How to use the Guest Access level

Moderators: mandville, PhilD, General Support Moderators

snaffle
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:33 pm

How to use the Guest Access level

Postby snaffle » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:55 am

I know this thread is a bit old, but I'd thought I'd add some points to it having spent a couple of hours banging my head against the wall trying to work out why using the Guest Access level as suggested by Webdongle wasn't working.

While it's true that it's all about the Access Levels and not the Groups... as I've discovered, if you still have your "Wholesale" group set with "Registered" as it's parent, then it will indeed pick up the Access Levels that are available to "Registered".

As per the instructions I set my menu item to the "Guest" access level and added the "Registered" group to it, but because of the Groups hierachy, when logged in as a Wholesale user, I was still able to see the menu item.

The solution was to move the Wholesale group up a level so that it's parent was actually set to "Public" in groups.

This of course then meant that Wholesale members didn't actually have permission to log in. But the solution is to go to Global Config -> Permissions and change "Site Login" to Allowed for the Wholesale group.

I was then able to log in as Wholesale, not see the Retail menu items, and see only the one's specifically set for Wholesale users.

Hope that helps someone.
Last edited by toivo on Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: mod note: split from another topic

User avatar
Webdongle
Joomla! Master
Joomla! Master
Posts: 33740
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:58 pm

Re: Hide menu links from custom Group/access level

Postby Webdongle » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:48 am

snaffle wrote:...
While it's true that it's all about the Access Levels and not the Groups......
Wrong ... it's about both


snaffle wrote:... if you still have your "Wholesale" group set with "Registered" as it's parent, then it will indeed pick up the Access Levels that are available to "Registered"....
No it will Not ... view/access levels are not hierarchical



snaffle wrote:...
As per the instructions I set my menu item to the "Guest" access level and added the "Registered" group to it, but because of the Groups hierachy, when logged in as a Wholesale user, I was still able to see the menu item.....
What members of a user group can see has nothing to do with it's Parent. When a menu item is set to a specific view level the only users that can see it are users in user groups that have been selected in that view/access level.

snaffle
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:33 pm

Re: Hide menu links from custom Group/access level

Postby snaffle » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:01 am

Well ok, if you say so, but that wasn't my experience today...

What members of a user group can see has nothing to do with it's Parent. When a menu item is set to a specific view level the only users that can see it are users in user groups that have been selected in that view/access level.


I added the Registered Group to the Guest access level but did not add, in my case, the "Institution" group to that access level.

Logged in as a member of that group, and only that group, but could still see the menu item.

Once I moved the Institution group up a level so that Public was it's parent and not Registered, then the menu item disappeared.

No it will Not ... view/access levels are not hierarchical


I didn't say they were. I suggested, that in my case today, the Groups, which are hierarchical, inherited the access levels of their parent.

User avatar
Webdongle
Joomla! Master
Joomla! Master
Posts: 33740
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:58 pm

Re: Hide menu links from custom Group/access level

Postby Webdongle » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:34 am

snaffle wrote:Well ok, if you say so, ...
Yes I say so


snaffle wrote:...
What members of a user group can see has nothing to do with it's Parent. When a menu item is set to a specific view level the only users that can see it are users in user groups that have been selected in that view/access level.


I added the Registered Group to the Guest access level but did not add, in my case, the "Institution" group to that access level.

Logged in as a member of that group, and only that group, but could still see the menu item.

Once I moved the Institution group up a level so that Public was it's parent and not Registered, then the menu item disappeared.....
Either you have edited so much you got confused or you have a 3rd party extension that is causing the issue. https://docs.joomla.org/J3.x:Access_Con ... _and_Doing


snaffle wrote:...

No it will Not ... view/access levels are not hierarchical


I didn't say they were. I suggested, that in my case today, the Groups, which are hierarchical, inherited the access levels of their parent.
Groups inherit Permissions not the view/access of the Parents ... Permissions are hierarchical view/access levels are not hierarchical

Each object in the front end is assigned an Access Level. If the level is Public, then anyone may access that object. Otherwise, only members of groups assigned to that access level may access that object.
https://docs.joomla.org/J3.x:Access_Con ... ess_Levels That means if a user group is not selected in a view/access level then members of that group will not see anything set at that level.

If you still believe view access levels are being inherited then please start a tracker https://issues.joomla.org/ . We can then test according to your test method

snaffle
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:33 pm

Re: Hide menu links from custom Group/access level

Postby snaffle » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:30 am

Thanks for those links. Sorry, I stand corrected.

I've checked my test conditions a couple of times now though so I'm not confused but suspect it might be the 3rd party menu module I'm using.

The solution I've come up with is working for me, but I'll try testing it on a fresh Joomla install and if I can reproduce the issue I'll start a tracker. Otherwise I'll contact the module developers and let them know.

Thanks for your help.

User avatar
Webdongle
Joomla! Master
Joomla! Master
Posts: 33740
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:58 pm

Re: Hide menu links from custom Group/access level

Postby Webdongle » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:59 am

The 3rd party menu module may not be honouring the the levels. But a common mistake is that when (in the user edit screen) a user is added to a new group) they are still left in Registered). This means that when that user is logged in then they see what Registered see as well as the new group. This leads to the site admin thinking something is wrong with the ACL. Several adjustments are made (including altering Parents) before rechecking ... altering the user groups of the user alters what they can see but the site admin puts it down to another reason.

I have helped test the ACL (view levels and Permissions) and what you describe is indicative that you don not understand the ACL fully. Also the way you describe things shows a non methodical approach that leads to confusion. No doubt you believe you are being methodical but from my experience you are not. That is not a 'dig' at you ... just the way that I see it based on my experience with the ACL and seeing the confusion (about it) in the posts on the forum.

snaffle
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:33 pm

Re: Hide menu links from custom Group/access level

Postby snaffle » Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:07 pm

But a common mistake is that when (in the user edit screen) a user is added to a new group) they are still left in Registered)


I've already said that's not the case... twice actually.

Also the way you describe things shows a non methodical approach that leads to confusion. No doubt you believe you are being methodical but from my experience you are not. That is not a 'dig' at you


Actually it is a dig and to make such sweeping statements about someone you know nothing about shows a special level of rudeness.

Way to go at making a new user feel welcome to the forums.

User avatar
Webdongle
Joomla! Master
Joomla! Master
Posts: 33740
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:58 pm

Re: Hide menu links from custom Group/access level

Postby Webdongle » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:41 pm

snaffle wrote:...
Actually it is a dig and to make such sweeping statements about someone you know nothing about shows a special level of rudeness....
It is not a sweeping statement about someone I don't know ... it's a statement based how you have described what you have done. It took me quite a while to understand the ACL fully and I had one on one tuition from a developer. I recognise the mistakes because I have made the same ones in the past. If you think it's rude for someone (who understands a subject) tries to help you by explaining where your mistakes could be ... then how are going to learn ?

Your OP is totally incorrect and shows you don't understand the ACL as well as you think you do. I have tried various permutations of user groups and view/access levels but as yet have been unable to change (by changing the user group Parent) what a user group sees. If indeed there is a bug in Joomla that (by changing the user group Parent) changes what a user group can see ... then please post the method to replicate it on https://issues.joomla.org/ . Myself and other testers can then test and verify a bug for the devs to fix.

If you are unable to replicate it then one of several factors may be the cause e.g.
  1. Human error on your part
  2. Another super user altered some settings
  3. A 3rd party extension overriding Joomla core
  4. Your site could have been hacked

A user groups Parent has no affect on what that user group can see. User groups only see menu items etc. that are set to a view/access level that has that user group selected in it.

User avatar
sozzled
Joomla! Virtuoso
Joomla! Virtuoso
Posts: 3627
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:30 am
Location: Canberra, Australia
Contact:

How to use the Guest Access level?

Postby sozzled » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:59 pm

I've come into this topic late because I spent more than a quarter of an hour banging my head trying to understand the problem that was described in the original post. I still don't understand it properly.

What's happened in that time is a bit of argy-bargy going on—a "he said, she said" kind of thing—that seems to be a bit off-topic.

In a stock standard Joomla website, the guest group operates independently of the registered group. If one places the guest group within the registered ACL group (or vice versa) then the permissions will operate differently because the inheritance is different. That's just how it is, normally, and that's just a statement of fact.

Messing around with ACL groups—unless one consciously knows what one is doing—can be a recipe for disaster. I prefer to leave the Guest group untouched (as a child of the Public group) and, if I want to allow or deny access to certain content, I work within the Registered group.

If there's a reason to allow access to more than one group then that should be fairly straighforward. If there's a need to restrict access to one group but not to another then that's also straightforward. Sometimes it's necessary to create more than one menu item (e.g. a menu item that appears if a person has logged in but not appear if a person has not logged in) such as a "logout" menu item; it would be pointless having a "logout" menu item if the person viewing the site had not logged in (likewise it would be pointless having a "login" menu item if the person viewing the site has logged in).

I'm sorry if I've strayed off-topic but, unless someone can summarise the issue(s) that need to be addressed (and do that succinctly), I don't get the point of this discussion.
https://www.kuneze.com/blog
Former member of Kunena project team
If you think I’m wrong then say “I think you're wrong.” If you say “You’re wrong!”, how do you know?

snaffle
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:33 pm

Re: How to use the Guest Access level

Postby snaffle » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:08 pm

Sheesh, the post had already been resolved.

I had acknowledged that I was wrong and had even thanked Webdongle for their help.

But they decided to double down and have a crack at my general testing methods, which to be frank were abbreviated for the sake of the forum post - it was just completely unnecessary given the misunderstanding of the ACL had already been acknowledged.

Anyway, life's too short for this kind of rubbish - enjoy your day :)

User avatar
Webdongle
Joomla! Master
Joomla! Master
Posts: 33740
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:58 pm

Re: How to use the Guest Access level

Postby Webdongle » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:22 pm

snaffle wrote:....
But they decided to double down and have a crack at my general testing methods, which to be frank were abbreviated for the sake of the forum post - it was just completely unnecessary given the misunderstanding of the ACL had already been acknowledged....
Not at all attacking you. I am interested because (now you have read those links) if the problem still occurs it could be a bug that you have came across or a 3rd party extension. If a bug then I am interested in it being reported(with testing method) so that it can be fixed ... if a a problematic 3rd party extension (that adversely alters the way the ACL operates) then it should be reported as a security issue.

User avatar
sozzled
Joomla! Virtuoso
Joomla! Virtuoso
Posts: 3627
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:30 am
Location: Canberra, Australia
Contact:

Re: How to use the Guest Access level

Postby sozzled » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:23 pm

@snaffle Oh ... I see. Sorry. Thanks for the explanation. :-[
https://www.kuneze.com/blog
Former member of Kunena project team
If you think I’m wrong then say “I think you're wrong.” If you say “You’re wrong!”, how do you know?

snaffle
Joomla! Apprentice
Joomla! Apprentice
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:33 pm

Re: How to use the Guest Access level

Postby snaffle » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:36 pm

Fine, but in the same post where I thanked you for your help I had already said I would test it on a fresh Joomla install and lodge a tracker if I could reproduce the problem or follow up on the 3rd party module.

I will still go ahead and do that.

User avatar
Webdongle
Joomla! Master
Joomla! Master
Posts: 33740
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:58 pm

Re: How to use the Guest Access level

Postby Webdongle » Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:58 pm

I was just trying to expand on all possibilities ... bearing in mind that there are newbies that may also read this thread.

ash_plaban
Joomla! Fledgling
Joomla! Fledgling
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:05 am

Re: How to use the Guest Access level

Postby ash_plaban » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:08 am

Thank you for helping me with such instructions. This post is really helpful to all.


Return to “Access Control List (ACL) in Joomla! 3.x”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests