About the design of the administration? Topic is solved

[kawshar]

In that situation a company showed up a week ago and is proposing yet another new template. Joomla is open for this, but will not delay releases.

With due respect sir, we proposed another design 2 years back. Please have a look.

When I decided to propose something, I proposed with preparation. We are not here to increase your workload. We will help in code to achieve everything before 1st October.

And, about Brians concern, this is not that much to concern. We are not really changing anything. Everything will be the same with some minor markup and CSS tweaks to make it look like the design we proposed. I talked to you in Germany regarding positive changes and if we scared of changing then we are risking Joomla's future.

Thanks

[Hackwar]

In that situation a company showed up a week ago and is proposing yet another new template. Joomla is open for this, but will not delay releases.

With due respect sir, we proposed another design 2 years back. Please have a look.

When I decided to propose something, I proposed with preparation. We are not here to increase your workload. We will help in code to achieve everything before 1st October.

And, about Brians concern, this is not that much to concern. We are not really changing anything. Everything will be the same with some minor markup and CSS tweaks to make it look like the design we proposed. I talked to you in Germany regarding positive changes and if we scared of changing then we are risking Joomla's future.

Thanks

Regardless of me: you are proposing a new template. I haven't read anything from you that you are here to polish the existing template. That means at least 2 people have to go through your whole template and check it for accessibility, compatibility, do all features work, is the code up to standard, etc. There is no way that that isn't way more work than reviewing a few CSS fixes or JS improvements to an existing template. There are few people in the project who can do such a review and half of them can't really do such a review because they were involved in the current 4.0 template and thus are biased.

There are reasons why the current template looks different to the initial proposal, the same reasons which you are encountering right now, which made you drop your whole navigation concept and adopt the current one.

I will not work against you and will do my best to support you, but I would rather have seen us improve the current 4.0 template than to start a whole initiative to create a new one.

[kawshar]

I was involved with the current design also. You will find my name on Joomla blog post. I was always with the design team. But I am not a genuine designer.

The team is working on the design right now is graduated from the best graphic design university here in Bangladesh. They know UX, UI and definitely accessibility.

I am adding you again, we are actually not changing anything. Just making it more polished and giving it a modern look.

People love beautiful designs. We are also trying to reduce some clicks/steps.

As you guys are working on the current development. Please let us at least try on the new design. If we fail nothing will change

Thanks

[Chacapamac]

=========================== INTERLUDE ===============================
You can see here a lot of people that genuinely want to help and this is great.

This is one of the big reason that make me choose Joomla over other CMS, the other BIG reason is that Joomla is simply the better choice of CMS for any kind and size of web site in 2019.

I work (but not produce sites even if asked... Only the best for my clients, sorry!..) with WP and let me tell you that this is only for great friends stuck with it that I do so.

The truth is simple, producing & maintaining PROFESSIONALLY a WP site is simply nightmarish and their community and extensions developers are far (as Pluto is...) to be as helpful and/or professional. Also, a structure flexible as a brick and top rated extensions that bring down your site in seconds are the norm on the WP side my friends.

What will be great, is if Joomla will find a way to tap into that positive force and all the knowledge of the community behind it.

Github is for coders and as we see here, to make an even better CMS, you need more than just coders, you need people that develop Joomla websites as their main work and all the other type of users that cumulate tons of knowledge & experience in design, UI/UX and that can bring great ideas to the table.

When Joomla will start to tap in this force, ... Well the Force will be with it and we will beat the Dark Side...

Joke apart, a smart use of tools that are already implanted in Joomla, like this forum and other simple tools like Polling, voting and talking about new features, improvement, interface, ergonomic, etc. will really help this CMS and probably bring it back to the top level of the podium, where it should be.

So far, as we see in this post, not to much connexion or tangible & useful connexions and actions are made on that interface problems between Joomla Devs and the community.

Complaints and approval also design ideas are trow in this post but the train is going is way oblivious of the passengers talking between them.

Joomla need to develop an accessible tool or space in this forum (or else...) that will bring the community and the developers together to clarify the vision of both and also collect and prioritize ideas and join forces to better Our CMS.
===========================================================

Coming back to the main subject of this post “The administration interface” can the Dev's tell us what they think?, where are we going? and how we can help!

[waarnemer]

As a small reminder.... If we stick to bold language.. we end up nowhere....
Maybe sometimes without intent because a lot of us are no native speakers english.. sometimes there is intent. Beware your wording may just be misinterpreted... maybe mine also... my sincere appologies..

If you want to react out of anger or frustration. Do not.

On topic.

As I see it, there is a difference between "features 'n workflows" and "looks".

For the features and workflows I only have one issue.
Since when is a module considered content?
From https://docs.joomla.org/Module in short it is a means to show content (latest news, articles from tag and on) or functionality (menu, login, visitor count and on). The module itself is no content. IMHO it should reside under System->Manage... I don't know yet what will happen whith this when ACL rules I have in 3.9 are applied....
I can live with all other changes for now. Fine with me, didn't notice odd things other than those that will be solved eventually... this is all alpha...

"Looks" I am not too fond off as I think some configuration panels may become confusing thus complicated..there is no plain overview... at least that is my opinion and of my team members here that I showed the new j!4 admin........but I can solve using CSS.
I create a custom.css in the css folder of the admin template. It will be picked up automatically...


Developers, users, sitebuilders and all others... collaborate and be constructive... this CMS is too good to go to waste... and we cannot do without the other...

[rdeutz]

I am strongly against a 2nd admin template to be included in the core distribution and here is why

* The past has learned us that we don't have the resources to maintain two admin templates. Templates have to be maintained over the time the major release is available, this means minimum 2 to 3 years.
* Realistically to make this template ready to ship we need more than 6 months and the beta is around the corner, so letting you guys work on this is not fair. You will never finish this on time.
* The actual template might not be fancy, but we can't make so much changes because our user base should not have to learn to use a new template as fancy as it is. At the end of the day it is tool to manage the content, you can colour a hammer pink it is still a hammer and the nail will not bother.
* We need one really good template and if you guys have ideas to make the current better feel free to join the conversation and propose changes.

Sorry for being late to the discussion.

Robert

[Lodder]

Isn't it up to the release lead to decide whether or not the 2nd template is shipped in core?

I don't see why it's not just released as a 3rd party template externally. People can simply install it as an alternative, just like they do with other several extensions, such as JCE.

If shipped in core, Atum will just become the new Hathor

[waarnemer]

I create a custom.css in the css folder of the admin template. It will be picked up automatically...

It appears the correct name for a custom css is not custom.css but user.css

both will be picked up, but user.css is defined in the joomla.asset.json.
naming it the proper user.css will make it appear below the template.css therefore useful for overrides

[brian]

> If shipped in core, Atum will just become the new Hathor

or the 2nd template will be

[rdeutz]

Isn't it up to the release lead to decide whether or not the 2nd template is shipped in core?

Technically yes, but I wouldn't make such a long term decision as Relase Lead

[Magnytu2]

Hello, if you try to have a look other than developer. The Joomla! 4 alpha 11 is probably technically great. He is full of qualities.
But this template, will immediately run away any new user who understands nothing about the code and benefits of the template. When current users, 90% prefer to stay on Joomla! 3.9.12.
Please give the @Kawshar team a chance. He put tremendous resources, a dedicated team, and no counterpart. It has a month to get out of the ground a template to the requirements of Joomla.org. There will be bugs and defects, but as for Atum, he will have 3 months to fix the template before the final version of Joomla! 4.
This post on the forum is 22000 views is that the subject interjects the Joomlers. On Facebook, @Kawshar is enormously followed and its template attracts all attention. In addition he asks us our opinion. He explains these technical or visual choices.
Please, let @Kawshar make Joomla! 4 beautiful besides being an excellent CMS.

Bonjour, s'il vous essayez d'avoir un regard autre que développeur. Le template de Joomla! 4 alpha 11 est surement techniquement génial. Il est plein de qualités.
Mais ce template, fera fuir immédiatement tout nouvel utilisateur qui ne comprend rien au code et aux avantages du template. Quand aux utilisateurs actuel, 90% préfèreont rester sur Joomla! 3.9.12.
S'il vous plait laisser une chance à l'équipe de @Kawshar. Il a mis des moyens énormes, une équipe dévoué, et sans contre partie. Il a un mois pour sortir de terre une template aux exigences de Joomla.org. Il y aura des bugs et des défauts, mais comme pour Atum, il aura 3 mois pour corriger le template avant la version final de Joomla! 4.
Ce post sur le forum est a 22000 vues, c'est que le sujet interresse les Joomlers. Sur Facebook, @Kawshar est énormément suivi et son template attire toutes les attentions. De plus il nous demande notre avis. Il explique ces choix technique ou visuel.
S'il vous plait, laissez @Kawshar rendre Joomla! 4 magnifique en plus d'être un excellent CMS.

[Chacapamac]

waarnemer

If we stick to bold language, If you want to react out of anger or frustration. Do not

— Don’t worry waarnemer, I wasn’t mad, just a “Design” misconception on that particular post —

Since when is a module considered content?
From https://docs.joomla.org/Module in short it is a means to show content (latest news, articles from tag and on) or functionality (menu, login, visitor count and on). The module itself is no content. IMHO it should reside under System->Manage...

— Yes, I think under System will be also good, but as “it is a means to show content” I personally think “Content” is a better place


rdeutz

I am strongly against a 2nd admin template to be included in the core distribution

— Wy waist our time with 2 admin template, let’s make one good one. Alpha 11 already give some flexibility to re-arrange it to the taste or need of the site owner. Let’s just make one good flexible template.

but we can't make so much changes because our user base should not have to learn to use a new template as fancy as it is.

— The template propose in Alpha 11 is visually “All over the place” and don’t look at all like the clean simple template of Joomla 3. It look like that because it was develop by coder nor designer. The function are ok but the ergonomic and visual impact are simply wrong

— This is for that that what I propose before —> viewtopic.php?f=803&t=970614&start=180#p3579474 is simply light alteration to the existing Alpha 11 design that are easy to implement with basically the exact same structure.

By the way, the template I propose are way closer to was Joomla 3 give us visually.

The actual template might not be fancy, but we can't make so much changes because our user base should not have to learn to use a new template as fancy as it is. At the end of the day it is tool to manage the content, you can colour a hammer pink it is still a hammer and the nail will not bother

— Yes, I’m sure the pink hammer will become a relentless success in sale for the average contractors and Home builders.

Here, as a designer first, I can assure you that you are wrong.
Especially in complexe software interface, a bad design and ergonomic can simply kill a product, even if it’s the best in the world

here in bold, because this is so important for the future of Joomla, not because I’m mad —

[brian]

You are all being very rude about the designers who designed the admin template.

Developers only implemented the design.

[Magnytu2]

@Brian, I have never been rude to the designers. Never.
I want only good for the designers, the developers, and especially the CMS Joomla!

[waarnemer]

Well... the "lightest change" I need is this... just a few overrides to the css and I just increased my teams "almost weekend happiness"...

drop this is in a user.css and see how easy it can be (check and compare global config and article options)..

Code: Select all

/* change of some background-colors to enhance ui/ux */
header {
	background-color: var(--atum-bg-light) !important;
}
#wrapper {
	background-color: var(--white);
}

/* have author at least see where to put the title when authoring some content..*/
.title-alias label {
	font-weight: bold;
}

/* options in article editor in columns instead of rows (recursive) - columns allows for a better overview */
@media (min-width:576px) {
	.com_content section[name=Options] {
		column-count: 2;
	}
}
@media (min-width:992px) {
	.com_content section[name=Options] {
		column-count: 3;
	}
}
.options-grid-form > div {
	display: block !important;
	-webkit-column-break-inside: avoid;
	page-break-inside: avoid;
	break-inside: avoid;
}

/* bring some intuitive order in global configuration... have yes/no switches BEHIND the label instead of BELOW */
.com_config .form-no-margin .control-group .controls .switcher__legend {
	float: left;
}

Tested on both FF and Chrome... there maybe some odd things left as I did not have the time to go over each and all configuration tab on each and any component, module and/or plugin yet. But assuming there is at least some consistency somewhere, I am not too afraid... and it is almost weekend

So I hope anyone can see now how easy it actually is to make desired design changes.. there may be some different ideas on how some workflows changed, but then again, no change, no future...
I will probably come up with some more css to improve.... but for now my team is happy.

If a third party needs to create another one. fine.. I would like to stick to just one to avoid any misunderstanding...

And stop the bitching.........

[kawshar]

You are all being very rude about the designers who designed the admin template.

Developers only implemented the design.

I was also in the design team of the current template. You can find my name there. Look, the template we proposed is 90% the same as the existing one just with a modern look & some minor UX fix.

Also, we are not forcing anyone to code on this because this will not be fair, to be honest as many amazing developers worked on this for a long period of time. We respect everyone's hard work and they did mind-blowing job with the code.

In return, we are not expecting anything. We have not posted on our site, did not put our watermark on the design. It's all for Joomla. Joomla is a volunteer project and I am doing it as a Joomla volunteer. I am just paying the designers and developers who are working on that project for their hard work. Treat it like sponsorship for Joomla.

You may recall, my company sponsored almost 80% Joomla events & conferences all over the world since 2015. I had a plan to sponsor JWC 19 this year too and had some budgets. I am just spending that money here.

I hope it makes sense

No matter what, always love Joomla and you guys as well who worked day & night to make Joomla great.

Thanks

[Chacapamac]

From Brian;

You are all being very rude about the designers who designed the admin template.

I know how it feels, I’m in design for more than 25 years, from the start I did have an eye for it, but if it wasn't for the numerous cold shower (and explanation) I get by my bosses on disputable design, I will have never learn and still think I’m a genius.

Sadly it is even truer in the design community as we qualify ourself as “artist” it’s always hard when somebody points to you that your work is not to par.

The only way to become a great designer (Or whatever else) is to listen, listen to your pear, your clients, the people around you and don’t be scared to stop and take few steps back on your work.

[Magnytu2]

Hello friends, I need you to sign this petition. She is not against the Joomla! 4 administrator template (I have too much respect for developers) but for an alternative template. Thank you in advance.
http://chng.it/5n6nKPKW

Bonjour les amis, j'ai besoin de vous pour signer cette pétition. Elle n'est pas contre le template administrateur de Joomla! 4 (j'ai trop de respect pour les développeurs) mais pour un template alternatif. Merci d'avance.
http://chng.it/5n6nKPKW

[Hackwar]

Hello friends, I need you to sign this petition. She is not against the Joomla! 4 administrator template (I have too much respect for developers) but for an alternative template. Thank you in advance.
http://chng.it/5n6nKPKW

What do you think this petition should achieve? Should we create a new template? Should we modify the existing one? Should we delay the J4 release another 2 years? What happens when that new effort fails? Sorry to say this, but this petition is a complete waste of time. Not just because it does not have any call for action, but because also the implied call for action for the project to wait, fails to see all the consequences attached to it. For starters, I would assume that the current Release Lead would throw in the towel if his plans would be voted against by the PLT. Then I would also assume that most of the current contributors would stop their work, since J4 wouldn't be released any time soon. Any further development work would complicate the migration from 3.x to 4.0 and thus J4 would have a technical standstill. I could go on and on, but I hope you get the point. The project has no interest in delaying the release any further than it already has been delayed. So the only thing that you can do to get a different template (besides the current default template) included in 4.0, would be to help with development.

[Magnytu2]

I'm not a developer, I'm not a pro. I'm just a Joomla fan! I don't want to delay Joomla! I just want to have a sexier and more enjoyable Joomla experience.

Je ne suis pas un développeur, je ne suis pas un pro. Je suis juste un fan de Joomla! Je ne veux pas retarder Joomla! Mais simplement avoir une expérience Joomla! plus sexy et agréable.

[Chacapamac]

From Magnytu2
About your petition...
I don’t understand why we need a petition to say yes or no to templates alternatives
— Alternatives are always good, the only caveat here is that it need to be the main template adopted by Joomla an external template choice will not help Joomla as no website developers will trust a CMS that cannot even integrate a professional administrative template.

Personally, I try Joomla alpha 11 and the functionality (at the first level) of the administrative template is pretty good. Not to much change to do there.
Didn’t look at deeper menu levels,not to much time to give now, but I will.

The Joomla alpha 11 administrative template just need a bit of design love !

From Hackwar

What do you think this petition should achieve?

As I say, the petition itself seem to me a waist of time, these “Designers” should do it (with the help of Joomla community) and present it to Joomla, well if it’s good enough, it can be integrated as a second template choice in Joomla or if excellent, as the default administrative template.

Should we create a new template?

No, this will be also a big waist of time when, already, the actual administrative template is the cause of this post.

Should we modify the existing one?

Nothing is really wrong (at the first level) with the actual template. As I was saying, only few hours of css skinning (I calculate 3 to 5 hours max) and maybe an hour of structural html, that’s it to change the actual alpha 11 template to my proposition here —> viewtopic.php?f=803&t=970614&start=180#p3579474

Everybody is welcome to present better design, but it should be base on the actual alpha 11 template (not reinventing the wheel) and take few hours to implement.

Should we delay the J4 release another 2 years?

Let’s not play the martyr card here, Joomla is and seem to be close to release. As I was saying, lets fix a bit the visual and ergonomic and go on with our lives…

[Magnytu2]

@chacapamac here you give me an answer from a developer who knows css ski... html etc... I do not question your competence, nor that of the Joomla developers! 4.

It is only an aesthetic and commercial point of view. Despite all the features and functionalities of the J4 template, it is not very pleasant. @Kwashar presents us with a beautiful administrator template. I just hope that many of us will recognize the work of this team and support this project. It's a chance to be able to do something beautiful and good with Joomla! 4.

@chacapamac ici vous me faite une réponse de développeur connaissant css ski… html etc … Je ne remet pas en cause ni votre compétence, ni ceux des développeurs Joomla! 4.

C'est uniquement un point de vue esthétique et commercial. Malgré toutes les caractéristiques et fonctionnalités du template J4, il est peu agréable. @Kwashar nous présente un magnifique template administrateur. Je souhaite juste que l'on soit nombreux a reconnaitre le travail de cette équipe et que l'on soutienne ce projet. C'est une chance de pouvoir faire du beau et du bon avec Joomla! 4.

[kawshar]

@chacapamac here you give me an answer from a developer who knows css ski... html etc... I do not question your competence, nor that of the Joomla developers! 4.

It is only an aesthetic and commercial point of view. Despite all the features and functionalities of the J4 template, it is not very pleasant. @Kwashar presents us with a beautiful administrator template. I just hope that many of us will recognize the work of this team and support this project. It's a chance to be able to do something beautiful and good with Joomla! 4.

Hey, no need for a petition. We are working hard to make it a reality. Our aim is to keep everything that is available now. I promise you, we will release the working version by end of this month.

I have requested to create a Joomla branch so that everyone can see the real-time progress.

Thanks for your cooperation Magnytu2.

[gws]

@kawshar Thank you for your efforts and I look forward to the release.

[kawshar]

@kawshar Thank you for your efforts and I look forward to the release.

You are welcome. It's for Joomla (Y)

[Chacapamac]

@Kwashar presents us with a beautiful administrator template.

As I was saying, go ahead and give Joomla alternatives, no problem and the work by Jomshaper seem good and bring good ideas.

Note: I’m not so sure about the “Windows 10” dashboard... seem a little lite for me as a backend editor amd/or newbie to Joomla. Remember that this is a work space and the dashboard is the main one.



BUT, We need to build on Alpha 11 existing administrative template
— No time to reinvent the wheel here and not necessary...

The mechanic and overall structure (at the first level) of Alpha 11 administrative template is good.

As I was saying (& proposing) what we need its an easy to implement amelioration and homogeneity of the design of the Alpha 11 administrative template, NOW!

I really like to see other presentation than mine, that will be great...
Or any discussion about it to help me ameliorate it that will also be great...

[kawshar]

There are many people already working on the current one and what I have realized they are in the right direction to release working beta by October. So, I don't think there is any chance to improve the current design. If you want to suggest anything, then other people may not like you.

And, to be honest, I don't think current design offers anything new ( though I was in the design team ) to the users. According to the trend, in 2019/2020 people really want to see a trendy design so that they can present to their clients and customers. That's why I created a design team ( volunteer ). Then wasted 20 days with the team because I found no one is accountable when they work with something for free. So, I decided to create a team from my company to design a new interface for Joomla 4. I promised myself to develop the template too if people love it.

After showing the design to the community, 90% of people took it positively and that's why I decided to code the project. Now, our code progress is around 20% and I hope we can finish a working Beta by the end of this month.

As you are talking about the improvement of the current design. Well, it's an improvement. If we wanted to design something new with radical UX change it would not be easier to keep all existing features.

However, after finishing the code, I will share a comparison in terms of UX and UI to the community. Let's see what the "users" reaction and feedbacks.

Thanks

[deleted user]

if it’s good enough, it can be integrated as a second template choice in Joomla or if excellent, as the default administrative template

Has nobody learned from the last decade why having multiple templates for either the frontend or backend out-of-the-box is a bad idea? ONE core template, put the effort into that. Or do you really think it's good that Joomla ships a half broken template because nobody pays attention to it (Hathor for admin, Beez3 for frontend)?

[kawshar]

Has nobody learned from the last decade why having multiple templates for either the frontend or backend out-of-the-box is a bad idea? ONE core template, put the effort into that. Or do you really think it's good that Joomla ships a half broken template because nobody pays attention to it (Hathor for admin, Beez3 for frontend)?

We are working our proposed template as the only template for Joomla admin. Not as an alternative. Because in order to achieve all UX improvements we need to work on the system files. For example, to achieve the media manager design we are working on the new Media manager using VueJS which is impossible to override from the template part.

Thanks

[Webdongle]

... we are working on the new Media manager using VueJS which is impossible to override from the template part.

...

So in J4 we loose the Template override feature for the Admin Template? What other features are being sacrificed?