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Article - Page Builder / Editor

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:01 pm
by aklisiewicz
Looking recommendation for nice article layout.

I'm kinda picky because my needs are ften complex. For the course of lat month I went thorough several tools and so far none of them suit my needs. Some of them were page builders and editors. Here is the list:

- RS PAGE BUILDER
- SP PAGE BUILDER
- JA PAGE BUILDER
- JSN PAGE BUILDER
- JDEV PAGE BUILDER
- NICE PAGE

alsoe checked editors
- ARK
- JCE
- Tiny MCE + BOOTSTRAP Plugins

RS builder woudl be probably closest to my needs, however it has one big downside. Editor works in MODAL WINDOW and on my monitor it looks very small (or rather short) making it almost impossible to work on an article. I like however the fact that everything happens within default Joomla editor and the layout seems to be clean.

I need the extension whic his compatible with J4 allows to deal with CSS GRID (evenrtually Bootstrap is OK) and allows to use typical tools which are available through the Joomla editor (the bottom of the editor screen).

SP PAGE BUILDER SEEM TO BE MOST ADVANCED but has lots of bugs. Support is OK but super slow (I assumy they have to many customers VS support people)

JA PAGE builder seem to be ready for J$ and I like how the template builder is organized and works. This tool however is in development and is still missing basic components (or at least I could not find them). So placing i.e and ADIO or video compnent on the page would be an issue (unless you deal wit the HTML/CSS).

JSN PAGE builder look god as well but has big drawback. You cannot even test the framework without piad templates. The site is missleading (wasted lots of time trying for ind things they said should be there). Support is also very bad. They offer free trial for the templates but out of 3 I downloaded 2 did not work at all showing all kind of garbage.

NICE PAGE - is working nice on the desktop but when you transfer site to the sever all kinds of problems arrise. I could not get a menu to work, and it does not work with J4 (I got errors when trying to install extension). Also the only feature from Joomla you get is pacing a MODULE position. All other default editor features are hidden, which I do not lke at all. I have asked support several questions and posted many tickets and got answered only one (after few days), despite I paid Premium license.

JDEN is the one I have not tested much because the framework interface was giving me hard time displaying pages correctly. I gave up.

Tine MCE + Bootstrap seem to be some option but I was not able to find a demo to test it.

Other editors like ARK, JCE do not seem to have any Bootstrap/CSS GRID related functionality, but perhaps this is something I have not researched enough.

To be honest all tools available so far are not up to the task and they sound more like kinda work-around than real solutions. What I like the least is that (with the exception of RS-BUILDER) they all open outside of Joomla editor and prevent uesr from using all godies inside the editor screen.

----------------
Perhaps we could start a discussion here to figure out which tools are closest to make perfectly laid out articles, templates and pages.

I would appreciate your input.

Re: Article - Page Builder / Editor

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:13 pm
by sozzled
I don't think I can help (except to add my two cents' worth about using JCE Editor).

I see many of these "page builder" discussions and, to be honest, I have no idea what they do. So, it may help the discussion if someone or some people could help us understand what is all the hype about "page builders"?

None of the books in my library recommend "page builders" to create profitable websites in Joomla! In fact, I have nothing in my library that recommends any specific template. Basically, the books I own (and I own several) say "there are millions of templates available that you can choose".

I use a few different templates in my work. I create content with Joomla categories, articles and menus. I don't know what benefits "page builders" offer that are superior to using one or another template, Joomla categories/articles and menus. If someone could explain how these "page builders" work (are they somehow different to templates) then I may understand more about these kinds of discussions.

Re: Article - Page Builder / Editor

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:22 pm
by Per Yngve Berg
Make a editorcontent.css file populated with the Bootstrap classes. It will show in the css drop-down in the JCE Editor.

Re: Article - Page Builder / Editor

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:38 am
by aklisiewicz
I was kinda thinking about this but not sure how this would work for my editors who know nothing about HTML/CSS

What you think about Article Templater ? I haven't tested this one yet

I need responsive articles so not sure which would be the best way to go. I do not need muich fancy stuuuf but need nice layouts. The problem is that it needs to show up right on multiple devices and so far many tools keep failing. Some of them work on this part but fail on another. It is so hard to find something that really works 100%.

Re: Article - Page Builder / Editor

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:41 am
by aklisiewicz
sozzled wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:13 pm
I don't think I can help (except to add my two cents' worth about using JCE Editor).

I see many of these "page builder" discussions and, to be honest, I have no idea what they do. So, it may help the discussion if someone or some people could help us understand what is all the hype about "page builders"?

None of the books in my library recommend "page builders" to create profitable websites in Joomla! In fact, I have nothing in my library that recommends any specific template. Basically, the books I own (and I own several) say "there are millions of templates available that you can choose".

I use a few different templates in my work. I create content with Joomla categories, articles and menus. I don't know what benefits "page builders" offer that are superior to using one or another template, Joomla categories/articles and menus. If someone could explain how these "page builders" work (are they somehow different to templates) then I may understand more about these kinds of discussions.
for the most part it is about responsive design
I tried some articvles in plain Joomla editor and whaile they display OK, they are so old fashioned...
When you start adding Elements (ie. video, audio, bulleted lists etc it gets complicated

Re: Article - Page Builder / Editor

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:55 am
by aklisiewicz
Per Yngve Berg wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:22 pm
Make a editorcontent.css file populated with the Bootstrap classes. It will show in the css drop-down in the JCE Editor.
any more details about this solution ?
possibly video

Re: Article - Page Builder / Editor

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:27 am
by sozzled
Thanks, @aklisiewicz. I think there are several frameworks that provide good responsive design without the need for these "page builder" things. If you think they're a good thing then that's OK. I have no need for them.

Re: Article - Page Builder / Editor

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:20 am
by aklisiewicz
what solutions
can you elaborate ?

Re: Article - Page Builder / Editor

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:59 am
by aklisiewicz
nay videos or tutorials on this ?

Re: Article - Page Builder / Editor

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:37 am
by Webdongle
Custom CSS File - Use a custom CSS file specified in the Custom CSS File field
https://www.joomlacontenteditor.net/sup ... figuration

Re: Article - Page Builder / Editor

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:43 pm
by Per Yngve Berg
Here is the file I use for Bootstrap 2:

Code: Select all

.row-fluid {}
.span1 {}
.span2 {}
.span3 {}
.span4 {}
.span5 {}
.span6 {}
.span7 {}
.span8 {}
.span9 {}
.span10 {}
.span11 {}
.span12 {}
.text-left {}
.text-center {}
.text-right {}
img-rounded {}
.img-circle {}
.img-polaroid {}
.pull-left {}
.pull-right {}

Re: Article - Page Builder / Editor

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:04 am
by sozzled
Basically, my take-out from reading @Per and @Webdongle, is that these "page builder" things are bloatware. In other words, anything that people can do with a stock-standard, vanilla-flavoured template (e.g Protostar) that has all that responsive design built-in BTW, plus a bit of CSS know-how (perhaps, but it's not obligatory) is just as good, or maybe better, that spending all that time (and money) on a "page builder" thingamajig.

I asked if someone could explain to me how these "page builder" whatchamacallits were, in any way, superior to using a good template design with standard J! core components. Because no-one has addressed that question with a convincing argument, I conclude that "page builders" are a glorified nothing-to-see-here.

Re: Article - Page Builder / Editor

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:34 am
by toivo
Page builders have their definite place in the web industry. They suit environments where you have a number of author editors who require a degree of freedom but do not need or want to know much about HTML and CSS. That way a company can achieve a professional look and feel of their website with a relatively small investment.

Similar results can be achieved when a designer/webmaster selects a responsive framework, creates a few template overrides and defines the editor profiles of the team for example in JCE, making a predefined set of Bootstrap CSS classes easily accessible, as recommended by @Per Yngve Berg.

In both scenarios the usual bits of training, monitoring, workflow and Quality Control (QC) will guarantee the results.

"Horses for courses" - everything depends on the prior experience, the actual requirements and also on medium term plans. Both tools and teams tend to be overhauled every two to three years in any case.

The page builder extensions I checked a couple of years ago stored data in a proprietary format before generating the HTML and CSS. One page builder stored their pseudo code in the cloud, from where the plugin retrieved it for rendering each page.

If you think you may need to migrate the internal code generated by page builders to another page builder or all the way to HTML and CSS at some stage, you will need to develop a conversion script. Alternatively, the web pages need to be stripped to plain text and images before complete restyling, similar to what we usually do before web pages originating in Microsoft Word can be published.

Re: Article - Page Builder / Editor

Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:59 am
by petern
sozzled wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:04 am
Basically, my take-out from reading @Per and @Webdongle, is that these "page builder" things are bloatware. In other words, anything that people can do with a stock-standard, vanilla-flavoured template (e.g Protostar) that has all that responsive design built-in BTW, plus a bit of CSS know-how (perhaps, but it's not obligatory) is just as good, or maybe better, that spending all that time (and money) on a "page builder" thingamajig.

I asked if someone could explain to me how these "page builder" whatchamacallits were, in any way, superior to using a good template design with standard J! core components. Because no-one has addressed that question with a convincing argument, I conclude that "page builders" are a glorified nothing-to-see-here.
To be honest why did you bother to answer the question at all ?

To say you don't have any experience in page builders in general, or any useful understanding of how they are used in real life, and then based on that contend that "they are bloatware" seems somewhat self absorbed...

...But then if somebody explains to you what PageBuilders are, you will then be able to give your expert opinion on them ? OK.

I sometimes despair at the level of discourse in the Joomla community. Its often all tech, ego, and often little real world experience.

Joomla attracts this sort of thinking though, because in many ways Joomla itself is still that way - even in V4 - it still doesn't have content 'types' (article being the first, but then events, employees, etc etc. It just has a hacked on (by a third party initial) custom field capability added to 'Article Categories'.

Custom fields are great to have as a pretend CCK, but poorly integrated with future extensibility in mind - Think about what it could be - Articles, Categories, Types and Custom fields based on Types with multiple categories in them. Joomla 3 is nearly 10 years old btw and 4 has not changed this structure. Wordpress had it since the early days.

Anyhow, enough of 'experts' and short sightedness and my pet peeves with Joomla - we still love it and use it as a platform.

To the topic at hand,

Most Joomla pagebuilders are immature compared to their wordpress counterparts, or overly complex because Joomla devs make them for themselves (generally being theme developers) or for us Developers, and NOT our clients.

The one I have been hoping would change all that is T4 PageBuilder, but it gets more complex as each beta drops and they still dont show modules except as a grey box (not the actual content) and have no Blog/Article List Blocks that can be customised (as one can in Wordpress tools like Oxygen for instance).

I reviewed most of the tools above in the OPS email and found some that helped some of my clients, but all of them were janky in some way or another.

We need a simple to use page builder for our Customers to use, that is visually accurate, and supports Bootstrap 4 (in my view the best standard template going forward for now).

Then they can happily build their marketing pages, while we use components and modules in templates to do the heavily lifting.

I would love this discussion to continue with people who have experience or needs in this PageBuilder area, maybe we can get some sort of wish list together and go-fund me an editor that will suit..

Re: Article - Page Builder / Editor

Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:37 am
by Webdongle
petern wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:59 am
...

Most Joomla pagebuilders are immature compared to their wordpress counterparts,...
That's because wordpress doesn't have enough configuration options as Joomla. Wordpress is less complex there fore the addons for it need to compensate for wordpress's lack of ingenuity.

Re: Article - Page Builder / Editor

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:48 pm
by petern
Webdongle wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:37 am
petern wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:59 am
...

Most Joomla pagebuilders are immature compared to their wordpress counterparts,...
That's because wordpress doesn't have enough configuration options as Joomla. Wordpress is less complex there fore the addons for it need to compensate for wordpress's lack of ingenuity.
No - its because they are not as well developed. And that is because the market is tiny compared to Wordpress. If you can tell me one pagebuilder for Joomla that is as complete for customers to use as Divi, or Oxygen Builder I'll buy it. I am pretty sure I have tried them all.

There is nothing in Joomla that is as configurable and extendable as Woocomerce for instance.

If you have developed in wordpress you'll find it has a very customisable architecture. A great API, and everything is available everywhere. Its easy to program in. Types, Tags, filters are easily apllied in a call that loads a list of articles in one line of code, from anywhere.

However ein wordpress verything is stored in a couple of tables. Its still a blog. Joomla has mini com_ applications within it which makes it much more robust. Wordpress is not lacking ingenuity though - far from it. Its brilliant at what it does.

Joomla just needs to get its core stuff right and it can then head into Drupal territory, and also take the more complicated wordpress sites back.

Re: Article - Page Builder / Editor

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:48 am
by darb
Custom fields are great to have as a pretend CCK, but poorly integrated with future extensibility in mind - Think about what it could be - Articles, Categories, Types and Custom fields based on Types with multiple categories in them. Joomla 3 is nearly 10 years old btw and 4 has not changed this structure. Wordpress had it since the early days.
If you have developed in wordpress you'll find it has a very customisable architecture. A great API, and everything is available everywhere. Its easy to program in. Types, Tags, filters are easily apllied in a call that loads a list of articles in one line of code, from anywhere.
Joomla just needs to get its core stuff right and it can then head into Drupal territory, and also take the more complicated wordpress sites back.
Agree..

Re: Article - Page Builder / Editor

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:19 am
by AMurray
I personally use SP Page Builder. (joomshaper) with Helix Ultimate (also Joomshaper). Suits my needs very well and have not encountered any bugs or major problems with its use.