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drh3rdiii
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Making 'calls' to files/folders outside the document root help please

Post by drh3rdiii » Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:04 pm

Redirection help please. I believe that is what it happening. If wrong, please tell me I am looking in the wrong place.

I am retooling a new site begun in the very early Joomla 1.* days. Everything is current. PHP 7.4, Joomla 3.9.27, MySql, Apache2… everything is pretty current stable. I have rebuilt from a fresh install of everything, and important the articles. So it is brand spanking new. And everything is working. Except, my understanding of what I think is ‘redirection’. I have Admin Tools installed too and have been scouring documentation and searches for the following.

Let’s say the site answers to www.xyz.com Everything working. I am wanting to preserve one directory that is a plain, straight up web site. index.html calls several sub html pages and images. It previously answered to wireless.xyz.com

It was in it’s own folder. As in outside the document root for www.xyz.com I wanted to ‘nest’ this folder under the document root for www.xyz.com so instead of

public_html/xyz (www.xyz.com) and separately public_html/wireless (wireless.xyz.com)

I wanted to establish public/xyz/wireless so www.xyz.com answers to Joomla, and wireless..xyz.com answers in public_html/xyz/wireless

The call to wireless.xyz.com breaks. I am getting a Forbidden
You don't have permission to access this resource.

“Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.”

Note that I went into the Domains and Subdomains in Cpanel and pointed to the domain for xyz.com to the proper document root that worked great. And then pointed to the subdomain wireless to point to the public_html/xyz/wireless and that latter is broken.

I then went back to Cpanel to repoint the subdomain back to public_html/wireless, in other words the original mechanism, and it is still broken.

Soooo, I am now staring at what I think is happening, which are .htaccess in the document root for xyz.com. I have disabled redirection. Have temporarily moved .htaccess out of the way for xyz.com, and continue to get the 403 error. And yes, cleared the cache for my browsers (multiple, for testing), and I am getting the same error.

Am also getting errors no matter what for any kind of ‘call’ to an external file, like a .jpg, that I linked to from an article in the Joomla web site. No go.

So, am crawling thru documentations, examples, trying to understand how to fix this. All links inside of the Joomla installation work great. But any call to like the subdomain, or a file like an image file or similar, am getting the 403 error. Disabling redirection, disabling .htaccess, are not having any effect. So am now spinning my wheels trying to resolve this which I KNOW is my lack of understanding at this level. I even yes, did the chmod 777 for the subfolder wireless and all it’s contents for a brief moment to see if… no, no go. And as said, reverting back to the original folder with Cpanel did not resurrect it.

Soooo, asking for help, guidance, pointer, on this. AM sure I have over/under/not explained this well enough. Am pretty certain Akeeba Admin Tools is what’s driving this. A fantastic toolkit by the way. I mostly understand it, but on this, am running into a cul-de-sac. I just want to be able to, need to be able to… make calls to files, folders, that are not in the Joomla install itself, even tho for instance the folder public_html/xyz/wireless is inside the document root for the web site. But, well… am stuck.

Help? A pointer? Have been at this for a week as there are a boatload of files, articles, etc… and am almost done. Will post the completed site once I get this piece resolved.

tx

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Re: Making 'calls' to files/folders outside the document root help please

Post by sozzled » Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:13 pm

Perhaps someone may have a better insight about this situation—it's not a situation that I've encountered or tried to engineer myself, BTW—but I'm clueless to provide you with good advice at the moment. Even after spending a few minutes reading the fairly detailed explanation you gave (thank you :)) I don't fully appreciate all the implications of how *redirection* plays a role here.

My guess is that it could take a while (half an hour or so) explaining your problem to someone else in real-time via teleconference. I'm happy to sit down with you over a cup of coffee and talk this over with you, if that would help. At least it would help me to understand what you want and advise you on how best to outline your objectives even if I can't necessarily prescribe a solution. Would that help you?

I'm also not sure how your problem relates to J! 3.x security. I don't think the outline of your situation necessarily relates to this being a security problem. It sounds more like a general question about how best to interlink some old web content you've salvaged with your new J! website.

UPDATE: I see that this topic has been relocated to the "general questions" forum. 8)
Last edited by sozzled on Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making 'calls' to files/folders outside the document root help please

Post by Webdongle » Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:36 pm

You need to create a subdomain in your Host's cp
Some Hosting packages allow you to choose a folder if that is the case with your Host then
1. You need your Domain.com folder in the www folder and point the Domain to it in the Host's cp
2. Your subDomain needs to be in the www folder (parallel to the Domain.com folder) and point the subDomain to it in the Host's cp

If the Hosting package creates the subDomain folder then it creates it in a folder under the folder that contains the Domain.com files. This is not ideal and can cause problems.

In both cases the folder that the subDomain is in is considered root for subDomain.Domain.com


e.g.
/www (public_html)
-/Domain folder (reached with www.Domain.com)
-/subDomain folder (reached with subDomain.Domain.com)

/Domain folder (reached with www.Domain.com)
-/subDomain folder (reached with subDomain.Domain.com and www.Domain.com/subDomain)
This is where it gets complicated
Reached with subDomain.Domain.com then -/subDomain folder is considered root
but
Reached with www.Domain.com/subDomain then the /Domain folder is the root
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: Making 'calls' to files/folders outside the document root help please

Post by drh3rdiii » Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:16 am

Firstly, and MOST importantly... THANK YOU sozzle, for not yelling at me. All too often someone will find instant fault at, you name it. Too little info. Too much info. The wrong info. Why do you not understand everything there is to know about DNS? Why do you exist.

I am purposely being funny, at least to me, which can get one in trouble when humor is told badly or flies over the head of, everyone.

So am making a big deal about saying thank you for not instantly jumping down my throat for, existing (more humor which some will not find funny, a waste of time, etc etc).

I see a second reply which might drill down more specifically to the question and quandary. So let me explore that. But I had to reply and say, thank you. Been doing this for years. Have had my share of not understanding stuff, understanding a LOT more stuff.... like... I just got yelled at by a developer who told me to learn more about a subject. Soooo.....

..... grace in responding is an attribute. To which you get a gold star. As do others. And some might do well to take a beat and, well... at least recognize when someone is not asking for others to solve their issues, at least not without having done some requisite work beforehand.

So you offer to sit down for a cup 'o Joe. I will counter with offering a cold brewsky, like a Piraat ale. Super smooth. Kinda expensive but who cares. Am just saying, thankx, for not yelling at me to lead things off.

Let me press on to the next reply. It might shed some light. And if I haven't been clear, thankx, for being cordial in your reply. I seriously was bracing for getting yelled at first.

And, I will make a point of posting the web site(s) once I get this last challenge, solved.


sozzled wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:13 pm
Perhaps someone may have a better insight about this situation—it's not a situation that I've encountered or tried to engineer myself, BTW—but I'm clueless to provide you with good advice at the moment. Even after spending a few minutes reading the fairly detailed explanation you gave (thank you :)) I don't fully appreciate all the implications of how *redirection* plays a role here.

My guess is that it could take a while (half an hour or so) explaining your problem to someone else in real-time via teleconference. I'm happy to sit down with you over a cup of coffee and talk this over with you, if that would help. At least it would help me to understand what you want and advise you on how best to outline your objectives even if I can't necessarily prescribe a solution. Would that help you?

I'm also not sure how your problem relates to J! 3.x security. I don't think the outline of your situation necessarily relates to this being a security problem. It sounds more like a general question about how best to interlink some old web content you've salvaged with your new J! website.

UPDATE: I see that this topic has been relocated to the "general questions" forum. 8)

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Re: Making 'calls' to files/folders outside the document root help please

Post by sozzled » Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:49 am

I sent an offer via PM to discuss this offline with the OP.
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Re: Making 'calls' to files/folders outside the document root help please

Post by drh3rdiii » Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:17 am

Thank you. Thank you for taking the time to lay out detailed logic. I appreciate this way more than I can express.

So my response is not at all intended to be snarky. But it does present…. I did all that. I created a sub folder in CP which builds the DNS tables on the site (GoDaddy). It is under the root folder for the domain. And I got this 403 error.

public_html/xyz.com is the root folder. I created public_html/xyz/wireless as a subfolder, in CP. I get the error.

Soooooo, I went back, removed the subdomain in CP, and re-pointed it back to the original, working folder. As in now I have public_html/xyz and public_html/wireless (the subdomain). It fails again.

Bummer is, this is how it was working for years, until I rebuilt the site and, well, now am chasing my tail. Trying to understand what is causing this. Am seriously at a loss… still. Am sure it is a simple thing. Am just not getting it.

Webdongle wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:36 pm
You need to create a subdomain in your Host's cp
Some Hosting packages allow you to choose a folder if that is the case with your Host then
1. You need your Domain.com folder in the www folder and point the Domain to it in the Host's cp
2. Your subDomain needs to be in the www folder (parallel to the Domain.com folder) and point the subDomain to it in the Host's cp

If the Hosting package creates the subDomain folder then it creates it in a folder under the folder that contains the Domain.com files. This is not ideal and can cause problems.

In both cases the folder that the subDomain is in is considered root for subDomain.Domain.com


e.g.
/www (public_html)
-/Domain folder (reached with www.Domain.com)
-/subDomain folder (reached with subDomain.Domain.com)

/Domain folder (reached with www.Domain.com)
-/subDomain folder (reached with subDomain.Domain.com and www.Domain.com/subDomain)
This is where it gets complicated
Reached with subDomain.Domain.com then -/subDomain folder is considered root
but
Reached with www.Domain.com/subDomain then the /Domain folder is the root

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Re: Making 'calls' to files/folders outside the document root help please

Post by sozzled » Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:36 am

I sent an email (in addition to the PM I sent earlier) offering to discuss this with the OP, offline from the forum via a teleconference.
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Re: Making 'calls' to files/folders outside the document root help please

Post by Webdongle » Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:17 am

Gddy are useless. You could be doing everything correctly but not know it because there might be a server issue.

If you have the subdomain pointed at the correct folder then it should work.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: Making 'calls' to files/folders outside the document root help please

Post by drh3rdiii » Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:29 am

Webdongle wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:17 am
Gddy are useless. You could be doing everything correctly but not know it because there might be a server issue.

If you have the subdomain pointed at the correct folder then it should work.
I know. I do have it pointed at the correct folder... still not working. Getting a 403. Not a good thing to just keep resetting the CPanel settings to the subdomain folder. I am missing something for sure. Shooting in the dark now, when I really need to understand the why of it. Sigh.
Anywayz, thx for the response....

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Re: Making 'calls' to files/folders outside the document root help please

Post by drh3rdiii » Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:32 am

Webdongle wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:17 am
Gddy are useless. You could be doing everything correctly but not know it because there might be a server issue.

If you have the subdomain pointed at the correct folder then it should work.
And note that Godaddy has mostly been ok. Except when they cut tail and changed their email environment. Long story short, THAT was greed plain and simple.

I need to solve this problem, them will find another hosting environment. What they did with email is disgusting.

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Re: Making 'calls' to files/folders outside the document root help please

Post by drh3rdiii » Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:44 am

Webdongle wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:17 am
Gddy are useless. You could be doing everything correctly but not know it because there might be a server issue.

If you have the subdomain pointed at the correct folder then it should work.
I am struggling to reply via PM. A measure of being burned out at the moment. So am posting a public message to you but for sure, I am more than happy for others to see my reply to you because I am much, MUCH appreciated for your response to my query. So if others see it, I am super glad too...

Ok Sir… well, you have absolutely hit some targets. Like offering to help with Joomla, more like the hosting issue. Thank you for that. It is vastly much appreciated.

Having said that, my name is David R Hughes, from Colorado, USA.

But before proceeding… I note Australia, Canberra, Joomla, in your sig. So you know outside Joomla (and in the ''who cares" category, I have been exceedingly wanting to go to Australia. Since I was a kid. Listening on short wave radios. To trucker music. Then I saw Walkabout movie. And it is one of my fav movies. Like, ever. Later, read Songlines by Bruce Chatwin and it added to my focus with Australia. As in, fuggin' awesome this Australia. Then a few million other things, like I have wanted to cycle, as in bicycle, across Australia, for many years. I got to know a fantastic lady from southern Australia, she and her BF ran a B&B on the southern coast. Great lady. Then add… I have developed a friendship with a chiropractor, who has developed RIFE software that I use and develop too… so that is on top of all of this, there’s this association with RIFE software from an Aussie. Then add to that, Aussie rules football which I am a fan of.

In other words, I am a massive fan of Australia. For many other reasons. I seriously want to cycle across Australian. All of this is absolutely irrelevant to this thread. As said, I struggled to reply via PM, so posting here.

Sooooo having said that, at the moment, I am in the midst of some seriously difficult medical stuff for my wife. We are having to meet medical appointments starting in the wee hours tmrw morning. So am having to slow down for a couple of days until I can come back to this again.

Soooo, a lot of preamble to say a big thank you for offering, help. I need to delay for a couple of days, to deal with medical stuff. I am overwhelmed with all that, for her and my dad too… both.

Soooooooo, will come back when the coast is clearer and I can focus. And for grins, here are three sites that I have retooled, Joomla, and the davehughes.oldcolo.com is the one I am having challenges with. It is not Joomla. It is the hosting environment that I know is the challenge. Redirection to wireless.oldcolo.com is what is breaking.

But figured I would send the links so for whatever it is worth, you can see at least what I have been dealing with. The real challenge is oldcolo.com, davehughes.oldcolo.com (both of which point to the same root directory and work fine), and then wireless.oldcolo.com which I am having problems with. This should be easy. And it is almost certainly because I am beyond burned out at the moment, having dealt with the migration of these sites… trying to do way too much. Medical, web sites, domains, etc.

Anywayz, for grins:

davehughes.oldcolo.com (my dad, famous, well known in circles)

cook.oldcolo.com (very close friend, just passed away, awesome journalist who knows, knew, everyone who is anyone internet related)

francisca.org (my wife)

I will check back in a couple-ish days. And hey… I really appreciate, and was not kidding, about how I appreciated you not going off at me for asking tech questions in the Joomla forums. Yes, gushing, but hey... I will gush. For the help.

Usually when I post for help, am much simpler, but people will launch with some snarky stuff that makes it impossible to deal with. I am not kidding when I say I appreciate your first response which was…. way beyond neighbourly. I know I was gushing about it, but seriously, it was super friendly and super welcoming. Not something that one gets usually. I know am making too much out of it, but I’m not. Helpfulness is a thing that is vastly appreciated and in short supply on the internet….

Ok, will pop back in a couple of days. Sooner hopefully.

Again, I am over the top on this, but I really appreciate your response to all this.

Tx, david hughes

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Re: Making 'calls' to files/folders outside the document root help please

Post by brian » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:01 am

There are several things that can cause a 403 error. None of them are due to the DNS. If the subdomain was set up incorrectly then you would be getting a 404 or 500

The most likely causes you should review
1. There is no index.* present in your wireless folder
2. There is an index.* present in your wireless folder but the file permissions are preventing it from being read

More unlikely but still should be checked
1. if there is a .htaccess in the wireless folder - rename it (to disable it) and recheck

Even more unlikely but it is possible (and as I cant see the file structure)
1. if there is a .htaccess in the joomla folder - rename it (to disable it) and recheck the wireless site
2. disable admintools in the joomla site and recheck the wireless site.
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Re: Making 'calls' to files/folders outside the document root help please

Post by sozzled » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:25 am

@drh3rdiii: I understand that you may have problems using the forum's PM system to reply to me. As I also wrote, I sent you an email via this forum; it may have gone into your spam mail instead of the inbox. I'm fairly sure that you can reply to that. In any case, I also located your Skype address and I sent an invite to chat with you that way, too. I understand that where you live, in Colorado, it's very late there now (after 02:00 your local time). I also understand that you have personal circumstances that could delay returning to discuss this topic. We'll see what we see.

I meet a lot of people from all around the world and I welcome the opportunity to chat about all kinds of things. :)

I have a feeling that @brian and @Webdongle may be on the right tract w.r.t. how the subdomain was established.

Have a look when you're ready. Cheers. 8)
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Re: Making 'calls' to files/folders outside the document root help please

Post by drh3rdiii » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:06 pm

All,

Some time to dig in and solve this.... which I finally did. It was a combination of things. Pointing to my understanding of primarily, Akeeba Admin Tools. There were two calls causing the inability to direct to a subfolder off the root. Not one. Fix one, the other came into play. And visa versa. I did not connect the two, both of which were in the .htaccess file. I'd been commenting out the obvious lines, and clearing caches which included in Joomla, in the hosting service, in my several browsers. Finally came down to a global call to disallow all unregistered directories, and files, except... I kept providing exceptions, but a second line in .htaccess overrode everything and, well... not the best explanation, but I sorted it out finally and things reasonably working.

The primary site is for my father, 93, remarkable careers and life. Had to retool everything. Same for other sites that had grown stale.

FWIW, again, the sites are:

davehughes.oldcolo.com (joomla)

intothefire.oldcolo.com (sub joomla linked)

wireless.oldcolo.com (joomla)

cook.oldcolo.com (joomla) (close friend of my pop who recently passed away, a remarkable journalist who knew EVERYONE, I mean EVERYONE... resurrected some of his archives)

There is much to clean up for sure. Vitae pdf has incorrect links that need fixing. And not the least of which is the main page for the first link above. Years ago he wanted that billboard sized image populated with many images, but is time to reduce it to a less insult to the senses wham for logo. And just attention to much detail thru all the sites. Main thing was getting content back and answering.

And..... I am very appreciative to everyone who dialed in almost immediately, to help. Had I not been pulled away, I would have responded to the everyone and likely solved this much faster. I know I over-'splained the not getting yelled at part, but it's true. I found much relief in not getting hammered which oft happens. My pop installed one of the earliest BBS systems in the world, 1978... and as a kid would drop in and saw from the get go how online behaviours evolved from then onward. He cut his teeth on pioneering social networking way before it became a thing. I jsut saw a quote from Dorsey, creator of Twitter, who attributes hearing my pop interviewed a few years ago, for giving him the spark that led to Twitter. Lots of history in all this, as pressed into the first site. So I could not express my gratitude enough to everyone who stepped up to help.

To Brian... yep, definitely *not* never was never will be a DNS issue. I just threw that term in there for lack of imagination when typing.

Webdongle... agree, Gddy can be useless. I am tired of logging in and being presented not with a Control Panel, but an advertisement to buy more tools. Grrr. And their slow burn bait-and-switch email shenanigans recently, really found that reprehensible. Once I get sites calmed down and working, will be poking around for a hosting services and email package bundle. Paying way too much for the moderate use right now, for starters.

sozzled, damn dude... stepped right up without blinking and offered to help. Brilliant. Noted 'beer' in your sig line so that would have been an instant offering back. Distance be damned. And everything your offered up. Brilliant. And appreciated. Yeah, I had to step back to deal with 'other'. Came back anticipating picking up... but having solved it to enough function, will send another much shorter post asking a couple of questions that I am certain will get me yelled at. But I am aware of the policies so am asking for it and hopefully won't get slammed too much.

So... onward. And thank you for stepping up so fast.

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Re: Making 'calls' to files/folders outside the document root help please

Post by drh3rdiii » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:09 pm

sozzled wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:25 am
@drh3rdiii: I understand that you may have problems using the forum's PM system to reply to me. As I also wrote, I sent you an email via this forum; it may have gone into your spam mail instead of the inbox.
Sir, I never could send you a PM response. And never saw a PM or email from you. Argh. Not good form on my part... but they just never came thru.

I don't think I made it to a naughty list in the past but mebbe I did??

Anywayz, I would have replied post haste had your efforts to sub channel comm came thru.

Owe beers. Or now owe.... but would want to just tip a few, with everyone.

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Re: Making 'calls' to files/folders outside the document root help please

Post by drh3rdiii » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:32 pm

Hopefully this won't get me in trouble for asking....

Where would one go to discuss Joomla based hosting services? With email support for a small like under 20 set of email addresses. As in recommendations for....

And, where would one go to chatter with developers, think tankers, etc... on idea, project? A hint... I own giph dottttt com/net/org There are quite popular sites like giphy ..... well, that.

Am I in trouble yet? Hope not.

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Re: Making 'calls' to files/folders outside the document root help please

Post by sozzled » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:39 pm

David, pls look at your Skype and see my invitation to chat with you. :)
Last edited by sozzled on Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making 'calls' to files/folders outside the document root help please

Post by drh3rdiii » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:49 pm

sozzled wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:39 pm
Douglas, pls look at your Skype and see my invitation to chat with you. :)
Let me resurrect Skype. Have not used in... nevermind. Let me dig into it. This may happen quickly, or take a little time.

And that I can't send or receive a PM from you, argh... must have done someone in a previous life, or this one?


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