"Once again": when non news is news

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"Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:42 pm

The Joomla! Official News (in the last article written about what's happening on the J! 4 & J! 3.10 front a couple of months ago) states
Once again the Joomla Project is pleased to announce the availability of the Joomla 4.0 Beta 7 release, and Joomla 3.10 Alpha 5.

We expect this to be the last beta of Joomla 4 and to have a Release Candidate available in March. We will also make a new portal available for translation teams to submit Joomla 4 language packs to coincide with the first Release Candidate.
Yes, once again there's a great fanfare about what's happening but little to show for it. Leaving aside the non-emergence of any new releases for testing—except for those "nightly builds" that haven't been properly peer-reviewed—for two months, the emergence of a RC version is dependent on the availability of language translations.

1. Where is the "new portal" for the translation teams?

The Joomla! Official News article about J! 4 Beta 7 and J! 3.10 Alpha 5 was dated 25 February; this came three weeks after the actual release dates of those versions on 3 February.

We know that the J! 4 and J! 3.10 development teams do not visit this forum and therefore we're left struggling to discover news for ourselves. Certainly, if you're technically-minded, GitHub provides us with some information ... but it makes one wonder what is the purpose of this forum, doesn't it?

From what I've seen at GitHub, the developers aren't using that "forum" either.

2. Where is the place where we can get current information about the state of the Joomla! project?

I used Google to search for the latest information about J!: this was my search query --> https://www.google.com/search?&q=latest ... a!+project
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Re: "Once again": when no news is news

Post by toivo » Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:41 pm

sozzled wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:42 pm
From what I've seen at GitHub, the developers aren't using that "forum" either.
Look at the Joomla! Issue Tracker - CMS and there is plenty of activity by developers like PhilETaylor, joomdonation, chmst, zero-24, dgrammatiko, astridx, alikon, brianteeman, korenevskiy, richar67, infograf768, nikosdion and others.
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:53 pm

That's not what I asked. I know about the activity—such as it is—by people like the ones you've mentioned but that's not what my two questions are about.

If this forum is not the place to discuss the Joomla! project then let's just say so. We know that the people you've mentioned, most with two notable exceptions, do not visit this forum. So why do we have this forum if the people you've mentioned don't use it?

I asked—in the context of "if it looks like a duck and makes noises like a duck"—the Joomla! Official News talks about news and the "news" was about a new portal for translators to provide their submissions to build J! 4.0 RC. This news was dated 25 February.

When we search for news about the Joomla! Project we are directed (among other places) to the Joomla! Official News site.

So, I ask again:

1. Where is the "new portal" for the translation teams?
2. Where is the place where we can get current information about the state of the Joomla! project?
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by ceford » Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:27 pm

sozzled wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:53 pm

So, I ask again:

1. Where is the "new portal" for the translation teams?
2. Where is the place where we can get current information about the state of the Joomla! project?
The News item says the "new portal" will come with the release candidate [in March]. The release candidate date has slipped but I think it is a bit harsh to grumble after just three days. In the meantime you can load the Joomla 3 language packs for most languages for testing Joomla 4 Beta.

The place for "current information" depends on what information you want. A good place to look is the Github discussion: https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/discussions - that is where the developers talk to each other, apart from in the Issues tracker.

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:11 pm

I wasn't grumbling (or complaining). I was asking two simple questions hoping to get simple answers:

1. Where is the "new portal" for the translation teams?
2. Where is the place where we can get current information about the state of the Joomla! project?

This forum has a place to discuss "Joomla! 4 related" issues. Well, the biggest issue (apart from the fact that the Joomla! Official News has had no new news about J! 4 since 25 February this year) is that this forum is clearly not the place where people can discuss J! 4 issues. The implication is that the J! development team has abandoned this forum by not engaging with the great J! community. Perhaps it would be not unreasonable to conclude that this forum is a waste of everyone's time?

I'm not asking for daily communiqués; I'm not asking for regular reports. I am, however, making the observation that, when we read "once again" (and once again there's a been a failure to make any headway), we can be forgiven for being sceptical about the newsworthiness of the Joomla! Official News.

I make the simple point that, once again, there's little help for people who search for the latest news about the Joomla! Project.

GitHub is not a "good place to look" for a summary; it's a place where several hundred technical issues are discussed, debated and argued—often without any resolution. There's too much detail at GitHub for the average person to get a sense of where we are on the roadmap. Perhaps we're closer to our destination; perhaps we're not. I don't know. The project lead should know. If the project lead is as lost as the rest of us are then GitHub is not a "good place" to discover where we are. By the same token, this forum isn't a good place to discover where we are, either. I don't want to search every nook and cranny to get a sense of where we're supposed to be heading and when, or if, we'll get there.

https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/discussions has 756 open "issues". The one issue (opened nearly two weeks ago) that may be most pertinent is https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/discussions/32835 and, guess what ... it's a Catch-22. The question was asked "How far away are we from J! 4 RC1?" The answer was, once again, "As soon as we've resolved all the major problems"; that's paraphrasing things, I know. In my opinion, the main problem is that the developers don't understand the consequences of isolating themselves from the community and not spending half an hour of their day, a couple of times a week, visiting The Joomla! Forum™. Until that problem is addressed it doesn't matter if J! 4 RC1 is released next week, next month or next year.
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by brian » Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:52 pm

You assume that they dont visit the forum based on assumption that they would post. I visit often but rarely post
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:17 pm

I make no assumptions, @brian. The evidence that the J! development team members are willing to engage with the community is by their involvement with this forum. I make no assumptions about your involvement, either, @brian. I'm saying, as a matter of fact, the J! development team members—for the most part—do not use this forum to obtain information.

Whenever I have used GitHub to refer to an issue that's discussed here, on this forum, I've been instructed to "please summarise the issue (once again) here [on GitHub]". These instructions indicate to me that the J! development team members either (a) don't read what's written on this forum, (b) don't believe what may have been written here, on this forum, or (c) can't be bothered to read what's on this forum and want us to have to repeat what we've observed "once again". That's the problem.

Once again, I ask:

1. Where is the "new portal" for the translation teams?
2. Where is the place where we can get current information about the state of the Joomla! project?

I say, as an observation on my part, that GitHub "issues" is not the place we can get a summary about the state of the Joomla! project; I also say, as an observation on my part, that this forum is also not the place to get a summary about the state of the Joomla! project. That's not news; there's nothing new in that. These two places are not where ordinary folk can obtain a "sit-rep".

I'm not trying to elevate "non-news" to the level of something newsworthy, either. What's newsworthy, perhaps, is people's disillusionment about the J! project but that, also, is not the purpose—it should also not be the focus—of this discussion. I'm saying that the Joomla! Official News is not providing us with reliable, timely information and we're left to our own devices to seek out that information wherever we can obtain it.

Do you understand the predicament we're in? :)
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by ceford » Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:27 am

sozzled wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:17 pm
Once again, I ask:

1. Where is the "new portal" for the translation teams?
2. Where is the place where we can get current information about the state of the Joomla! project?
These questions have been answered:

1. The "new portal" will come with the Release Candidate.
2. The place to get current information is Github

To expand on the second question/answer: the current situation is a moving a target involving multiple sub-projects. There are no reporters summarising the situation for you. So what do you want to know?

For example, this url:

https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/labels/PR-4.0-dev

tells you there are 92 open pull requests for Joomla 4 issues, and 6809 closed. The list shows what is going on and if you click on any Release Blocker label you will see there are 14 open and 5 closed. By the time you read this those numbers may have changed. But if that is not what you want to know ...

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:07 am

ceford wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:27 am
These questions have been answered:

1. The "new portal" will come with the Release Candidate.
2. The place to get current information is Github
Who is the author of these answers? There is no single point at GitHub to get "current information". I'm sorry, but these answers don't make the slightest bit of sense and they completely contradict the purpose of (a) the Joomla! Official News, (b) the Joomla! Developer Network Newsletter and why would we want to subscribe to these things, as well as (c) The Joomla Forum™.

In effect, these answers say that (a) J! 4 RC1 will be released before there are any translations available, and (b) you need to get on-board GitHub if you want to know any more. Apart from being an insult to everyone who has used this forum for years, these answers are completely unacceptable.

ceford wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:27 am
So what do you want to know?
I want to know what everyone else wants to know. I want to know where is the official news about the Joomla 4 project.

The official news is not where we would expect to find it by using Google.

Once again—don't you get the feeling that I'm over-using those words to make a dramatic point—this forum doesn't provide us with the answers. We may as well close up shop with this forum right now ... today.

GitHub does not provide us with answers, either. The activity at GitHub strongly suggests that the J! 4 project is uncoordinated, struggling to find a sense of purpose. I'm not saying that: I'm saying that's what the picture looks like.

To prove my point about the disinterest shown by members of the J! 4 development team—I'm not sure there's a team effort here but I'll use that term for the present—why doesn't someone post a new issue at GitHub that says, "Do we still need The Joomla! Forum™?"

I'm trying very hard not to embarrass the J! 4 developers by drawing negative attention to the slipped timetable. The slippage is regrettable, sure, but that's not my point. I'm also not trying to embarrass anyone for anything they've written. I'm just trying to get some timely information so that we can move on, please. :)
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by ceford » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:32 am

I want to know what everyone else wants to know. I want to know where is the official news about the Joomla 4 project.
We all know where the official news is. It seems the problem is that those channels do not report interim progress so we have to make our own assessments. For anyone who wants to do that there is another place to look - the Joomla 4 Milestones: https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/milestone/5

No need to read the issues, just look at the titles to see what the core developers have been doing.

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:50 am

ceford wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:32 am
We all know where the official news is.
Where's that? Please tell us.

When I asked who authored the answers (that contradicted the official story) in my previous post, no-one has given us an answer.

I appreciate the efforts that you have tried to make, @ceford, and @toivo and @brian, but none of you can give us a simple straightforward answer. Let me make the question really simple:

If the Joomla! Official News is not officially the place to find out the latest information about the J! project, then can someone please tell us what is officially the place to easily find out the latest information about the J! project?

I don't want to know when the next release of J! 4 will arrive; my guess is that the next release of J! 4 will be J! 4 Beta 8. I could be right; I could be wrong. It doesn't matter. It's just a guess. I also don't want to know the answer to the question, "Are we there yet?" We know we're not there, yet and so there's no point in asking that question. We're lost (and that's also obvious) but we're not complaining because we're just playing follow-the-leader. The real question on everyone's lips is, "Is the person who's leading the project lost, too?"

That's really all we need to know. A frank, honest admission that the person who's leading the project either knows where he's heading or whether he, too, has lost his way. Then we can all move on.
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:41 pm

A similar question/observation—not by me—was posted on GitHub two months ago: https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/discussions/32276. Worth the read.
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by brian » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:05 pm

As the production department director has been publicly silent for the last year no amount of complaining is going to get them to speak
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:15 pm

Thanks, @brian, but I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not complaining; I'm making an observation. I'll leave it to others to draw their own conclusions from what I'm written.

The production department director—Marco Dings—has been quiet but I'm not laying any blame on him personally or accusing him of complete inactivity.
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by brian » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:29 pm

if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then its a duck
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:39 pm

I infer from your duck metaphor that you're accusing me of complaining. C'est la vie.

By the same token, "Where there's smoke ..."

Even the faintest whiff of smoke is enough to make people nervous. I'm not saying there's a need to call the fire brigade. The general feeling in the community is that "this, too, shall pass". It's not for me to make a judgement on the situation. People all around the world who are looking for an OSS CMS to build websites have already made that judgement about J!: https://trends.google.com/trends/explor ... 1&q=Joomla

That's not a complaint: that's a fact.
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by Webdongle » Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:13 am

Things to appear to be taking longer. Whether it's a lack of testers or things are getting more complex, who knows? But there does seem to be a delay.

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by yellowdog » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:33 am

Hi there,

Personally, I have found trying to find out where Joomla 4 is at over the past months and year quite difficult.
The Roadmap page is out of date: https://developer.joomla.org/roadmap.html#4
The News page https://www.joomla.org/announcements/re ... lpha5.html mentions an RC due March but obviously that didn't happen and hasn't been updated since.
It would be nice to have a bit more transparency.
I'm dying to get my hands on the RC so we can test it and provide feedback.

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:34 pm

I started this discussion over two weeks ago. Two weeks ago I noted
sozzled wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:42 pm
The Joomla! Official News (in the last article written about what's happening on the J! 4 & J! 3.10 front a couple of months ago) states
Once again the Joomla Project is pleased to announce the availability of the Joomla 4.0 Beta 7 release, and Joomla 3.10 Alpha 5.

We expect this to be the last beta of Joomla 4 and to have a Release Candidate available in March. We will also make a new portal available for translation teams to submit Joomla 4 language packs to coincide with the first Release Candidate.
Yes, once again there's a great fanfare about what's happening but little to show for it. Leaving aside the non-emergence of any new releases for testing—except for those "nightly builds" that haven't been properly peer-reviewed—for two months, the emergence of a RC version is dependent on the availability of language translations.
1. Where is the new portal for the translation teams?

I discovered that this new portal for the translators does not exist. See viewtopic.php?f=803&t=985820#p3628636

sozzled wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:42 pm
The Joomla! Official News article about J! 4 Beta 7 and J! 3.10 Alpha 5 was dated 25 February; this came three weeks after the actual release dates of those versions on 3 February.

We know that the J! 4 and J! 3.10 development teams do not visit this forum and therefore we're left struggling to discover news for ourselves. Certainly, if you're technically-minded, GitHub provides us with some information ... but it makes one wonder what is the purpose of this forum, doesn't it?
2. Where we can get current information about the state of the Joomla! project?

The last release for J! 4 was v4.0 Beta 7 on 3 February. That was 2½ months ago. There have been no further complete/packaged versions released since then. There are nightly builds for J! 4.0 Beta 8. People should be aware of the risks of using these interim releases that have only been tested by one or two people. The current situation report is at https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/projects/6 although no timeframes are given for achieving any of its goals.

Joomla! Official News has lost its credibility as the place to find out about the current situation with J! 4 especially when the last announcement is more than 2½ months old. This forum is not particularly useful to obtain the latest information about J! 4. Once again, this lack of news is the news. We can discuss the lack of reliable information, if people want to do that, but it's disappointing that there's not much else to discuss, isn't it?

This also probably explains why people are disengaging from the J! project.
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:21 am

There won't be any new release(s) of J! this weekend with the focus on #jdayusa.
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by Webdongle » Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:48 am

Virtual this year is it?
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:45 pm

The latest news (according to the OSM Board meeting minutes nearly a month ago but only published today) is:
Joomla is closing in on a first release candidate for Joomla 4. Extensive feedback from major extension developers is expected.
According to GitHub, the number of blocking issues that are likely to prevent the first release of J! 4 RC1 has fallen to three. However, this means that there will not be a release of J! 4 RC1 before the beginning of May this year. So there's the latest news.

There has been no further news about the development of J! 3.10. J! 3.10 is a prerequisite for people intending to migrate their J! 3.x websites to J! 4.0. Therefore, in all probability, people can start to test J! 4.0 today but only by building J! 4 websites from scratch (i.e. they won't be able to migrate existing J! 3.x websites until J! 3.10 has been released); there is no timeframe for releasing J! 3.10 (according to the roadmap). Although there are alpha releases of J! 3.10 available today, these versions have not been thoroughly vetted.

Disappointing, perhaps, but I'm only using the latest information available to the general public and, as there has not been any newer public information published—apart from what I have obtained by reading the team reports—that's all I can say.
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by brian » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:34 pm

flogging a dead horse again
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:39 pm

Do you mean that the J! 4 project is dead, Brian, and that no amount of discussion (or "flogging" as it's been characterised)—intended to encourage interest in the project—will energise it? I'm only using this forum to provide people with the latest news about the project ... and I understand things, that is. I haven't characterised the state of the J! 4 project in terms of it being a "dead horse".

If I have written anything incorrect in this discussion (or elsewhere) I am sure that we would all be very grateful if someone would correct it.

On the other hand, perhaps there's no appetite for J! 4 or there's no interest in what's happening in its development? I'm just asking questions. Isn't that the purpose of this forum: to seek a better understanding of things? ???
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by brian » Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:36 pm

> Isn't that the purpose of this forum: to seek a better understanding of things?

perhaps but all you are doing is trolling
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:04 am

brian wrote:
Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:40 pm
Please stop the personal comments. This is about Joomla not individuals
brian wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:44 pm
Lets avoid the personal comments shall we. Most people posting here are active contributors to joomla and have avoided any personal comments
;)
“If you think I’m wrong then say, ‘I think you’re wrong.’ If you say ‘You’re wrong!’, how do you know?” :)

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Grncar
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by Grncar » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:14 am

Hi guys,

I am a member and proud user of Joomla for a decade now. I'm not active in conversations on this forum, but I am here on a daily basis for a same thing as others - looking for some information about Joomla 4.

I would like to say thanks to @sozzled for posting latest information, I have been also looking at the same places he did for any information about the upcoming release of J! 4. And I learned a lot from him on how to dig deeper for info :)

The reason that I posted this is because I think that he is right, and that he is not a troll like @brian says. He is just stating the obvious, that something is wrong in communication. I too believe that people working for J! 4 to happen are not lazy or evil or not interested, but if this is is an open source community project then I feel that I am a part of that community and I think most of us are just thinking the same: Lack of information is just making everyone nervous and losing trust in the project. And we all want to believe in this.

The forum is a place for exchange of information, opinions and this forum may not be the place that J! 4 developers are coming, but official website and news should reflect their work, which is not easy and I think that they have great ideas and that they are working hard.

From my point of view problem is that even though everybody has the best intentions in mind, lack of information and time taking to finish this is making people to look for other solutions. Community is shrinking and hat is not good. Also from my perspective (I might be wrong, sorry this is just my conclusion) there are no enough people working on this, we don't get answers on who is really in charge. We all see that people are working, but everything is behind of an iron curtain.

Even thou I am anxiously waiting for J! 4 It's no problem if it takes a bit more, but just make things a bit more transparent so we can organize around it :)

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Pavel-ww
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by Pavel-ww » Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:05 am

I agree completely. Information about J4 is very poorly organized and is a difficult quest, to find something up to date. It is a big problem for the project as a whole. And this ultimately can lead to the death of the project.

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sozzled
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:01 pm

I read that there will be at least one meeting on 4 May to discuss the current development sitation with J! 4; there may be more than one meeting (the information was a little sketchy). As I understand things, (a) there won't be a new release of J! 4 before this date, and (b) there is some debate about one or two features being removed from the current/latest beta version. There are over 200 PRs to be considered for merging into J! 4.

That's all that I know at the moment.
“If you think I’m wrong then say, ‘I think you’re wrong.’ If you say ‘You’re wrong!’, how do you know?” :)

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sozzled
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Sat May 01, 2021 9:09 pm

According to the minutes of the last OSM Board meeting held on 22 April (published today):
The Production Department is working on scheduling the Release Candidate on Joomla 4.0.
The Production Department has not published minutes of meetings held in April. E expect further announcements after 4 May.
“If you think I’m wrong then say, ‘I think you’re wrong.’ If you say ‘You’re wrong!’, how do you know?” :)


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