop it any longer as such, because no serious developer will be going to use it separate from the cms.

and yes, there will be folks who are going to use the framework but not giving nothing back to the community. it anyway is the case already with the GPL, so what do you win if you prevent the framework from spreading due to a too restrictive license (GPL) over the LGPL? with the LGPL you might reach people who never considered to get in touch with joomla before, with the GPL it stays in the circle that it is today.

I never understood why the GPL tea party here is building as many frontiers as they can while even the FSF proposes the LGPL for libraries and frameworks. are you pretending to be even more open-sourcy than the FSF? if you are, then at least be consequent and remove all non-GPL libraries from the cms. or better: create a JPL that is even more restrictive and invasive than the GPL and apply it to all joomla projects.

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Re: Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license cha

Post by brian » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:13 am

masterchief wrote:Ok, your right, it's the Framework's team to help educate the public about the Joomla Mission and why "Joomla" means more than just a web site tool. Maybe you can help with that in your presentations around the world (of course, if you don't agree with the Mission, I guess that's not going to happen).
When I speak at a Joomla event (or a non-joomla event for that matter) it is always at the invitation of the event organisers and almost without exception on a subject of their choice. As it is them who are covering the travel expenses I think it's only fair that I speak on the subject that they ask me to speak on and not dictate a different subject.

When Open Source Matters are paying the expenses for someone to speak at an event I can see how it is possible to say "we are sending a speaker to speak on x" and as far as I am aware that is something that does happen.
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