[Unofficial] Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

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[Unofficial] Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by NivF007 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:13 am

THIS IS THE FINAL TALLY FOR ALL VOTES UP TO AND INCLUDING ANY PM'D TO ME OR LISTED ON THE "Feedback on potential Joomla! Framework LGPL license change" AS OF 11:59PM E.S.T. MARCH 7th, 2014.

NO FURTHER UPDATES WILL BE PROVIDED


This is tally includes those who have expressed views either pro GPL or pro LGPL on http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=704&t=836361, or users who have PM'd me through this forum to have their vote registered and recorded in this tally.

I have done my best to be accurate and have gone through the posts from beginning to end, as of the time above, and also done my best to ascertain the position held.

Removed from this tally
- one user who wished to remain 'neutral'
- one user who was formerly listed as + LGPL but did not wish to be included in this tally.

The final count is

Supporting GPL: 64
Supporting LGPL: 28


----

Please keep in mind that is a very 'unofficial tally' based on positions held on thread linked above for which OSM has sought feedback prior to voting on licensing for the Joomla! Framework, or from those that have PM'd me as per the instructions above.

---

PLEASE DO NOT PROVIDE OPINIONS OR ARGUMENTS ON THIS POST. THIS TOPIC IS INTENDED STRICTLY TO KEEP A TALLY AND NOTHING MORE.

---

With respect to the attached spreadsheets, the latest version (V11) applies.

View online at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... sp=sharing

---

EDIT: In addition to the above mentioned tally (summarized in the spreadsheets below), Andrew Eddie had conducted a survey last year, called the Joomla! Platform LGPL Survey. Andrew's survey is available for review at http://www.slideshare.net/AndrewEddie/j ... y-15825187

Here is a summary of the data from Andrew's Joomla! Platform LGPL Survey

(+ is approved LGPL, - is disapproved GPL):

Total: +72, -41
Signed CLA: +24, -10
Contributed Platform/FW code: +21, -5
Contributed CMS code: +34, -13
Written extensions: +62, -29

-------------------------

THANKS TO OSM FOR SEEKING PUBLIC FEEDBACK, TO EVERYBODY WHO CONTRIBUTED TO THE FEEDBACK THREAD OR WHO PM'D ME WITH THEIR POSITION.

NOW LET'S ALL GET BACK TO WORK!!! :geek: CLIENTS, SUBSCRIBERS AND THE JOOMLA! PROJECT NEEDS YOU! (YES YOU!) :)
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Last edited by NivF007 on Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:46 am, edited 10 times in total.

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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by Torettox84 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:34 pm

Good job on reading those hundreds of posts. That must have really been a pain in the butt, seeing as how a group of people just keep repeating their opinion over and over again.

Just a few issues with your selected method:

- Wouldn't you agree it's better if you'd limit the post count to votes that are in the "open"? I believe that's only fair as you seem to expect people to go out of their way to submit proof for claims you / they made in the other thread.

- Are you also calculating the votes of the people who are so confused by a seemingly endless thread, that don't even know what they're voting for anymore?

- Are you seriously discouraging people to post in the thread which was made especially to vote on the subject?

:pop

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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by AmyStephen » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:59 pm

My rights as a citizen of the world for free and open elections are violated by these secret PM ballots.

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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by NivF007 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:34 pm

Torettox84 wrote:Good job on reading those hundreds of posts. That must have really been a pain in the butt, seeing as how a group of people just keep repeating their opinion over and over again.
I hope it is helpful :).
Torettox84 wrote:Just a few issues with your selected method:

Wouldn't you agree it's better if you'd limit the post count to votes that are in the "open"? I believe that's only fair as you seem to expect people to go out of their way to submit proof for claims you / they made in the other thread.
Usernames are included in the excel sheet - it pretty much makes that person's vote in the "open."

It's easy to check if there is a username in the system, how long they've been a user and how they voted.

That's why the excel sheet is included.

It is really the duty of the OSM Board to accept contributors as members, keep accurate records of those members, and ensure proper and auditable voting procedures. Once that is done, it would be easy to give contributing members of the OSM community a 'real vote' in these affairs.

To be clear, what you see above is merely an 'unofficial tally.'
Torettox84 wrote:Are you also calculating the votes of the people who are so confused by a seemingly endless thread, that don't even know what they're voting for anymore?
No. I'm calculating the votes of those who've expressed their vote. I have admittedly read that behemoth of a thread in developing this list and I have no confusion whatsoever in my vote.
Torettox84 wrote:Are you seriously discouraging people to post in the thread which was made especially to vote on the subject?
Thanks for restricting your comments to the topic of this thread, which is simply to keep a tally of peoples votes from the other thread.

Please feel free to express your views and opinions on the LGPL Framework feedback thread listed at the top of the first post :)
Last edited by NivF007 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by NivF007 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:37 pm

AmyStephen wrote:My rights as a citizen of the world for free and open elections are violated by these secret PM ballots.
Amy!!!!

That's sweet of you to pop in here. Welcome to the tally keeping party!!!!

No secrets. Usernames are in the excel sheets so everybody can see how everybody voted.

I just have to make a quick update as one user has notified me of an error - which will be corrected in V6.

N

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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by AmyStephen » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:46 pm

I cannot use data in that format. It's created by an evil vendor who wants to lock me into only their solutions. I don't have the source code, either, to try to discover and fix bugs.

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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by AmyStephen » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:48 pm

I'm still waiting for a response!

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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by NivF007 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:59 pm

AmyStephen wrote:I cannot use data in that format. It's created by an evil vendor who wants to lock me into only their solutions. I don't have the source code, either, to try to discover and fix bugs.
Amy - oh boy! oh boy! oh boy! do I have good news for you!!!!
Sun Microsystems (now a part of Oracle) have given the handy OpenOffice.org, a free and open source alternative to MS Office. It is a full-featured suite and a MS Office alternative that can hold its own among the clutch of document editors
You can find out more by reading the article How to Open Word, Excel (.doc, .docx, xlsx etc) Files Without MS Office Installed at http://www.guidingtech.com/10167/open-w ... installed/

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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by phproberto » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:13 am

I cannot open that file. You should know that not everybody has Microsoft privative software. A google doc would be better because we can also check the changes done.

As I cannot open it I'm not sure if it has a role column. I suggest you to know the profile of the vote. Example: coder, speaker, lawyer, troll... I think it would be very informative.

What happens if another one adds my name and I don't realise about it? Brian has a lot of known people and I'm sure he is able to add like 1000 names himself saying no to LGPL.

Another question: why are you managing this? Who decided that? I think we should do a poll first to decide who can do the poll. You said publicly that you are against LGPL so I think we need someone neutral. Maybe Rasmus Lerdorf.

Also this has to be in public. Create the poll in a closed group without telling the entire Joomla! community this is done is wrong. We should spread this on google groups, facebook, linkedin, twitter, messenger and ICQ. I think 1 month of promotion is a fair point.

Maybe we should create a component to track votes. That way we could filter IPs and be sure nobody cheats. I know that Australia has a national proxy network that allows to do that kind of things.

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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by reeseyontz » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:20 am

Niv, I have attempted to download the file several times on my phone but it still cannot open it. May I suggest a file format that is more open and less proprietary, perhaps a CSV? Of course part of the problem may be the way the forum handles attachments and my phone not liking it. But I still think we should have the tally in an open format.

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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by NivF007 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:39 am

phproberto wrote:I cannot open that file. You should know that not everybody has Microsoft privative software. A google doc would be better because we can also check the changes done.

As I cannot open it I'm not sure if it has a role column. I suggest you to know the profile of the vote. Example: coder, speaker, lawyer, troll... I think it would be very informative.

What happens if another one adds my name and I don't realise about it? Brian has a lot of known people and I'm sure he is able to add like 1000 names himself saying no to LGPL.

Another question: why are you managing this? Who decided that? I think we should do a poll first to decide who can do the poll. You said publicly that you are against LGPL so I think we need someone neutral. Maybe Rasmus Lerdorf.

Also this has to be in public. Create the poll in a closed group without telling the entire Joomla! community this is done is wrong. We should spread this on google groups, facebook, linkedin, twitter, messenger and ICQ. I think 1 month of promotion is a fair point.

Maybe we should create a component to track votes. That way we could filter IPs and be sure nobody cheats. I know that Australia has a national proxy network that allows to do that kind of things.
I'm not going to argue with any of your points because I agree with much of what you have to say as completely valid.

If you need to the open the doc, use OpenOffice, it's free, it's open-source and it will work.

As I've stated in my initial post
NivF007 wrote:Please keep in mind that is a very 'unofficial tally' based on positions held on thread linked above for which OSM is seeking feedback prior to voting on licensing for the Joomla! Framework, or from those that have PM'd me as per the instructions above.
I would very much LOVE to see OSM/Joomla! evolve into a membership based organization with provisions for electronic voting.

I have been a very strong advocate that the OSM Board begin the process of admitting members from the community, keep accurate records - and then it would be officially OSM Members who could enabled to vote, and system such as you outline could be viable - I would fully support that!!!

I've also advocated that the decision on the licensing be delayed until such a system is in place, or at the very least, the community is able to elect the OSM Directors who will represent them.

The new OSM Board is going to need some time to figure out the logistics to get us from here to there, so the interim, I guess we have to live with what we've got.

N

PS

In the meanwhile, I've attached a PDF and if I have time, will use Google Docs - hope that helps cover the gap for now.
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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by NivF007 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:40 am

reeseyontz wrote:Niv, I have attempted to download the file several times on my phone but it still cannot open it. May I suggest a file format that is more open and less proprietary, perhaps a CSV? Of course part of the problem may be the way the forum handles attachments and my phone not liking it. But I still think we should have the tally in an open format.
Hope the PDF works for you - see attached
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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by chrisjg » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:46 am

Hi, I've pm'd you with my 'vote' but I'm confused with the document. It looks like all the votes are for gpl but still lists 23 LGPL - see image.

This could be because of the excel format of the file (should really use an open source format imho).

Also, in my PM I've asked for a flag to show framework contributors in the list, just as an enhancement to the data, not because those who've contributed have a more important vote. I haven't, so this isn't an ego thing for me. Seems like at least one other person here would like similar 'extras' added to the data.

Image
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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by AmyStephen » Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:03 am

Community members without forum accounts are unable to download these files and it is not fair to alienate them from this information.

Further, without a link to the source document there is absolutely no integrity to the voting process. It's not that I don't trust you, Niv, but trust should not be necessary if the process were transparent and open. Why are you making yourself a gatekeeper to this data instead of clearly linking back to the source information?

Also, it would be important to share the PM's, too, but first obtain permission before sharing private data. Also, make it clear that absent the source data, their votes cannot be used.

Had you involved the community, we would not be in this situation of trying to restore faith. Next time, consider the needs of others.

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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by NivF007 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:38 am

AmyStephen wrote:Community members without forum accounts are unable to download these files and it is not fair to alienate them from this information.

Further, without a link to the source document there is absolutely no integrity to the voting process. It's not that I don't trust you, Niv, but trust should not be necessary if the process were transparent and open. Why are you making yourself a gatekeeper to this data instead of clearly linking back to the source information?

Also, it would be important to share the PM's, too, but first obtain permission before sharing private data. Also, make it clear that absent the source data, their votes cannot be used.

Had you involved the community, we would not be in this situation of trying to restore faith. Next time, consider the needs of others.
Nice try!!!! I especially love your "next time, consider the needs of others" comment!!! It's beautiful!!!

Thanks! I needed a good chuckle.

Let's be clear:

1) I'm not in a position in which I am trying or need to 'restore faith;'

2) I am not a "gatekeeper," just somebody with initiative. If you, Amy Stephens, want to take the same initiative and start a 'tally',' I've got some good news for you - you can!!!

3) If you read the initial post, this is an 'unofficial tally' of people who either expressed their votes on thread or PM'd me. I think it's been made pretty clear what's included and what's not from the outset.

4) That said, if somebody were to 'tweet' their vote somewhere in the cyber universe or 'sneezed' their response at a Joomla! event,' written their vote on a piece of paper in some cafe and passed it under the table to one of their friends or written it on a bathroom wall, then you would not find their vote recorded here. If you want to hang me for that, go ahead! If for those reasons, you do not find the tally useful, don't use it. Other people might.

5) The 'excel sheet' is downloadable, includes the username and their vote. It could not be more transparent or auditable. I am now converting it to an 'Open Document' format as suggested by some folks who have responding with something 'constructive' - (i.e. a request to which it is possible to oblige and improves what we are attempting to do here. (I'm usually pretty good like that).

6) Non-forum users being prevented from downloading documents: Hmmm...not my choice. I have no power over that. Talk to the Global Administrators of the Forum. It's a setting change (I believe one check box). If they agree to that, believe me, I have no problem with that - in fact, I would support you in your request. (You can quote me in your request to them).

7) I've already outlined what an official poll, or vote, inclusive of all OSM/Joomla! community members should look like, in response to phproberto - and I agree with, and support much of what phproberto has put forward.

Amy, one these days you will win an argument with me. It will be based on valid points and solid arguments. You will win it on its merits, but not on being catty. You will likely highlight some flaw in logic or facts presented that represents a glaring error on my part. When that day comes, I will send you gift card to go have some drinks at restaurant of your choice. I promise you that, you can quote me and refer back to this.

That day, however, is not today.

N

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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by NivF007 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:47 am

The spreadsheet is now available for download at the first post of this topic, in three formats (the 'evil' XLSX, the 'most portable' PDF and the 'saintly and super-sexy open document format' ods). HURRAHH!!!

I hope this will enable everybody to download it.

I will do my next update at some point tomorrow!

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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by reeseyontz » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:36 pm

NivF007 wrote:The spreadsheet is now available for download at the first post of this topic, in three formats (the 'evil' XLSX, the 'most portable' PDF and the 'saintly and super-sexy open document format' ods).
Niv, first let me thank you for making this available in so many formats. But I do disagree with the "most portable PDF" statement above. I find that the most portable spreadsheet is a text based one that does not require me to download a separate program to view it. You see, my issue is that XLSX requires me to install MS Office, PDF requires me to install a PDF reader and the ODS requires me to download Open Office. I just asked for a simple comma delimited text file which most people recognize as CSV. Is that really asking for too much? If a simple CSV were provided there would be no need for the other 3 file formats you have used as the two office suites mentioned above can read and write a text file just as easily as any other.

I also want to second Amy's suggestion of providing a link to the source document (which I would prefer to be CSV) so that someone, like myself, who is pained by opening a web browser and logging into a forum to download a file. I would be much happier on the command line running 'wget <address to file>' and then viewing said file with my favorite text editor. And as I mentioned before, my phone is having problems downloading files from the forum, but I believe an external URL would work better with it. I had 4 failed download attempts on the XSLX file and 3 on the PDF. I do not understand why it will not download those as I have not had problems in the past; so, my only conclusion is that the problem is related to the forum where these were the first files I had attempted to download on my phone.

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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by NivF007 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:52 pm

@ reeseyontz

Can you try https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... _web#gid=0

Also, please let me know if the csv format attached works for you.

I can only include 3 files in any one post - so I can add the link above, and I can use

.csv
.pdf
.ods

As far as the so called 'souce' doc - it's the 'evil' .xlsx - the real 'source' is the thread on which this matter is being discussed, and folks who have PM'd me, the first being publicly available.

For those that have PM'd me, since their username is listed, it does not make it possible to 'fudge' the tally.

I hope this solves the problem.

N
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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by brian » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:31 pm

phproberto wrote:
What happens if another one adds my name and I don't realise about it? Brian has a lot of known people and I'm sure he is able to add like 1000 names himself saying no to LGPL.
And that would be dishonest of me to do that. I hope you are not suggesting I am?

Anyway this is useless as its not a vote
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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by phproberto » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:34 pm

brian wrote:
phproberto wrote:
What happens if another one adds my name and I don't realise about it? Brian has a lot of known people and I'm sure he is able to add like 1000 names himself saying no to LGPL.
And that would be dishonest of me to do that. I hope you are not suggesting I am?

Anyway this is useless as its not a vote
I want to publicly say that my post was trying to be a joke. I see I'm also bad on joking. I'm sorry if this has made someone feeling bad.

So this message is to say:

- I don't believe Brian is going to add 1000 names in a list to cheat. I have no doubt he is an honest guy.
- I can open xlsx files with Libre Office
- I don't care at all about this list because it has 0 meaning
- I don't care about who manages this xls, pdf, whatever file
- Please don't call Rasmus Lerdorf to show him this [censored]
- Please do not create this over google groups, facebook, linkedin, twitter or messenger. If ICQ still exists please do it.
- I don't think that anybody should spend 1 minute to create a component to track this
- I don't think there is a proxies network on Australia to allow them to cheat on online polls.

I was trying to show Niv how easy is to bother others when they are giving the best for the project. I'm not surprised that Niv answered but I thought Brian would get it.

Now trolls can come back. Forum is all yours. :pop

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Re: Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by mbabker » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:42 pm

Thank you Niv for utilizing a source which is commonly used by many for document sharing in the Google Document for publishing your unofficial tally of the on-going LGPL licensing discussions regarding the Joomla! Framework. I believe this decision will appease everyone except for those who will not associate with Google services due to the fear that their activities are being monitored by government agencies in the United States.

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Re: [Unofficial] Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by NivF007 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:25 pm

@phproberto I'm not bothered so long as there are honest questions being asked :)

I had an inkling you were joking but always strive to answer questions as best I can - I take no offence to being predictable in that respect (especially since I find it irritating when people can't give straight answers).

@mbabker

I wear my special aluminum foil helmet when compiling the spread sheets so the U.S. Government Agencies can't tell what I'm thinking. :laugh:

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Re: [Unofficial] Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by Tonie » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:44 pm

Please remove my name from the document. If you must, change it to neutral. I'd rather you'd just remove it.

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Re: [Unofficial] Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by NivF007 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:52 pm

Tonie wrote:Please remove my name from the document. If you must, change it to neutral. I'd rather you'd just remove it.
I have removed it. This will be reflected in the next update (v7).

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Re: [Unofficial] Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by jodofin » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:24 am

NivF007 wrote:This is the vote count, as of 5:20pm (E.S.T.), March 3, 2014 for those who have expressed views either pro LGPL or against LGPL on http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=704&t=836361, or users who have PM'd me through this forum to have their vote registered and recorded in this tally.

---
Thanks for keeping the tally.

Hi when does this unofficial tally officially end?

You've got me right in the spreadsheet

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Re: [Unofficial] Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by NivF007 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:30 am

@jodofin - my pleasure.

I'm not sure. I think March 5th is the end of the thread, that started this tally, so that would be the first obvious end date, but Peter is planning doing Joomla! Beat show to discuss the issue on March 7th and I think folks listening might want to have a vote recorded.

I am open to suggestions.

N

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Re: [Unofficial] Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by astroboysoup » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:22 pm

Hey Niv,

What about those people in the community that don't read the forums and don't know that this debate is going on or are not wanting to vote on a public forum in fear?

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Re: [Unofficial] Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by brian » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:26 pm

Remember this forum is mainly only used by english speakers
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Re: [Unofficial] Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by NivF007 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:49 pm

astroboysoup wrote:Hey Niv,

What about those people in the community that don't read the forums and don't know that this debate is going on or are not wanting to vote on a public forum in fear?

Peter
What would you suggest?

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NivF007
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Re: [Unofficial] Vote Count: GPL vs. LGPL for Framework

Post by NivF007 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:14 am

brian wrote:Remember this forum is mainly only used by english speakers
!!!נכון


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