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Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:30 am
by waarnemer
@All, stop being angry at eachother, learn, improve and enjoy Joomla!

Now we know it is all available, can we return to the topic please?

The design of the Administration.

Design can mean several things.

Is it the template? That is look 'n feel, colors, fonts, positions.... don't like it? Change it. Easy peasy...
Is it the structure? That needs more thought. I and the teams working on our sites can see through the template changes. However it is hard to see through structure changes as it requires them to restructure the way they work also. If these structural changes are fed by the urge to look more like WP, then DON'T. We chose Joomla! over WP because it meets our needs and way of work.

The people working on a daily basis on the sites don't care about development, they don't care about coding, they don't care about PHP, Apache, HTML, JS... whatever runs the sites under the hood... they chose it because it matches the workflows, methods and all that involves running an organisation (with a lot of people).
Everything and anything evolves. That is good. But changes that have too many impact on organisations will make these organisations reconsider. We may think the world turns around us Joomla! devs, designers and J! addicts.. for the rest, a CMS is what ads content to a site. It is a tool. Like any other in the tool shop. They will get the tool that fits them best.

On my agenda for next week... install latest and make an impact analysis together with the teams of users.
It will take me some time as I need to recreate some roles in the ACL. Maybe for content authors and such it will just be as usual. However I do expect resistance from site managers and admins...

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:45 am
by Webdongle
Hackwar wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:52 am
...
I have to correct myself here: The nightlies have been created pretty much at the same time the PR was created, so about a month ago....
Thank you, I accept that was an oversight on your part and not deliberate fud.

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:27 am
by chmst
Every new template gets resistance from site managers and admins... I remember very well the time of change from 2.5 to 3.x and all the screaming and moaning about the new template, where some people made own templates. It took some time until users and admins were used to the new layout.

People are afraid of changes, this is normal, especially old people.

What is not seen - and in fact it is not self-explainig, are the new possibilities for adapting the template and the whole backend to individual requirements of admins. Discover the power of menu presets and the possibilities which are given by the new dashboards with individual placement of modules.

Here documentation and teaching is needed, documentation has a desperate need for volunteers.

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:46 am
by GillianBPP
Could I politely request that the file name for the backend template is appended with the words 'backend' or something, so that there is absolutely no confusion when downloading the 'ordinary' development updates at the same or similar time?

Thank you.

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:12 am
by Hackwar
GillianBPP wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:46 am
Could I politely request that the file name for the backend template is appended with the words 'backend' or something, so that there is absolutely no confusion when downloading the 'ordinary' development updates at the same or similar time?

Thank you.
That nightly build is generated automatically and the script would need a modification. Since we are literally hours from merging the template, I would rather concentrate on fixing the test issues that we currently have than to work on this script.

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:27 am
by waarnemer
chmst wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:27 am
Every new template gets resistance from site managers and admins... I remember very well the time of change from 2.5 to 3.x and all the screaming and moaning about the new template, where some people made own templates. It took some time until users and admins were used to the new layout.
Yes but structure was almost similar to the 1.5. Elements being in the same place (topic) to be found.

As I mentioned before, there is a difference between template and structure. Templates I can recreate, changing structure is something completely different.

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:29 am
by Hackwar
And as Christiane wrote, there are powerfull ways to adapt the interface to your requirements, among them the possibility to change back to the old structure...

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:01 pm
by waarnemer
Hackwar wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:29 am
And as Christiane wrote, there are powerfull ways to adapt the interface to your requirements, among them the possibility to change back to the old structure...
Can you share the link where she wrote that?

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:03 pm
by Hackwar
waarnemer wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:01 pm
Hackwar wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:29 am
And as Christiane wrote, there are powerfull ways to adapt the interface to your requirements, among them the possibility to change back to the old structure...
Can you share the link where she wrote that?
chmst wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:27 am
Every new template gets resistance from site managers and admins... I remember very well the time of
What is not seen - and in fact it is not self-explainig, are the new possibilities for adapting the template and the whole backend to individual requirements of admins. Discover the power of menu presets and the possibilities which are given by the new dashboards with individual placement of modules.

Here documentation and teaching is needed, documentation has a desperate need for volunteers.

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:22 pm
by waarnemer
@Hackwar, thanks.. overread that one... was looking for Christiane in the thread but did not know it was "chmst".

My bad...

When I install latest next week I will look into this too.

Thanks again.

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:48 pm
by GillianBPP
Hackwar wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:12 am

That nightly build is generated automatically and the script would need a modification. Since we are literally hours from merging the template, I would rather concentrate on fixing the test issues that we currently have than to work on this script.
Fair enough, but perhaps something to consider if this situation should arise again, though.

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:45 pm
by Webdongle
Hackwar wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:12 am
... Since we are literally hours from merging the template, ...
Why has it not been merged earlier so that more input could be given before it was nearly completed?

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:32 pm
by Hackwar
Webdongle wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:45 pm
Hackwar wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:12 am
... Since we are literally hours from merging the template, ...
Why has it not been merged earlier so that more input could be given before it was nearly completed?
Because features are only merged when they are done. The pull request is the last place to give feedback, before a feature is ultimately accepted and merged.

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:21 pm
by Webdongle
So the 'new' Admin Template is a feature and that is why it was kept away from everyone else?

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:33 pm
by Hackwar
Webdongle wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:21 pm
So the 'new' Admin Template is a feature and that is why it was kept away from everyone else?
Exactly. Love your thinly vailed insults. Don't expect to get a response from me again.

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:41 am
by ooffick
Mod Note: please keep all comments civil and do not attack other members of the forum.

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:00 am
by Webdongle
I am civil (I have not swore or resorted to name calling).
I have not attacked anyone, I have only pointed out where their comments do not matched the facts.

I do not make veiled insults I make open accusations when I doubt the honesty of what has been said. There is a group of devs who deliberately exclude the rest of the community. That stinks.

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:15 am
by brian
Please stay on topic AND comment on the code not the person.

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:03 pm
by Webdongle
I am on topic. The devs deliberately excluded many volunteers from contributing. Congratulations you have just managed to take the enjoyment from contributing to the forum Well done you have finally mmanaged to get rid of me. From now on I will use the software but refrain from helping anyone. Goodby.

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:21 pm
by jonBuckner1
Thanks webdongle for all the help you have given me

Very much appreciated

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:56 am
by simbus82
Is it possible to see a portfolio of "UI Design" projects of all volunteers that are working (and taking decisions) on the UI and on the CSS Styling of Backend Template?

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:30 am
by brian
Thats like asking to see a portfolio of all the extensions that have been created before someone is allowed to contribute. Not compatible with the concept of everyone contributing. Not compatible with "comment on the code not on the people"

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:27 pm
by simbus82
brian wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:30 am
Thats like asking to see a portfolio of all the extensions that have been created before someone is allowed to contribute. Not compatible with the concept of everyone contributing. Not compatible with "comment on the code not on the people"
You're right but, I'm sorry, only partially.
Big decisions had to be made by people with the right competences. "UI Design" is not a code to comment, UI Design is a competence, a project skill of a person.
A BE UI is one of commercial and communication pillars for having a software product adopted by the public.

My request is very different than your example. Anyone with a tutorial, some "experience" and some good lessons can propose a bunch of rows of code. Me too! And I have only "modified" thousands of lines of code, but I have developed very few "things" from scratch, so I wouldn't feel so skilled to do PRs related to the Joomla Core (except for obvious errors).

But a designer (a graphic or UI designer) must be a person with proven skills because his choices fall first on the UX, then on the saleability of the product and then on the "emotional" and visual aspect: the approval of the public.

No one in the audience today is liking the "aesthetical output" of this BE template (FB, TW, GitHub, this Forum). Being deaf about this is a symptom of some organization problems. There are only great developers who approve or disapprove of technical choices. Who needs a Ferrari without his iconic design?

All the fight I read on twitter and github, perhaps, are really born from the lack of competence in UI Design. Perhaps the problem is allowing decisions to be made by those who, in the case of the BE template, have no demonstration of competence in this field (UI Design).
I know that the community CAN works like this, but open source or not, you always need a project manager with transversal skills to guide a team of volunteers.
The problem is that, despite the giant step forward in J4, everything can be ruined (killing Joomla and taking it within a few years under the 1% of adoption) because of a poor BE UI ...

But maybe, I'm wrong ... in this case, sorry if I fear for the success of Joomla 4: it is a product that I have been promoting to all my clients with all my strength for years, fighting the ever increasing adoption of WP.

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:05 am
by Chacapamac
The problem is that, despite the giant step forward in J4, everything can be ruined (killing Joomla and taking it within a few years under the 1% of adoption) because of a poor BE UI ...
This is the main topic...

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:27 am
by Hackwar
The template has been merged into the main branch. It will be available in the normal nightly builds tomorrow.

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:12 am
by brian
Thanks to everyone who has worked on the template so far.

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:33 pm
by Chacapamac
I will take a look for sure...
Kind of worry....

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:22 am
by ies
I just saw the template of the backend (Joomla 4 Alpha 11) and I would like to kindly ask from the people who is responsible for this, to reconsider the design and appearance.

In the first versions of the Joomla 4 backend, I was positively surprised by the design. But now I mostly don't like what I see. I believe that the design of Joomla 4 backend is a very very important issue because we will be seeing it for many years every day. And this design is what will make new developers interested in Joomla 4 and I am almost sure it will not be the fresh new code behind it.

In other words: "The backend template will be the main promotional factor of Joomla 4."

You can see in the following link some of the reasons I don't like the backend template.
https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/issues/26006

Possibly you will ask why I give so much importance in the backend template. Because I believe that the common developers are not capable to see the real value of a CMS. The proof of that is that the most of them use WP! They can't see that Joomla is an advanced tool and WP is a joke in front of Joomla. They can't see the provided features, the database structure, the code, the philosophy and many other things. So we have to give them something easy for them and obvious in order to make them interested in Joomla and this is the backend template. Other than that, personally, I can't accept from Joomla anything less than a perfect backend template. All these years I am used to a very very good CMS that Joomla 3 is, so my expectations with Joomla 4 are very high!

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:46 pm
by Webdongle
ies wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:22 am
... Because I believe that the common developers are not capable to see the real value of a CMS. The proof of that is that the most of them use WP! ...
I don't see the conection between using wp and not knowing about design. But it would be interesting if you could prove a lot of the devs involved use wp for their sites.

Re: About the design of the administration?

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:27 pm
by ies
Webdongle wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:46 pm
ies wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:22 am
... Because I believe that the common developers are not capable to see the real value of a CMS. The proof of that is that the most of them use WP! ...
I don't see the conection between using wp and not knowing about design. But it would be interesting if you could prove a lot of the devs involved use wp for their sites.
My text above isn't talking about anybody who doesn't know about design. And I am not talking about the developers who intentionally select to use a CMS like Joomla or WP for a specific reason. These developers usually know about code and they write their own extensions. I am talking about the developers who say "I will use WP because they say it is the best". I believe there are many of them.

Also, there are a lot of clients saying the same: "I heard that WP is the best. Will we use it?". Maybe this is the reason why many of the involved developers prefer to use WP sometimes. They are pushed by the clients.

But forget about WP. All I want to say is: Please, lets create a better looking backend template for Joomla 4.