"Once again": when non news is news

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by Webdongle » Sat May 01, 2021 9:53 pm

https://www.lollydaskal.com/leadership/ ... dy-nobody/
Here’s the story, titled “Whose Job Is It, Anyway?”

This is a story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it. Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that, because it was Everybody’s job.
Everybody thought Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn’t do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have.
..
It’s a story that plays out often in organizations and companies and on teams—anywhere there is culture that lacks accountability.
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by darb » Sun May 02, 2021 5:53 pm

@Brian As people here say its primary a lack of regularly communication & leadership posts with bad or good news, whoever should be responsible for communicate how fantastic the whole Joomla open source project is - so we all Joomlers can be proud and create confidence of what Joomla is and can deliver.

Does it work now with the externals views of Joomla.org website and that communication how well Joomla is going? hmm not so good and I also missing it and hope it can be better with regularly monthly "team leader" news updates on Joomla.org.

So what is mean is that Joomla(ers) right now doesn’t understand that its more in a successful project than a great code to be successful in a harsh more competitive publishing tool world where you also have to plan and understand the right communication marketing, pr, image creating activities & strategies.
If the project lead is as lost as the rest of us are then GitHub is not a "good place" to discover where we are.
I don’t agree with you Sozzled many times :D but here you are spot on and also now bcs there is no one stepping up and finalise the never ending of continuously Joomla 4 betas new development(s).

The world are looking at Joomla and judging what’s going on if it’s a project to trust or not especially from business analysis perspective - not coders. So hopefully we have some good news very soon. :)

As side note I also would like the Magazine post get more attention on Joomla main page bcs that’s something that’s unique with Joomla stories not about coding only and can create a positive influence for newcomers coming to read about Joomla first time.

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Tue May 04, 2021 8:39 pm

We're seeing some indications that the Production Team is taking the commonsense approach concerning the—overly ambitious—scope for J! 4. For all practical purposes, the Content Security Policy component will be disabled (or removed) from J! 4.0. As we discussed before, it was all a bit overwhelming.

J! 4's Content Security Policy featured in the Joomla Community Magazine in June last year as well as in a presentation given at J and Beyond 2020.

It would be a good idea to place a note in the documentation for J! 4 to say that the feature isn't available in J! 4.0, i.e. that it may be revisited (perhaps in a different form) for a future release. The affected articles are: The Production Team has also decided, not unsurprisingly, to drop FTP layer support for J! 4.0. In my opinion, this is a good move (considering the countless months that have been wasted discussing whether to keep it or not). As far as I'm concerned, FTP layer is something that affects less than 1% of all J! websites and, considering that J! 4 represents about 0.1% of all J! websites in use, we're only talking about a very small number in total.

The difficulty for us is that it will take another month before the these decisions are publicised via the Joomla! Official News and probably not before the release of J! 3.9.27; the Production Team has not substantially updated its registry of motions since November last year.
Last edited by sozzled on Tue May 04, 2021 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by Webdongle » Tue May 04, 2021 9:20 pm

sozzled wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:39 pm
...
The Production Team has also decided, not unsurprisingly, to drop FTP layer support for J! 4.0. In my opinion, this is a good move (considering the countless months that have been wasted discussing whether to keep it or not). ...
:laugh: that debate has been going on for some years not just in that tracker
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by darb » Wed May 05, 2021 4:48 am

The removal of ftp layer and CSP (temporary) is showing that decisive important actions of leadership stepping up can happen also in Joomla world so the project as a whole could move more rapidly forward.

If no leadership and action - the development cycle(s) can continue forever.

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by tijs » Wed May 12, 2021 7:26 am

This was a useful thread to read for someone like myself who started off with Mambo over a decade ago. Sadly, I am genuinely concerned about the future of Joomla and my dozen websites or so.

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by darb » Wed May 12, 2021 7:40 am

The new Joomla 4 will be a really amazing free easy to use CMS in the world when released for its flexible, stable, fast, secure development community when released very soon. :D

So dont worry if you have used Joomla 3.9.26 and know how good Joomla is right now and how impressive Joomla 4 will be for millions of users for companies, organsations, blogs or business cloud solutions.

Dont worry come back with that site you have switched and get a better developer that "really" understand Joomla so you can sleep well hahaha

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Wed May 12, 2021 7:53 am

darb wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:40 am
The new Joomla 4 will be a really amazing free easy to use CMS in the world when released for its flexible, stable, fast, secure development community when released very soon.
How do you know all of this? How "soon" is very soon? On present estimates, J! 4.0 stable probably won't happen this calendar year. I could be wrong; I'm making my prediction of what I actually know, not on the empty promises made by the marketing department. As for the "development community" behind all of this, that community is becoming less populous with each passing day.
Last edited by sozzled on Wed May 12, 2021 8:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by tijs » Wed May 12, 2021 7:59 am

darb wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:40 am
The new Joomla 4 will be a really amazing free easy to use CMS in the world when released for its flexible, stable, fast, secure development community when released very soon. :D

So dont worry if you have used Joomla 3.9.26 and know how good Joomla is right now and how impressive Joomla 4 will be for millions of users for companies, organsations, blogs or business cloud solutions.

Dont worry come back with that site you have switched and get a better developer that "really" understand Joomla so you can sleep well hahaha
I assume you are being sarcastic here?

FWIW I have been fighting a rearguard battle in my organisation to defend Joomla as a viable CMS in 2021. Yet the more I encounter various problems on my existing websites (modules and menus are still a mess after all these years), the more I am tempted to look elsewhere and make the switch.

I hadn't really been following the latest for a few years and always assumed J4 was just around the corner, but now it seems like that's not going to happen any time soon.

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by darb » Wed May 12, 2021 1:48 pm

@tijs Joomla 3.9.+ is very different than Joomla 1 & 1.5 that you had experience of. Its another world. I have been using Joomla since 2005 too and there is a lot of improvements that not seen on front page or Joomla.org website messages to the world. And we never forget the fight mootools - jquery battle dont we? This type of misstakes are better taken care of now with a better understanding of markets "needs" so build a good prototype for your org to showcase how good Joomla can be and deliver for them.

Make a draft of a role based system Role Based ACL for your organsation where you can take some slides from Randy Carey https://www.[youtube].com/watch?v=CFqXAc3orkY and https://magazine.joomla.org/all-issues/ ... -based-acl https://magazine.joomla.org/all-issues/ ... s-i-choose

https://magazine.joomla.org/all-issues/ ... -based-acl https://www.slideshare.net/careytech/ro ... d-acl-2013

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Wed May 12, 2021 2:26 pm

I don't understand what Randy Carey's thoughts about ACLs—written in 2015—have to do with J! 4. We're discussing the absence of news about the J! 4 project. I repeat my question:
sozzled wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:53 am
darb wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:40 am
The new Joomla 4 will be a really amazing free easy to use CMS in the world when released for its flexible, stable, fast, secure development community when released very soon.
How do you know all of this? How "soon" is very soon? On present estimates, J! 4.0 stable probably won't happen this calendar year. I could be wrong; I'm making my prediction of what I actually know, not on the empty promises made by the marketing department. As for the "development community" behind all of this, that community is becoming less populous with each passing day.
If @darb has nothing to contribute to our knowledge about the status of J! 4 then it would be better to watch and learn. ;)
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by darb » Wed May 12, 2021 3:23 pm

In Joomla world very soon is latin way of "mañana" :D

Joomla 4 b8 release can be downloaded https://developer.joomla.org/nightlies/ ... ackage.zip I doubt and hope there will be no more Joomla 4 b9 before the release rc1 candidate comes out very soon. :pop If there is no release blockers poping up again in last minute and all the rest is sorted out. :eek:

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by tijs » Wed May 12, 2021 3:36 pm

darb wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:48 pm
@tijs Joomla 3.9.+ is very different than Joomla 1 & 1.5 that you had experience of. Its another world. I have been using Joomla since 2005 too and there is a lot of improvements that not seen on front page or Joomla.org website messages to the world.
Yes, of course it has come a long way, and I have used all the intermediate versions, but let's face it, it has equally become very bloated. Without all kinds of extensions it lacks basic functionality and yet the extensions add more bloat. A Catch 22 really and very tricky to achieve a speedy news website with +10,000 articles. I couldn't care less about super advanced ACL / FTP layers etc. Adding the tags over 5 years ago seemed like a good step but actually using it in practice you also realise this has never been implemented properly, as if nobody is actually using this stuff on live websites.

But this is all beside the point. My main concerns now are:
1) this very forum seems pretty dead. It used to be a hive of activity
2) there is no proper roadmap for J4

The second point especially is a bit alarming to me. I really hope I am wrong but to me it seems all is not well at the dev side of things, and I for one am starting to make alternative plans. And yes, there may well be no viable alternative.

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Wed May 12, 2021 5:28 pm

darb wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 3:23 pm
Joomla 4 b8 release can be downloaded https://developer.joomla.org/nightlies/ ... ackage.zip
J! 4 Beta 8 does not exist. The last official news/announcement about the availability for J! 4 was on 2 February this year. This announcement — 3½ months ago — is the reason for this discussion. Once again, @darb is only trying to distract us from the purpose of this discussion.

Hoping that there will be no further releases of J! 4 before a first RC version "very soon" is also not news. We've been hoping for a first RC version for the past three years—ever since the announcement that J! 3.x series was "retiring". Some people continue to hope; that's good. In the meantime, life and business go on and people make their own pathways.
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by AlexVega » Wed May 12, 2021 7:20 pm

darb wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 3:23 pm
In Joomla world very soon is latin way of "mañana" :D
Sorry, but "mañana" doesn't mean more than two years later...

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by Webdongle » Wed May 12, 2021 8:14 pm

Does it not mean 'Tomorrow'? And as tomorrow never comes (it's always tomorrow not now) it is synonymous with 'Never'. At least that is how many non Spanish speakers use it https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ma%C3%B1ana
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Wed May 12, 2021 8:26 pm

There's a Spanish saying (that former co-worker of mine who came from Argentina taught me) that @AlexVega would be quite familiar with I expect
¡Chocolate por la noticia!
:laugh:

Seems appropriate as far as the Joomla! Official News is concerned.
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by lovepoetryurdu » Wed May 12, 2021 8:44 pm

Things appear to be taking longer. Who knows if it's a lack of testers or if things are becoming more complex. However, there appears to be a lag.

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by Webdongle » Wed May 12, 2021 8:56 pm

Both probably
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by AlexVega » Wed May 12, 2021 9:08 pm

Webdongle wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 8:14 pm
Does it not mean 'Tomorrow'?
Yes, that's it.

But the context in which @darb used this word in his "joke" is a way to refer to the fact(or belief) that the people of Latin America never end in the deadlines they set. Similar to lazy people.

So is not funny.

sozzled wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 8:26 pm
There's a Spanish saying (that former co-worker of mine who came from Argentina taught me) that @AlexVega would be quite familiar with I expect
¡Chocolate por la noticia!
Jaj, Yes!, Greetings @sozzled and to your co-worker too.

We are still waiting for all the great news to come.

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by darb » Wed May 12, 2021 9:14 pm

@tjs if you have only 10.000 articles you just scale hardware and can also learn from super gov Joomla 2020 business case in India. Not everyone understand how to do this hosting environment and technical framework bcs Joomla is seen as a minor CMS system not for enterprises which is wrong.

Some key metrics
- Multilingual CMS based website (13 Indian languages) including RTL
- Serving almost 50 million (5 crore) hits a month - one of the buiest Joomla sites in the world
- Detailed User research, UX and definition of user flows
- Very creative use of CMS features to ensure easy content management and reduce duplication
- Menu Driven Automated landing pages
- Ability to Feature sections on landing pages
- 12 different content types with layout variations
- Completely built using Core Joomla features
- GIGW Compliance (Government of India Guidelines for websites including accessibility features)

check their business case(s)

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by darb » Wed May 12, 2021 9:19 pm

@AlexV not my attention and correct assumption. I also lived and worked in South America amigo. No eres broma pero tengo miedo para vivir mas aja Venezuela antes de Sr Chavez. Mucho corruption y matar personas.

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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Wed May 12, 2021 9:37 pm

@darb: you have not addressed the topic of this discussion. I asked you (and you have not answered): How do you know all of this from the official announcement about J! 4?

Do I care what's happening with business in India or whether J! is used there? Not really. Your last post has nothing to do with this discussion.

Do I care what the marketing hype says? No.

I'm not interested in marketing hype or reassurances that, if we're patient, things will happen "soon" ...

I'm interested in truth-telling. Tell us the truth about J! 4, based on evidence, not on empty promises.

Every day I spend an hour or more trawling through Google, through online media, looking at the latest team reports, looking for news about J! 4.0. I haven't found anything for months. I don't want to read the same material that I've read that's years old. I want news. Do you have any genuine official news about the J! project?

darb wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 9:14 pm
Joomla is seen as a minor CMS system not for enterprises which is wrong.
According to my sources, J! has lost a significant share in the CMS market and it's certainly not a major player. But so what? It's off-topic.

Please return to the topic. Thanks. ;)
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Wed May 12, 2021 9:51 pm

AlexVega wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 9:08 pm
But the context in which @darb used this word in his "joke" is a way to refer to the fact(or belief) that the people of Latin America never end in the deadlines they set. Similar to lazy people.

So is not funny.
I totally agree and [racist] overtones—whether intended or written in a way that's supposed to be funny—are completely inappropriate on an international discussion forum. :)

Salud. 8)
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by Webdongle » Wed May 12, 2021 11:09 pm

AlexVega wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 9:08 pm
...
But the context in which @darb used this word in his "joke" is a way to refer to the fact(or belief) that the people of Latin America never end in the deadlines they set. Similar to lazy people.

So is not funny.
...
I don't think he meant it as an insult at Latin people. Methinks it was badly put to mean that It was J4 is what Latin people call mañana not Latin people themselves.

And I agree that J4 will out mañana and mañana never comes.
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Wed May 12, 2021 11:37 pm

@Webdongle: it's better to not to draw attention to @darb's off-topic commentary. As non-native speakers of foreign languages, there are literal meanings and subtle nuances that neither you nor I would always be aware of. Regardless of the literal translation of certain words, sometimes it's best to not harp on about them. In any case, the discussion topic is not about whether J! 4 will be released soon or whether there may be obstacles in the path.

I don't care if J! 4.0 is released tomorrow or next month or next year. I don't care if there are enough developers and testers that can produce a new version of J! 4.0. I don't care if there are problems. I don't care if J! 4.0 is a catastrophe or the best thing since Adam discovered Eve ... 50% of the population would probably disagree with me that Adam and Eve were a happy match for one another. :laugh:

I do care that we aren't being told the truth—that there's total silence—about what's happening. I do care that people cannot get a simple answer to the question, "What's happening?" That's what I care about.
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by Webdongle » Thu May 13, 2021 2:28 am

sozzled wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 11:37 pm
@Webdongle: it's better to not to draw attention to @darb's off-topic commentary.
you did. And his comment was not off topic.
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Thu May 13, 2021 10:49 pm

There's some news—published today—about a proposed J! 4.0 RC release:
Joomla 4 Release Candidate seems to be around the corner (only 3 more release blockers). We will make another call for testing this Friday May 14 afternoon.
The number of release blockers has fallen (good) but there are 220+ pull requests and 700+ open issues. Not all of these open issues or pull requests necessarily impact on producing a working J! 4.0 RC version.

I don't think anyone is too concerned about how perfect J! 4.0 RC will be when it makes its debut. Nothing's perfect (and I don't think anyone expects it to be so). The key point in the report I referred to above is that a new call for volunteers to test a "candidate" for a release candidate for J! 4 will be made—somewhere at at some time—in the next 24-48 hours. That means a further period of time being is set aside for more testing between now and whenever J! 4.0 RC1 is released for broader testing by the community.

I don't know what "Next meeting [of the CMS Release Team] scheduled for Wed June 9" means or whether that meeting will decide how or whether to release J! 4.0 RC1. Meeting minutes are very cryptic and it would help if anyone knows more about what's happening if they would flesh out the details a bit more, please.
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Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by darb » Mon May 17, 2021 10:44 am

darb wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 5:53 pm
@Brian As people here say its primary a lack of regularly communication & leadership posts with bad or good news, whoever should be responsible for communicate how fantastic the whole Joomla open source project is - so we all Joomlers can be proud and create confidence of what Joomla is and can deliver.
If the project lead is as lost as the rest of us are then GitHub is not a "good place" to discover where we are.
I don’t agree with you Sozzled many times :D but here you are spot on and also now bcs there is no one stepping up and finalise the never ending of continuously Joomla 4 betas new development(s).
The leadership release manager(s) must step up now finally and "only" focus to guide people now to only solve prioritise the release blockers and make the upgrade path work for a Joomla 4rc.

Everything else could be solved later.

For example Joomla 3 have more than +80 updates since its release so Joomla 4 could and would follow the same path too - it will never be perfect for everything & everyone at the beginning thats why make maintenance & security & patch fixes releases in the future.

So these fixes for Joomla 3.9.27 right now, if we think in a similar way for Joomla 4 it will never be released bcs missing of these "crucial" fixes and still stopped bcs it’s not "ready". Who decides?

The whole Joomla community can’t wait to the next year for the release of Joomla 4.

What stopping Joomla 4 rc for being released now? I have to agree with Sozzled even I never agree with him in many other cases :D

when non news is news

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Location: Canberra, Australia

Re: "Once again": when non news is news

Post by sozzled » Mon May 17, 2021 10:40 pm

I wonder if anyone has read the latest news about J! 4.

Release candidate for J!4 on schedule for the coming weeks.
"On schedule", eh? "Coming weeks" ... whatever that means. It could mean June or July this year. ???

It's in line with the prediction I made recently.

I guess the real question on everyone's minds is ... when? I wouldn't be holding my breath, would you?
“If you think I’m wrong then say, ‘I think you’re wrong.’ If you say ‘You’re wrong!’, how do you know?” :)


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