Call for Nominations - Department Coordinator Team Lead

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Re: Call for Nominations - Department Coordinator Team Lead

Post by Webdongle » Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:39 pm

tj.baker wrote:...
If this volunteer is a Team Member they will vote for Team Leader, who represents them in voting for the other positions as Ken outlined in the voting procedures in his last update.
Does the Team leader
  1. Vote according to their preference without any input from the Team members ?
    or
  2. Vote according to the majority wishes of their team ?
    or
  3. Vote according to their preference after considering the majority view of the Team members ?
If #1 then perhaps the nominees for Team leaders should have declared their policy in regards to the Department Co-ordinator before the vote for Team leader ? Other wise Team members votes would have been made without having the full information to vote on.

If #2 will their be a separate voting process for each team where the members of each team can vote so that their (respective) Team leader can cast their vote for the Department Co-ordinator according to the majority ?
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Re: Call for Nominations - Department Coordinator Team Lead

Post by ChiefGoFor » Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:50 pm

Hi Webdongle,

Instead of directly answering your questions, I'm going to try to restate what TJ said differently. I think it will change your questions (if you have any).

These are my words. For the "official" words, you would want to look at the By-Laws.
http://opensourcematters.org/images/doc ... ByLaws.pdf

Voting for a Team Lead:
Members of a team vote for their Team Lead.

Voting for the Department Coordinator Team Lead
Team Leads within a given department will each place one vote for their Department Coordinator Team Lead.

Voting for Officers (President, Vice President, Treasurer, Secretary)
Each department gets 1 vote for each Officer positions. The department's vote is determined by a vote from within the department itself by each Team Lead and Department Coordinator Team Lead.
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Re: Call for Nominations - Department Coordinator Team Lead

Post by Webdongle » Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:46 pm

Voting for the Department Coordinator Team Lead
Team Leads within a given department will each place one vote for their Department Coordinator Team Lead.
Nope my questions still stand because there is nothing to say what criteria the Team Leads use to cast their vote. Although by inference it appears that the Team Leaders vote for the Department Coordinator of their choice and not according to the majority wishes of the Team members.

If that is the case then surely many members of each team would have cast their vote for Team leader without knowing the full implications of the vote ?
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Re: Call for Nominations - Department Coordinator Team Lead

Post by ChiefGoFor » Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:50 pm

Hi Webdongle,

The Team Lead is not required to inquire from the members of its team before casting their vote for the Department Coordinator Team Lead. I can not say if people knew the implications of their vote or not. they voted for their leader. This is one of the things their appointed leader will do as part of their role. :)
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Re: Call for Nominations - Department Coordinator Team Lead

Post by Webdongle » Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:18 pm

Then perhaps the nominees for Team Leader should have declared their views on Department Coordinator before the vote for Team Leader took place ? In any case if the volunteers are not happy with the Department Coordinators or the way the Department Coordinators vote for Officers ... then surely next time there is a Team Leader vote the Team Leaders choice will be a big consideration ?

If the Team members don't like the way the Officers are handling things and they don't like who the Department Coordinators vote into Office ,,, then knowing which Department Coordinator the Team Leaders vote for could be a deciding factor of how the Team members vote ?

That is why I said (about the recent vote for Team Leader) "then surely many members of each team would have cast their vote for Team leader without knowing the full implications of the vote ?"
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Re: Call for Nominations - Department Coordinator Team Lead

Post by ChiefGoFor » Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:33 pm

Then perhaps the nominees for Team Leader should have declared their views on Department Coordinator before the vote for Team Leader took place ? In any case if the volunteers are not happy with the Department Coordinators or the way the Department Coordinators vote for Officers ... then surely next time there is a Team Leader vote the Team Leaders choice will be a big consideration ?
The Nominations for Department Coordinator Team Lead have not even finished coming in yet. There is no way for a Team Lead to to declare their views on any one. I can't say what will be a consideration or not. That is speculating.
If the Team members don't like the way the Officers are handling things and they don't like who the Department Coordinators vote into Office ,,, then knowing which Department Coordinator the Team Leaders vote for could be a deciding factor of how the Team members vote ?
I can't comment on speculation.
That is why I said (about the recent vote for Team Leader) "then surely many members of each team would have cast their vote for Team leader without knowing the full implications of the vote ?"
I can not comment on the speculation part, but when you vote someone to be your "Leader", you are giving them authority to make decisions on behalf of the team. That's how leadership works.
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Re: Call for Nominations - Department Coordinator Team Lead

Post by Webdongle » Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:19 pm

The Nominations for Department Coordinator Team Lead have not even finished coming in yet. There is no way for a Team Lead to to declare their views on any one. I can't say what will be a consideration or not. That is speculating.
In that case why have the vote for Team Leaders before they can state their intentions for an important part of their duties that the Team members are voting them in for ?

I can not comment on the speculation part, but when you vote someone to be your "Leader", you are giving them authority to make decisions on behalf of the team. That's how leadership works.
When People vote to give the 'authority to make decisions on (their) behalf' ... then they are usually given information on the nominees 'position' relating to how they will represent the voter. That is how elections and voting work in democracy.

People vote depending on the information they are given before the vote ... that is fact not speculation.
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Re: Call for Nominations - Department Coordinator Team Lead

Post by ChiefGoFor » Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:28 pm

Kevin,

A before B, B before C.

The entire voting process is outlined in the By-Laws:
http://opensourcematters.org/images/doc ... ByLaws.pdf

There is nothing more I can say. Let's please move on.
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Re: Call for Nominations - Department Coordinator Team Lead

Post by mandville » Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:12 pm

Normally i would say that a team has voted for someone to make decisions on tbeor behalf with due care BUT in some cases i guess buddy voting will happen. In the teams there was no apparent standard format of voting or campaigning.
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Re: Call for Nominations - Department Coordinator Team Lead

Post by mbabker » Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:38 am

This is an issue that has happened in Joomla history where the team members demanding a leader vote a specific way and the leader who made the vote electing to vote based on their individual decision feeling that the team's "demanded" vote was not in the best interest of the project; it actually came to a point where some members of leadership at the time choose to "punish" that leader for making the conflict public (if you saw the transcript of that chat you know full well at that point it was borderline harassment) versus address the behavior of the team members, I feel in part because of the usual "buddy system" that has existed in Joomla's leadership (there are favored individuals in each group).

Personal opinions aired publicly now, the team leader is elected to represent their team. As such, they should be entrusted to make appropriate decisions in all matters. If everything comes back to a "decide by committee" structure where the leader cannot take any action unless the full team approves, honestly nothing will get done. By questioning how the team leader may vote, to me this implies that there is not a trust between you and the team leads of any teams you may be a member of. In some cases it may be appropriate for the team lead to host an open discussion among their team about a voting topic, in other cases it may be appropriate for the lead to make a decision of their own accord. There is no single blanket answer.
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Re: Call for Nominations - Department Coordinator Team Lead

Post by ChiefGoFor » Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:47 am

Thanks Babker... well said.
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Re: Call for Nominations - Department Coordinator Team Lead

Post by Webdongle » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:26 am

the team members demanding a leader vote a specific way and the leader who made the vote electing to vote based on their individual decision feeling that the team's "demanded" vote was not in the best interest of the project; it actually came to a point where some members of leadership at the time choose to "punish" that leader for making the conflict public (if you saw the transcript of that chat you know full well at that point it was borderline harassment) versus address the behavior of the team members, I feel in part because of the usual "buddy system" that has existed in Joomla's leadership (there are favored individuals in each group).
I am not demanding the Team members should have a say in the Department Coordinator.

There have been many instances where people have been 'punished' for bringing things into the open. But this is not about brining something (that's hidden) out into the open. It is about if everyone who gives their time to Joomla gets a say in who is given the power to steer their efforts or just a few.


If everything comes back to a "decide by committee" structure where the leader cannot take any action unless the full team approves, honestly nothing will get done
Too true if it applied to everything


By questioning how the team leader may vote, to me this implies that there is not a trust between you and the team leads of any teams you may be a member of.
To me it implies that everyone who gives their time to Joomla gets a say in who is given the power to steer their efforts.

In some cases it may be appropriate for the team lead to host an open discussion among their team about a voting topic, in other cases it may be appropriate for the lead to make a decision of their own accord. There is no single blanket answer.
And the question was about whether the vote for the Department Coordinator should one of the cases that the Team members should have a say in or if it should solely be the choice of the Team leader. If the former then everyone who gives their time to Joomla gets a say ... if the latter then it falls to the 'buddy system'.

Even if (prior to the Team Leader vote) there is discussion about who the Team Leader nominees favour to vote for as Department Coordinator ... the Team members (in time) will get to know which Team leader nominees are likely to vote in as Department Coordinator. Therefore the Team Leader nominees might as well state how they think Joomla should be run. Surely the Team members (who give their time to Joomla) deserve to have the full facts before they make their votes.
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Re: Call for Nominations - Department Coordinator Team Lead

Post by ChiefGoFor » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:37 am

Thank you Kevin,

I believe you have made your point. This thread is for people to ask questions about the process, not as much for people to disagree with the process. The process is in the By-Laws. That is what the Transition Team has to follow. If you wish make a change, please discuss with Leadership and/or get involved in a Leadership position and make changes within. If you wish to continue this discussion, please do it in another thread.

I have no doubts you have the best intentions with this discussion. I'm not trying to keep you from stating your opinions. I am just trying to keep this thread on topic. Thank you!
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Re: Call for Nominations - Department Coordinator Team Lead

Post by Webdongle » Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:02 am

ChiefGoFor wrote:...
I believe you have made your point. This thread is for people to ask questions about the process, not as much for people to disagree with the process. ...
I am asking about the process and the affects of that process. I am not disagreeing with the process
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Re: Call for Nominations - Department Coordinator Team Lead

Post by ChiefGoFor » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:11 pm

While the official answer is in the By-Laws, I understand that not everyone likes to read Legal documents. For a basic version of the voting process, please see my earlier post:

viewtopic.php?f=704&t=943369&p=3451973#p3451918
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Re: Call for Nominations - Department Coordinator Team Lead

Post by ChiefGoFor » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:53 pm

Because I was asked elsewhere:

For those curious, there is no reason why a Department Coordinator can not run for an Officer position. If a Department Coordinator is voted in as an Officer, their Department Coordinator role will have to be back-filled.
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