About the design of the administration? Topic is solved

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:42 am

Hackwar wrote:You are expecting people to stop their paid work, work for free for Joomla
If there is no money to pay then they are doing it. One of the problems is that things on the internet are getting more complex.


Hackwar wrote:No one is stopping you from contributing. The code from Joomla is very well structured and no big surprises are hidden.
So access to the new admin template is no longer limited?
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by toivo » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:28 am

FYI: inspired by this discussion and the forthcoming Joomla 4, I submitted my first J4 Beta Dev test results to https://issues.joomla.org and intend to continue this activity while whacking spammers 8)
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Hackwar » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:04 pm

Webdongle wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:42 am
Hackwar wrote:No one is stopping you from contributing. The code from Joomla is very well structured and no big surprises are hidden.
So access to the new admin template is no longer limited?
It has been public since February or March last year. It has also been merged into the main project in August last year. To restate that: the admin template is considered done since August 2019, after which people screamed for yet another new template and the initiative by Kawshar was started. Which has also been public since the project was setup at the beginning of September.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:44 pm

To @Hackwar
Again: You are expecting people to stop their paid work, work for free for Joomla
For web developer and users Joomla is a tool for their business and, for me, it’s also more than a tool, it’s a great community that is incomparable from the other CMS out there.
People can give what they can, and here they do, on this very post with 362 replies that present great ideas and even alternatives to the actual design and more than 355,496 views.


browse all channels that there are and then directly implement whatever you throw at them.
If you categorized, as I said, the “Joomla! Ideas Forum” or the “Joomla! Development” (Maybe they should be together anyway) forum, people can choose easily what are their area of interest or expertise and participate.
Also, if its possible to implement, a system of vote attach to each post by both the people working on Joomla as coder and the community to make each ideas/post can take more weight with time and finally became a reality.

A system like that will really help to make Joomla a real “Community Driven CMS”

A new channel like that should be promote and explain by Joomla to bring the people that want to participate in.

I didn’t choose the “Joomla! Development” — “User eXperience (UX)” (and maybe I should have) because I want to reach the most people possible as I find the topic so important for Joomla.


You say that a lot of people contribute here and produce great stuff for Joomla. Then where are they? Ask Kawshar and he will tell you how much support he got from the community for his template. Hint: It was 0. Zero. People are quick to complain about stuff and they praised his stuff and bashed the Joomla stuff on Facebook like crazy, but not a single person came forward from those who wrote there and helped out with his backend template.
It wasn’t zero, I take my time to test his template locally and present visual fixes and suggestions to Kawshar (as I’m not a great coder) and also few others people try it and bring their wise input, but because this is not an “Official” channels everything finally dilute to nothing.

Again keep Github for the code developers and build and advertise a real channel for the rest of the community that can bring, categorized and promote great ideas and input to the project.


Most of your proposals are just CSS edits. Why don't you edit the accompanying SCSS files and create a pull request for that?
First, I’m not a clean coder, I can tweak almost everything but not in a pro way. All my work will have to be review by a pro — Double the time to do the work, this is not efficient.

Anyway, this is how UI-UX development work;
1- Ideas, ergonomics and visuals are refined by people that use the software (the community) and web designer and pro in UI-UX — Coders, here to, should bring suggestions to keep everything in reality.
2- Visual propositions are presented
3- Everybody input on it
4- Final design (photoshop) is made
5- Coder start their job

To do my design presentations here, I work the css of the template on my local server and photoshop section that demand deeper code change, How can I do that on Github ?

Second, I still don’t really understand how Github work even if I post some suggestions in it.

For a good finish, I see that some details, that I talk about here and on Github that was implemented in the latest release.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Hackwar » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:24 pm

Chacapamac wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:44 pm
browse all channels that there are and then directly implement whatever you throw at them.
If you categorized, as I said, the “Joomla! Ideas Forum” or the “Joomla! Development” (Maybe they should be together anyway) forum, people can choose easily what are their area of interest or expertise and participate.
Also, if its possible to implement, a system of vote attach to each post by both the people working on Joomla as coder and the community to make each ideas/post can take more weight with time and finally became a reality.
We had that. https://ideas.joomla.org It was swamped with people asking for a Facebook clone or a webshop included by default in Joomla. People expected magic fairies to come along and create gigantic features, which are usefull to maybe 1% of Joomla websites out there, for the next minor release. And each and everyone expected a feature to work incompatible to the others. Unfortunately, public feature request forums open for non-technical people AND people unwilling or unable to actually do the work, don't work.
Chacapamac wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:44 pm
Again keep Github for the code developers and build and advertise a real channel for the rest of the community that can bring, categorized and promote great ideas and input to the project.
Please have a look at Github. Besides file storage, versioning and a wiki, it contains 2 simplified forums to handle feature requests, changes and bug reports. Github isn't for the coders. It is for everyone and I'm successfully managing several of my non-techie clients with it. It is THE channel for what you are asking for and that wont change. You are asking hundreds of developers to change their habits because you refuse to change yours...
Chacapamac wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:44 pm
Anyway, this is how UI-UX development work;
1- Ideas, ergonomics and visuals are refined by people that use the software (the community) and web designer and pro in UI-UX — Coders, here to, should bring suggestions to keep everything in reality.
2- Visual propositions are presented
3- Everybody input on it
4- Final design (photoshop) is made
5- Coder start their job <---
All those steps before #5 are of little use if you have no one to do step #5. But lets start at the beginning:

About #1: Kawshar made a drastically different design proposal, mainly differing in the menu structure. I looked at that and saw tons of issues, but everybody else praised it like it was the next coming of Christ. So Kawshar started implementing it and ran into heavy issues. Lo and behold, his solution right now is the menu structure that we have in Joomla 4 right now. All the input that I could see here in the forum and on facebook was completely useless in that whole area.

About #2: Who should do that? Are you aware how few people are willing to create a design, let alone invest the weeks and months of planning it all through to the end? A backend template is not a frontend template. It is several dimensions more complex. In the years that 4.0 is being developed, we had 3 groups of people willing to work on the backend template and they all came forward with years between them.

About #3: I already wrote about how usefull the input by non-tech, non-accessibility, non-developers is. I really don't want to offend anyone, but you can't simply start on a green field and create whatever template you want. It needs to be accessible, it needs to work on all devices, it needs to be useable and (greatly important) it needs to be backwards compatible to all those existing extensions out there. Even if we are allowed to break backwards compatibility with Joomla 4, you can't simply throw all components under the bus and let them develop completely new backends. I know VERY few people who have all this in mind when judging an element for a template or a template itself. 98% of people out there see fancy colors and go hyper-fan-girl.

About #4: Photoshop is pretty much useless here. Photoshop does not show how a feature should work, how it behaves. The screens for the current template were very different from what right now is the end result. You need the designer(s) and developers to work closely together and to solve new problems that come up during implementation. The job of a designer is not done when the coding starts. Actually the opposite. Every feature of the current backend template took hours to discuss and several iterations before it worked the way it does now.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by sozzled » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:50 pm

Dear members of the Joomla! community:

I have stayed clear of this discussion, primarily because I am completely useless when it comes to advising people about how to design and construct something as massive as Joomla! 4 and, secondarily, because I have not even tried to use J! 4 alpha.

The subject of this discussion topic is supposed to be about "the design of the [J! 4] administration". That could mean discussing the visuals as well as discussing the UI and the workflows. At least, that's what I infer from the discussion topic subject.

However, in the far-ranging, free-for-all discussion, many of the contributions to this discussion have nothing to do with the visuals, UI or workflows in J! 4. Instead, many of the "contributions" have been arguments about who's doing what, who should be doing what, who should be taking advice from whom and who's not listening.

This discussion is, in my mind, a complete turn-off for people who know nothing about J! 4 or, for that matter, about how J! 4 might operate if/when the project reaches the stage where a product is available for us poor saps who just want to build a website.

I completely agree with those people who have been at the coal-face in constructing J! 4, that their efforts have been condemned by the armchair experts who offer their [often-contradictory] advice about how they should be doing things. I completely understand the frustrations felt by the people who are actually developing J! 4. I completely agree that the place for constructive assistance is GitHub. This forum discussion, however, has been a disingenuous attempt to wrest management of the J! 4 project from the volunteers who are (or were) involved in building J! 4 and it's become a firefight; a finger-pointing, blame game.

As a consequence of this discussion—and similar discussions about the J! project—I am not sure that I really want Joomla! 4. Let me repeat that: as a direct consequence of this discussion, I am turned-off by the whole J! 4 "thing". I am not here to offer any "advice" or other opinion about J! 4. I am only here to say that I, and other people I talk with, are fed up with the continuing "debate".

(signed)
Michael Russell (a.k.a "sozzled")

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by mbabker » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:56 pm

Hackwar wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:24 pm
Chacapamac wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:44 pm
browse all channels that there are and then directly implement whatever you throw at them.
If you categorized, as I said, the “Joomla! Ideas Forum” or the “Joomla! Development” (Maybe they should be together anyway) forum, people can choose easily what are their area of interest or expertise and participate.
Also, if its possible to implement, a system of vote attach to each post by both the people working on Joomla as coder and the community to make each ideas/post can take more weight with time and finally became a reality.
We had that. https://ideas.joomla.org It was swamped with people asking for a Facebook clone or a webshop included by default in Joomla. People expected magic fairies to come along and create gigantic features, which are usefull to maybe 1% of Joomla websites out there, for the next minor release. And each and everyone expected a feature to work incompatible to the others. Unfortunately, public feature request forums open for non-technical people AND people unwilling or unable to actually do the work, don't work.
Take a look at https://twitter.com/mbabker/status/1064511510007943168 which is a screenshot straight out of the Ideas platform's backend. Basically, people want Akeeba, Fabrik, JCE, JSitemapPro, RSForm!Pro, etc. to stop selling their product and merge it into the freely distributed CMS. I'm sure that would go over well with the people whose livelihoods rely on being able to sell a product to the levels of success they have achieved.
Chacapamac wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:44 pm
Again keep Github for the code developers and build and advertise a real channel for the rest of the community that can bring, categorized and promote great ideas and input to the project.
GitHub is primarily a code hosting solution first, nobody will argue that. But, it contains a vast number of features that supplement code development (i.e. issues which can be used for bug reports, feature requests, or just general "reminder to do this" items; pull requests which are effectively change requests to the code; project management boards for keeping your project organized; a documentation wiki because documentation is good). Insisting that different functionality and conversations belong on different platforms is how you end up with the fractured state of affairs that Joomla has had for years (does this conversation belong in a forum, on a mailing list, or in the real-time Glip chat?). Instead of finding more ways to segregate groups of people into different silos, try offering solutions that make it easier for everyone to collaborate from the same system.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:46 pm

I will bypass all the negative and argumentative stuff here as I see now how @sozzled feel about the whole things. I understand, and feel the same way, I guess, I should have let go before.

Sorry for that, that wasn't my intent, I was just trying to help and obviously this is not the way and the channel.

Ok, I will give a shot to Github, again.

Do Joomla have some documentation, an overview or some Quick Start tutorial how to use Github to help Joomla?

Maybe thats the first thing I can do? I will do it for myself anyway...

==============================================
Kawshar made a drastically different design proposal, mainly differing in the menu structure. I looked at that and saw tons of issues, but everybody else praised it like it was the next coming of Christ. So Kawshar started implementing it and ran into heavy issues. Lo and behold, his solution right now is the menu structure that we have in Joomla 4 right now. All the input that I could see here in the forum and on facebook was completely useless in that whole area.

I knew @Kawshar will comme to difficulties, as you say @Hackwar, an interface is complicated, but @Kawshar template, with issue or not, bring a fresh cool design that do have a WOW effect. His effort should not be put down but praised — I will try to reach him to help...

One thing I know, I give here, simple, easy minimal skin modifications and suggestions for the actual Joomla admin template. These will already improve the overall design. Two of my suggestions (or part of it) was implemented. Joomla is free to use anything here.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by webdevtim » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:16 am

What I am hearing here is that there is a lack of a business model for Joomla. Developers need to eat and have a place to sleep like everyone else. Joomla needs to generate money from somewhere so that developers have the resources to do this kind of work. Working after hours after a long day of coding somewhere else for money must be very challenging, and even though you might have a passion for this work, you are already a bit spent by the time you psych yourself up for another few hours of coding. We need to figure out how to make Joomla.org financially self sustaining.

Having said that here is a screen shot of the new Siteground control panel interface. Notice the colored icons and the colored logo. I know the retina look is popular right now, but I find it easier to visually locate something on the screen when there is color information to help me hone in on that one item in a hundred on the screen. Just a suggestion, yes I should go to GitHub with this info, but I have to go buy food to eat right now, so this will have to suffice.
Image

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by H13 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:50 pm

webdevtim wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:16 am
Joomla needs to generate money from somewhere so that developers have the resources to do this kind of work.
Joomla! generates money and did well in past, you can see the budget here (including where the money was used):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1928935938
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =197924245
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by webdevtim » Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:52 pm

Thanks, H13, this is very good to know. As Nicholas K. Dionysopoulos has said to me in emails, "Joomla is a great CMS." And I will quote another source that had this to say about Joomla:
Joomla! is a Content Management System (CMS) first and foremost, and a very sophisticated one at that. Joomla! offers so much flexibility and so many extensions, it can be easy to overlook basic core features that exist to help us manage and display our content.

Having an understanding of what Joomla can do on it's own can go a very long way, it's here to make life easier for us. Using these features to our advantage, instead of working against them, helps us to work faster and avoid making things more difficult than they need to be. With a bit of understanding, we can take full control of the power and tools that Joomla offers.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:08 am

@H13
One says 'without JWC'. Any idea what that means?
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by toivo » Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:56 am

JWC probably means "Joomla World Conference" that was going to be in London but was cancelled because of the uncertainty caused by Brexit.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by edwin007 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:46 pm

I don't think we are being insensitive or simply targetting the people behind the develeopment of Joomla. We really do appreciate the hard work, the time and many sacrifices they make towards the project. Joomla is a great CMS because of all those people who give of their free time, their skills and their expertise. As everyone knows, its hard trying to make a living, and still having to give some of yourself to Joomla, after a long, hard and exhausting day at work. I really salute each and every one of them.
Joomla lovers and Joomla users, I think, are just wanting to see Joomla 4 take the world by storm (as I dream it would). Therefore they should be able to discuss and provide constructive criticism - helpful suggestions and questions. They should not attack the team trying so hard to make it all happen. The team should not view every suggestion or question as an attack on their skills, expertise, character, commitment and hard work. For instance, I installed Joomla 4 for a client so he could tell me what he thinks. He wanted to know where all the Extensions menu had gone. It wasn't to be found on the left menu. I had to go searching before I could answer my client. He suggested there be an Extensions menu, as before. He couldn't understand how a module could be regarded as content. "Modules are extensions. Is the Login module a content item?"
I could not get upset with my client. I had to understand that the CMS should be very easy to use for everyone. What he asked and what he suggested, everyone should be able to ask and suggest to the team behind Joomla 4.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by H13 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:23 pm

edwin007 wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:46 pm
What he asked and what he suggested, everyone should be able to ask and suggest to the team behind Joomla 4.
The problem is, it is too late now. Some solution was selected and done and it is not possible to change it everytime new suggestion comes.

I myself did surveys where 36 people commented on the position of the menu. Yes, it is a very small group of respondents but:

23 people were for the top menu
6 people were for the left menu
7 didn't know or they didn't care

Maybe if the core team did such survey (but asking more people) before the decision, maybe today there will be still top menu.

It can also mean that the left menu will not be accepted by existing users, nor will it be a reason for new users to switch to Joomla!

But the decision has been made and now it is important that Joomla! 4 will be finished. So for now I don't think it is time to accept suggestions for Joomla! 4 or ask core developer why this feature was made or selected, etc. ... maybe for Joomla! 5. Now, it is really too late. :-(
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:42 pm

Side menu is absolute crap. When on Home Dashboard ... click anything on there and the menu items disappear then re-appear.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by mbabker » Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:06 pm

H13 wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:23 pm
I myself did surveys where 36 people commented on the position of the menu. Yes, it is a very small group of respondents but:

23 people were for the top menu
6 people were for the left menu
7 didn't know or they didn't care

Maybe if the core team did such survey (but asking more people) before the decision, maybe today there will be still top menu.

It can also mean that the left menu will not be accepted by existing users, nor will it be a reason for new users to switch to Joomla!
If you're picking a CMS based on whether its administration interface uses a top navigation or a sidebar navigation, then really your evaluation criteria is in need of a massive overhaul. Yes, I'm being blunt about it.

All I'm going to say on the top versus side topic (technical implementation matters, quirks, issues, or design aside) is that I find it to be legitimately easier to build usable complex menu structures while using a sidebar based system, whereas a top menu is really only good if you're building a fixed menu structure with a minimal number of items (i.e. the "mega menu" of the `joomla.org` template). If people would build it right, the sidebar menu in the 4.0 admin interface could be much more user friendly than the top menu of versions past (but alas it seems people want to make it harder to discover various core interfaces in 4.0 instead of easier, *shrug*). I think there is a reason that outside the Joomla bubble you see so many CMS' and administrative template designs that use the sidebar design (of the systems I've personally worked with the only places I actively remember a top menu as the primary navigation of the administrative interface being Joomla, Drupal, Magento, and Volusion (SaaS platform)), maybe top menu is what Joomla has come to know over the last 15 years but that doesn't necessarily mean that Joomla has to cling to it until it dies.

That being said, I wouldn't judge top menu versus sidebar based on the existing functional implementation of the latter, just because the implementation is quirky doesn't mean that the concept as a whole is completely FUBAR.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by bruno28 » Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:30 pm

kawshar wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:18 pm
bruno28 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:12 am
kawshar wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:05 pm

I think the language packs are not compatible with Joomla 4 yet. But, it should be under extensions menu then install.
Hello kawshar

I could install French pack but I can't find where to change content language or admin language

Sorry to insist but I want to test this template to be familiar with it


joomla alpha 12 dev.png
Click on the install menu under extensions. Or, go to this URL administrator/index.php?option=com_installer&view=languages
Hello kawshar

I really enjoy your administrator template

Can I use it for my sites ?

When I make a copy of the template, I get a blank page after the copy is done. I tried several times with Cassiopea and Atum templates
Cordialement, Bruno28 :)
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by H13 » Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:47 pm

mbabker wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:06 pm
If you're picking a CMS based on whether its administration interface uses a top navigation or a sidebar navigation, then really your evaluation criteria is in need of a massive overhaul. Yes, I'm being blunt about it.

I understand exactly what you mean and agree, but I have met so many people who have simply made choices according to strange criteria. And one of them was that the menu reminded them of computer programs that they regularly use.

Image

As for me personally, for me as a right-hander, working with top menu is much faster.. But I understand and accept the reasons why the left menu was selected.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by ceford » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:28 am

It would be nice if the atum template could include a jdoc position above the header so that those of us who want to use a top menu could install a suitable menu module without the need for an entirely new template. See my separate post on J4 Administrator Menu Position for a working example.

Could it even be a template option?

Cliff

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:55 am

@ceford +1
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by H13 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:53 pm

ceford wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:28 am
It would be nice if the atum template could include a jdoc position above the header so that those of us who want to use a top menu could install a suitable menu module without the need for an entirely new template. See my separate post on J4 Administrator Menu Position for a working example.

Could it even be a template option?

Cliff
I think, this is the right place to write such feature request:
https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/issues

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by b2z » Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:27 pm

Interesting that there was not such discussions when we were moving to Isis.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:40 pm

Perhaps because the design was better and not hidden at the start.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by brian » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:03 pm

@b2z - there have been discussions every time the ui has changed - elephants have long memories
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by sozzled » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:18 pm

I agree with @brian. I still remember the anguish about the J! 3.0 "UX" on the forum (if people want to revisit this, they can easily find it), in Google Groups (remember them?) and in GitHub. First time the J! project attempted to integrate Bootstrap into both front- and backend. I recall that Kyle couldn't take a trick then (and for a few years afterwards) but the final result is quite usable. 8)
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by mbabker » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:25 pm

ceford wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:28 am
It would be nice if the atum template could include a jdoc position above the header so that those of us who want to use a top menu could install a suitable menu module without the need for an entirely new template. See my separate post on J4 Administrator Menu Position for a working example.

Could it even be a template option?

Cliff
As an end user, this might seem like a simple request. As a platform maintainer, it is a nightmare. If you are offering support for your primary navigation menu being either a top menu or a side menu, then you must continue to build your menu structure to be optimized for the top menu due to the bigger amount of constraints it has over a side menu. Or, you end up writing a lot of code to try and seamlessly switch between the two styles. It's really not a matter of a module position in the template or a design change in the module, there is just a lot more that needs to go into menu management if the platform is going to choose to support both options out-of-the-box, and basically the platform wouldn't be able to easily optimize for the sidebar menu structure as a result.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by darb » Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:03 am

Or, you end up writing a lot of code to try and seamlessly switch between the two styles.
Yes that’s a pity that you have to write a lot of code to have this solution otherwise I think this would have been a perfect flexible solution for the end user making his own choice of having a top menu module or a side module by disabling/enabling one of them.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by H13 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:06 pm

darb wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:03 am
Yes that’s a pity that you have to write a lot of code to have this solution otherwise I think this would have been a perfect flexible solution for the end user making his own choice of having a top menu module or a side module by disabling/enabling one of them.
In fact, this is how the frontend works.

Anyway, we still have something weird there. Two left menus next to each other.

Image
This is something which is not a problem by top menu. It looks like we forgot that we already have one left menu and try to stuff another one to left position - the former top menu.

And of course the problem that in the first left menu, the active item is not marked.
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- Phoca Download - download manager for Joomla!

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by mbabker » Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:56 pm

H13 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:06 pm
darb wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:03 am
Yes that’s a pity that you have to write a lot of code to have this solution otherwise I think this would have been a perfect flexible solution for the end user making his own choice of having a top menu module or a side module by disabling/enabling one of them.
In fact, this is how the frontend works.
It works for the frontend because the frontend menus are designed to be user customized and different templates offer support for different menu structures in different positions (I'll just throw https://developer.joomla.org/ out there as an example of this where you have the site's primary navigation as a top menu and then secondary navigations on the right sidebar, and in the case of a couple documentation sections you have menus dedicated to those on the left sidebar). The admin menu, on the other hand, generally follows a defined structure that (while supported) isn't intended for as much user customization and flexibility, so building an optimized menu structure that would work out-of-the-box for both a top menu and a sidebar puts a much greater maintenance burden on core and the easiest solution is to continue to maintain the out-of-the-box menu for the top menu structure which negates the benefits of introducing a sidebar in the first place; at that point you might as well just ditch the sidebar (which for some reason everyone in the Joomla bubble seems to think is the worst thing ever).
H13 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:06 pm
Anyway, we still have something weird there. Two left menus next to each other.

This is something which is not a problem by top menu. It looks like we forgot that we already have one left menu and try to stuff another one to left position - the former top menu.

And of course the problem that in the first left menu, the active item is not marked.
You still need to support a secondary navigational structure where it's appropriate. This alone doesn't mean that sidebar menus are totally FUBAR and top menu is the only way to go, in fact I would suggest that the fact the template designers did not account for legitimate scenarios where a secondary navigation structure is needed and used (i.e. the com_config sidebar menu or the install from web sidebar menu) means that the template needs further design refinement to set up something for these use cases.

 

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