Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by masterchief » Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:15 pm

porwig wrote:@Andrew - OSM asked PLT and the Framework team (including you) for feedback about what you all thought about the idea to potentially re-name the Framework, in an email thread that started before OSM made the LGPL decision.
Yes you did, but that's not what I'd classify as public consultation. I'm sure the consultants will know how to handle that properly.
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by FlashRebel » Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:14 am

Is this joke ?

I dont want to imagine what will be next step ...

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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by masterchief » Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:15 am

FlashRebel wrote:Is this joke ?

I dont want to imagine what will be next step ...
Indeed. I think the reality will be worse than what you dare not imagine ;)
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by FlashRebel » Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:34 am

masterchief wrote:Indeed. I think the reality will be worse than what you dare not imagine ;)
It depends, for subjects, which will profite from it, it will be beautifull :)

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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by masterchief » Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:55 am

FlashRebel wrote:It depends, for subjects, which will profite from it, it will be beautifull :)
If I was trying to make a profit from Open Source, I would not choose the Joomla Framework nor the Joomla CMS for that matter. There are much better horses to back these days.
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by NivF007 » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:07 am

MasterChief wrote:If I was trying to make a profit from Open Source, I would not choose the Joomla Framework nor the Joomla CMS for that matter. There are much better horses to back these days.
Okay - where does one even begin?

1) You can make substantial profits from open-source, and Joomla! is, IMHO, as good as it gets as far as 'horses to back' come.

2) I'm in this community, and vested in Joomla!, because I choose to spend my time and energy working in an open spirit of collaboration. If I have knowledge, code or experience that is helpful to my fellows, I'm happy to share it. It permits me to make a living, and live my life, in a way that is not 'us against them,' in a way that is competitive, but in way that we compete on who can come up with the best ideas - then I'm satisfied (in fact, feel very privileged and honoured to be a part of it!)

And as long as

1) there are like minded-people; and

2) it is clear that product of our collective efforts, and major decisions involving the project, belong to everybody who contributes (in any form)

Then that's good enough for me. I could care less about the specific license.

LGPL does not prevent the spirit of collaboration.

I've observed a few interesting things happen with the LGPL switch

1) an OSM Board that voted for the switch despite it being clear that the majority of the community who responded to their request for feedback on the issue were against it. This was, IMO, poor judgment.

2) GPL minded contributors, who've made tremendous contributions to Joomla!, capitulate to other projects. Again, IMO, poor judgment.

3) I have not seen any new substantial contributors jump on board since the decision was made. This was the underlying premise of the switch. A faulty premise, IMO.

It is these three points, IMHO, that give me cause for concern, as I believe we may have temporarily forgotten the vision of community and collaboration as the underlying foundation and driver of why we are involved in the Joomla! project to begin with.

I believe that GPL and LGPL are both perfectly good licenses for the Joomla! Framework.

I hope that others will share the view that the road forward is to put less emphasis on the GPL/LGPL license, but rather to reinvigorate and recommit to this great project and spirit of collaboration that we have going.

From user groups worldwide, volunteer contributors at all levels, tutorials, support, accessibility, creativity, great software, a tremendous software ecosystem - it's all right here, right now, and it's great to be a part of.

Try to imagine that what will happen next will be that this great thing we've got going on will only continue to get better - the best is yet to come.

N

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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by masterchief » Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:49 am

NivF007 wrote:1) You can make substantial profits from open-source, and Joomla! is, IMHO, as good as it gets as far as 'horses to back' come.
The main context of the comment is in relation to the Joomla Framework, which for all intensive purposes is a complete unknown in terms of a business choosing a technology to invest it. You'd be insane to start building a marketable product on it. It would be better to choose Laravel or Symfony. In terms of choosing a CMS platform I personally would not choose Joomla "today" because it's not growing and the project is just barely maintaining the code it's got as best it can. Any "vision" that the PLT has tried to inject into the community has been met with resistance or disagreement (3.4, the idea of distributions, the new development strategy, etc), and that's a worrying sign.

Whatever the case, the point being made implicitly was that the LGPL magically allows people to print money which is somewhat ridiculous. I mean, seriously - how does this project compete with the cash injections that WordPress, Drupal and Symfony are getting via their corporate benefactors. It's ridiculous to think that change this code to LGPL is going to make someone buckets of money.
NivF007 wrote:1) an OSM Board that voted for the switch despite it being clear that the majority of the community who responded to their request for feedback on the issue were against it. This was, IMO, poor judgment.
Still banging that drum Niv? ;). The majority of contributors to the code in question voted "for" the changes that people like Louis, myself and others set in motion years ago. The difference is coming from people who consider that they contribute to the Joomla that should only be known as a CMS (well, and other people who don't have a good grasp of neither the GPL nor the LGPL). That people were suddenly happy at the suggestion of a brand change shows this wasn't really a philosophical license issue save for one or two staunch GPL-ers.

OSM made the right legal decision to approve the license change. But, like the Framework Team and the PLT, it was holding onto the notion that the official Vision and Mission still stand. I think everyone needs to be honest and just admit that it's exclusively a CMS brand now and bow to the pressure from a small sector of the community that wants to keep it that way at any cost (we all know who that is). I feel most of the OSM board is still in line with the "old" Joomla principles, but people can only bang their head against a wall for so long.

In hindsight the developers should have distanced the code from Joomla brand as something new under OSM. If there's one thing I've learned about rubbing shoulders in the Node community it's how much I enjoy developer driv-en development again (like we used to have in the Mambo days and, for better or worse, up to the release of 1.5). Had a good conversation with the lead of the main Node CMS the other weekend too :) (a fellow Aussie no less - dejavu)
NivF007 wrote:2) GPL minded contributors, who've made tremendous contributions to Joomla!, capitulate to other projects. Again, IMO, poor judgment.
Who are we to judge what people do with their personal or professional time?
NivF007 wrote:3) I have not seen any new substantial contributors jump on board since the decision was made. This was the underlying premise of the switch. A faulty premise, IMO.
The switch has not been made yet it wouldn't surprise me if the PLT never get around to it. My prediction is that the Joomla Framework will die pretty quickly as an individual entity and only exist for the benefit of powering the new Issue Tracker. That's ok but a shame given some of us giving it our best shot (message received - you can code as long as it's only for the Joomla CMS). That said, new developers don't appear by magic and effort would have been required spanning several years to make it happen.
NivF007 wrote:It is these three points, IMHO, that give me cause for concern, as I believe we may have temporarily forgotten the vision of community and collaboration as the underlying foundation and [drive] of why we are involved in the Joomla! project to begin with.
I agree with the conclusion, but not the reasons for which you state it.
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by NivF007 » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:51 am

MasterChief wrote:The majority of contributors to the code in question voted "for" the changes that people like Louis, myself and others set in motion years ago.
I do not believe that is accurate, and certainly, we know that the majority of the people, by far, who responded to the request for public opinion from OSM where against.
MasterChief wrote:Still banging that drum Niv? ;).
Yup. Who the @#$@# is OSM representing anyways? I will continue to bang that drum :-), because I believe that is in the best interest of the project and it's contributors. I'm not anti-OSM - I just don't want the actual contributors (as defined in the by-laws) to be locked out of critical decisions - I was in the in the end, pro-LGPL - but yes, I have a big issue with the current paradigm. You want to label me as the 'bad guy' for standing up to and criticizing OSM on this, and being persistent on this - fine - I can be the bad guy.
MasterChief wrote:The main context of the comment is in relation to the Joomla Framework, which for all intensive purposes is a complete unknown in terms of a business choosing a technology to invest it.
Perhaps. But, IMHO, you'd be insane not to invest in the people behind it and to want to be a part of it in the same collaborative spirit of the Joomla! project. We need to get behind the Framework as best we can - I do believe great things are to come!
NivF007 wrote: 2) GPL minded contributors, who've made tremendous contributions to Joomla!, capitulate to other projects. Again, IMO, poor judgment.
MasterChief wrote:Who are we to judge what people do with their personal or professional time?
Nobody. I count at least 3 that I consider 'titans' - I think they left out of frustration - and they did so to their own detriment. I'm not anybody to tell them what to do - I'm sorry to see them go, and I think they've lost out.
MasterChief wrote:OSM made the right legal decision to approve the license change. But, like the Framework Team and the PLT, it was holding onto the notion that the official Vision and Mission still stand.
I'm still holding on to that notion. Are you suggesting the official Vision and Mission of the project has changed? When? What in your best understanding is the current Vision and Mission of the project?
MasterChief wrote:That's ok but a shame given some of us giving it our best shot (message received - you can code as long as it's only for the Joomla CMS).
You're just choosing to listen to the wrong people. Please see http://www.meetup.com/GTA-PHP-User-Grou ... 184361822/

We have our local PHP User Group and our local Joomla User Group fully behind the Joomla! Framework - what more can we do? Both groups are hoping for more collaboration - that's bringing the PHP groups and Joomla! User Groups together - and hopefully we can extend that worldwide.
MasterChief wrote:3.4, the idea of distributions
I LOVE THAT IDEA. It's brilliant. It's a 'no-brainer.' I reviewed some of info on that, and see that it seemed to stall, which is personally very disappointing - but that's going to happen. If I had the skills (which I'm working towards everyday), I'd be all over it.

---

Look, getting back on track. I think you touched on something very important - the GPL/LGPL debates and decisions was a 'fuse' lit up a variety of other issues - but Andrew, I do think the underlying issues are resolvable - there are no 'show stoppers' except for people who decide to bail because things don't go exactly their way.

LGPL is just fine, IMO - but if our official vision and mission has changed - then what is it we are a part of here?

And in spite all of this, I'm actually more engaged and more optimistic about this project than ever.
MasterChief wrote:My prediction is that the Joomla Framework will die pretty quickly as an individual entity
1) Don't get a job in sales! :P

2) I think it's going to be great!!

3) AA (hic) has a saying, "Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results." Time to "think outside the bun." How can we make Framework more exciting to be a part of? Can we have "Framework Application Cookbook Contests?" (i.e. who can come up with the best app?) and give away some exciting prizes.

There is just so much we can do - so if one door closes, we kick open another.

We are a creative dynamic community that can solve these problems together - we stop wasting time and effort on folks who are not receptive, and engage those who are.

GPL vs. LGPL is such a minor issue - but one we should be thankful for.

It brought all these other issues to light - and once we are cognizant of those, we can work towards some pretty cool solutions.

And IMHO, I believe that's where our focus should be. We are innovators and doers. Challenges, set backs and frustrations are merely temporary inconveniences.

N

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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by masterchief » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:13 am

NivF007 wrote:Nobody. I count at least 3 that I consider 'titans' - I think they left out of frustration - and they did so to their own detriment. I'm not anybody to tell them what to do - I'm sorry to see them go, and I think they've lost out.
I don't think you can be the judge of whether people's decisions are the best for them.
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by NivF007 » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:27 am

MasterChief wrote:I don't think you can be the judge of whether people's decisions are the best for them.
Well, at least in one case, after spending a couple of years and countless hours discussing their goals, I think I'm in a pretty good position to do so, out of genuine concern for someone I consider a friend - but let's agree to disagree - lest we stray from the key points.

Andrew - my view is that ultimately success will be achieved through collaboration.

On many fronts, I am in agreement with the goals, direction and vision that you and other have set out, so how can we better collaborate and get behind those efforts?

Can we focus on that?

Although we may have our disagreements at times, I am indeed grateful to benefit from your extensive experience and expertise.

Can we get away from the GPL/LGPL debates and focus instead on how we can collaborate to make this project as fun, exciting, engaging and rewarding as possible?

N

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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by masterchief » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:30 am

NivF007 wrote:Can we get away from the GPL/LGPL debates and focus instead on how we can collaborate to make this project as fun, exciting, engaging and rewarding as possible?
You'll have to do it without me, at least for a while. I don't know how long my sojourn in the world of Node will last.
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Re: Joomla Framework changes to LGPL

Post by NivF007 » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:17 pm

MasterChief wrote:You'll have to do it without me, at least for a while. I don't know how long my sojourn in the world of Node will last.
Well Andrew, you and I have been at each other's throats so much at times, I now consider you good friend and a 'worthy adversary.' (Funny how that works).

As I've said, I feel grateful to be able to benefit from your extensive expertise and experience, so personally, I am quite disappointed that you are disengaging (even temporarily).

I do very much believe that in-spite of the GPL/LGPL and Branding squabbles we seem to have had in recent times, that as a community we've made far too much of it, and that the state and health of the project overall is as good or better than it's ever been.

I look around and see so many amazing people and things happening with project, I maintain that those who have been major contributors who are disengaging for those reasons are doing so just as Joomla! is getting better than ever, but there are enough good people - and more coming on board everyday, that while regrettable, this is in no way a crisis.

My offer stands - if I can be of assistance to you in your stated goals for the Joomla! project (even the ones that have stalled in the past), just let me know.

Wishing you luck with node - certainly looks interesting - just remember you've got an ally here in the Joomla! project!

N


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