Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

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Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by porwig » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:05 am

This forum thread is for discussing this blog:
http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leade ... -lgpl.html
Paul Orwig

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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by Nick Savov » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:20 am

I just wanted to say a big thank you to Paul, Jacques, and everyone from OSM for putting in a ton of work and thought into this, as well as gathering feedback from the Joomla community and answering questions. It's amazing to have such professional volunteers. Thanks! :)

Cheers,
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by Astrophel » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:51 am

Thank you for the hard work, passion and dedication by all involved that has led to this decision.

I think this sets the stage for an expanded role and relevance of the community, whatever name the Joomla Framework is marketed under. It will be exciting to see how this licensing may pave the way to adoption in new and innovative ways. I believe a wider more varied audience can only be good for everyone involved.

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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by alikon » Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:26 am

"Alea iacta est" ie The die has been cast
so as outlined in announcement, now is time to "move forward all together".

i hope we will see in the next future a great contribution from big companies, contribute resources, developers, code, patches to have a even better framework...
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by brad » Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:08 am

Great work getting this "out the door" everyone.
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by mattsimonsen » Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:54 pm

I am excited to see how the Framework will continue to grow!

Thank you to all the people who have worked so hard in building it, and to OSM for doing the work to understand the issues and make a clear decision so we can move forward.
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by Chacapamac » Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:00 pm

I’m against the idea like MANY TOP DEV and FOUNDERS (Like Brian Teeman) are completely against it -
I’m sure that the loud voice of all those long time top contributors to the Joomla project mean that this is probably not as good as some people like you to think. Remember that that very change can PROFIT to some but not necessary to Joomla itself…. BEWARE !
TAKE THE TIME TO DIGG…. If you love Joomla!

http://brian.teeman.net/joomla/820-joom ... gpl-say-no

http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f ... 7#p3143217

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searc ... cOU2YQ1OIJ
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by NivF007 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:14 pm

Well, I've come around to supporting the change LGPL (and even advocated for it) but as I suggested, I would have much preferred it if the OSM Board had delayed the decision until OSM Board members are elected by the community at large - it's regrettable that the current OSM Board chose not to exercise this discretion, despite the option being put on the table.

I hope that in the future, OSM will endeavor to be more democratic - despite my personal preference for the LGPL license, there are great deal in the community of contributors, likely the majority, who were opposed to the decision. It's seems to me, therefore, that OSM could care less about the wants of the community at large - despite seeking public opinion, and begs the question, who exactly are the current OSM Directors serving?

I'm sorry to say it, but my opinion is that this was an example of extremely poor leadership by those we count on to represent our interests.

In the future, I would very much like to have a seen a community-wide vote to determine such a major shift in licensing - I hope that the work of the Governance Working Group is progressing so that we can achieve that goal.

At this point, the 'die is cast,' and for those who remain, it's time to really come together in the supporting the Framework and all those who are working so hard for all our benefit (thank you Framework developers!! - and congrats to those who were advocating for the change in license).

Best to everybody.

Niv

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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by masterchief » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:21 pm

Niv, let's imagine this never happened and the Framework team today posted on their mailing list "Hey, what do we think about the LGPL?" Map out for me the entire process from start to finish that you think demonstrates open, transparent and good leadership. When you've done that, then map out who decides that should be so and why they should be able to decide. I am genuinely interested in working out how to improve this type of process (and I think it's success was due to hard work, not to impropriety as you might suggest), but I also want to see if there's any meat behind some of your rather extreme claims.

In other words, put what you would do on the line for people to critique. I'll have my red and blue pens at the ready.
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by vdrover » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:23 pm

Andrew, I think a separate thread would be the best place to have that discussion.
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by masterchief » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:30 pm

Ok that's fine. If anyone wants to give feedback about the 15 month process to change the license, please do so here:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... isdSHld6AU

This is a public mailing to read and subscribe. Your first post will be moderated to ensure you are human. You can also post and reply via email.

---
EDIT: Reformatted post to make it clear where to discuss feedback about the process.
Last edited by masterchief on Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by vdrover » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:44 pm

Thanks Andrew. I'm very interested to see what you come up with.
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by masterchief » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:56 pm

To be perfectly honest, so am I.
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by NivF007 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:24 pm

Andrew,

OSM has claimed publicly that it is moving towards having an OSM Board elected by the community (as opposed to the current situation in which the current directors, plus one past director, are voting in future directors).

That would entail having voting members, in accordance with OSM By-Laws, admitted to OSM.

It's a simple premise really. Follow through on that promise first, then have the vote when you have a community of 'voting members.' There is nothing complex about this.

Right now, the crux of the issue is two-fold

1) You have a small handful of directors, not elected by the community at-large, making decisions for that community; and

2) OSM has nothing to abide by the 'majority' of what the community wants.

Remember, I'm in support of LGPL - but despite asking for feedback on the community, in which respondents where overwhelmingly pro-GPL, OSM disregarded that and voted for the license change anyways - leaving one wondering what the point of OSM's exercise was in seeking community input to begin with - it was not followed up with a more formal poll of the community - and a decision was made.

As far as this decision was made - it's done. We were asked for feedback on it - OSM has mine.

My opinion is that Joomla! Community has been 'mugged' by OSM on this - it's not flattering (and I know I'll probably catch a lot of flack for expressing it) - but it's certainly a warranted response, given the circumstances - and one I think OSM Directors need to hear.

I really have nothing further to add - you may or may not like or agree with my opinion - that's fine.

I'd like to focus on projects and other endeavours that will benefit Joomla-ists, and not get into a renewed 'heated debate' - the last one took a great deal of our time, effort and energy that could have otherwise been used to advance our community and our collective goals, with no indication the 'public opinion' being sought by OSM was at all listened to anyways - as far as the tally I kept, folks who responded favoured GPL 2:1 over LGPL.

N

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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by masterchief » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:56 pm

As we say in this project, you have a right to a say, but not always your way. The idea of a community vote sounds very noble, but I simply don't believe you have or could come up with a plan to make it work on any level. If you do have a plan, and you have the courage to put your own ideas in the refiner's fire, you have a link for where to discuss it. I think you are ignoring the fact that maybe hard work won the day. But I'm going to ignore the fact that you accused the developers of mugging the community by association :P Maybe we should have a frank discussion about that in front of your JUG ;)
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by NivF007 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:38 pm

OSM Andrew, not the developers (in fact I include some developers whom I have a world of respect for in those whom I feel got 'mugged') - and be my guest with our local JUG - please accept my invite to sit in with us anytime.

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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by masterchief » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:51 pm

Niv, if the Framework team via the PLT did not request OSM to make the decision, we wouldn't be having this conversation. You cannot attack OSM with including us in the collateral damage. If developers have been mugged, presumably because of their strong philosophical stance, then OSM is hardly to blame for a decision other developers initiated. My personal stance is the PLT had enough authority to change the license without any consultation because the JCA allows it, but that probably would not have been a wise move (been there, done that, ripped the t-shirt).

But the bottom line is do you actually have any sort of plan written down that you think demonstrates good leadership? If not, then I suggest you need to come up with one to give your complaints substance and credibility.
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by NivF007 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:56 pm

I submitted a plan via the Governance Working Group to begin to admit members to OSM in accordance with OSM by-laws.

Hopefully we'll be getting an update from the Governance Working Group soon...

Andrew, is there anything you'd like to challenge me on?

I've got 5 minutes before a 'JUG' meeting...thanks

N

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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by masterchief » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:59 pm

NivF007 wrote:I submitted a plan via the Governance Working Group to begin to admit members to OSM in accordance with OSM by-laws.
Link?
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by NivF007 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:01 am

It's on Basecamp - send your request to join the GWG to Paul Orwig - I'm not part of the group anymore.

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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by masterchief » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:05 am

NivF007 wrote:It's on Basecamp - send your request to join the GWG to Paul Orwig - I'm not part of the group anymore.
Why do I need to be a member of a special group to comment on your own ideas? Don't you have a copy?
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by NivF007 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:09 am

Hmmm....the GWG was proposing a schedule in which the various 'models' for membership admittance would be put forward for public review - I'll start a new topic and request for that schedule to be posted - out of respect for the work of others, I don't want my model put forward ahead of anybody else's.

If no schedule is proposed for announcement from the GWG, then I will happily start a thread putting my model forward and asking for feedback.

Stay tuned...

N

EDIT: See http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=381&t=840925

Let's see what we hear back.

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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by masterchief » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:36 am

I'm more interested in your ideas for community voting on issues that would affect, for instance, the PLT's zone of responsibility and how it would have affected our process to change the license in retrospect. More than that, I'm more interested in suggestions about how we improve the level of understanding about licenses because it's still clear we have people that don't have a clue and that leaves them open to being swayed by hearsay (talk about mugging) - and that's what scares the willies out of me about your suggestion for "community" votes, whatever that really means.
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by NivF007 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:43 am

According to your philosophy, why not go so far as to say, "people are too stupid to vote, so we should take that privilege away?"

Really, Andrew, it's a very simple premise. There is a very wide community who contribute in numerous ways - let them have a vote in their affairs.

No rocket science, no smoke and mirrors.

N

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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by masterchief » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:54 am

NivF007 wrote:Really, Andrew, it's a very simple premise. There is a very wide community who contribute in numerous ways - let them have a vote in their affairs.
The granularity is my concern. Are you suggesting the community vote on each Pull Request? I suspect not (well, I hope not), but how you draw the box around what the community votes for, and then who has the right to vote are not easy questions to answer. However, if you do want a community that votes on each pull request, I'll look for another project thank you very much :)
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by NivF007 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:59 am

I'm suggesting that the community at large be permitted to vote in the OSM Directors whom they feel would best represent their interests, that means admitting members in accordance with the current OSM by-laws.

You then keep a record of those members, and when major decisions are to be made (i.e. a licensing change), let the members vote.

N

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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by masterchief » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:30 am

Please note that in my vocabulary "community" means anyone that things they have the right to have a say (that's the common vernacular around here). If you are talking about "members" of OSM, that's different but that brings to mind a whole host of questions depending on the model you are proposing.
NivF007 wrote:... and when major decisions are to be made (i.e. a licensing change), let the members vote.
That depends on the membership model you chose and the rights the members have. I would be looking very carefully at any rules that tried to define what decisions members could vote on. Or to put it another way, I'd be very keen to know what development decisions are officially delegated to the PLT (that's assuming it still exists in your new model). But, let's be serious - the physical cost of this discussion was only in time (albeit lots). The decision to spend probably something in the order of 50-100K (I have no idea what the figure was, just guessing based on past consulting experience) on revamping the JED went over without batting an eyelid, and you didn't get a say in that either. I would have thought this was worth more or your attention than a license change that could be legally made without any community consultation if it came to that (and I'm not making a cent from the decision). From my perspective, it's not fair :P
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by NivF007 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:42 am

Well, I encourage interested people to join the Governance Working Group.

I also think that PLT and CLT should have an election process by the community - something I expressed in the past.

We have a new OSM Board - and hopefully these matters will gain some ground.

Let's see what the GWG comes up with - they are exploring various models.

N

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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by vdrover » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:42 pm

Hey folks. Good discussion, but could you please move it to an appropriate thread.
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by jodofin » Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:56 pm

Thanks for consulting the community and providing an explanation of the outcome.

Lets hope this leads to a better Joomla.


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