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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Hackwar » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:38 pm

Webdongle wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:28 pm
kawshar wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:23 pm
... we are working on the new Media manager using VueJS which is impossible to override from the template part.

...
So in J4 we loose the Template override feature for the Admin Template? What other features are being sacrificed?
No, only the media manager has been written with VueJS and thus does not allow the classic template overrides. Everything else is the same as before.
Last edited by toivo on Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: typo
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by brian » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:40 pm

deleted as other posts at the same time made it appear to refer to something it wasnt referring to
Last edited by brian on Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by kawshar » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:45 pm

Webdongle wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:28 pm
So in J4 we loose the Template override feature for the Admin Template? What other features are being sacrificed?
Did you even read my comment? There is no such a feature available in Joomla right now or not will be in the future. In order to achieve UX improvement and better functionality, we are adding some minor features in the core files.

Layouts are overridden, not core functionalities.

Seems you guys are treating me/us as a villain. I am trying extremely hard to offer something good, working straight 12-14 hours each day with 15 people without any weekend.

However, thanks.
Last edited by toivo on Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: typo

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by mbabker » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:59 am

kawshar wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:45 pm
Seems you guys are treating me/us as a villain.
I have nothing against you or anyone trying to contribute. With that said though...

1) I stopped following the Facebook group ages ago. And I don't really care to start following it again because all it is going to do is annoy me. Anyone who puts up with me more than 10 minutes a day knows how easily I am annoyed by the state of Joomla and 4.0 right now.

2) Shipping two templates for either app in core is a bad idea. Hathor or Beez3 anyone? And let's not throw the "core supported" tag on it, Weblinks clearly did well with that tag on it.

3) 4.0 has effectively been in development for 4 years now. For the better part of the last 2 years, the single thing blocking 4.0 shipping has basically been the admin template. Pick a darn template and roll with it already, or we can spend another 2 years creating another 2 or 3 new iterations of the admin template and have a poll over the 5 or 6 admin templates created in the span of one major release window.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by waarnemer » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:14 am

kawshar wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:23 pm
the new Media manager using VueJS which is impossible to override from the template part.

Apart from the fact I do not want a second template for admin as I think in the end it will lead to support issues.. Not only here, but also from my local perspective... still

I cannot see why a JavaScript framework makes it impossible to have overrides? Unless you do all HTML rendering in the core functional code and not in the views.. where they belong.

Even when vue.js is used.. there will always be parts where overrides are needed, even in the admin template, just because in some companies workflows, procedures and regulations demand....

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by kawshar » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:36 am

waarnemer wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:14 am
Apart from the fact I do not want a second template for admin as I think in the end it will lead to support issues.. Not only here, but also from my local perspective... still
This is nothing related to the template. Well, let me explain step by step.

The new media manager is under development for more than 2 years. It was in planned maybe from 2016. But, the development is held I don't know why for a long. Many things do not work as expected. For example, if you upload a new media then there is a progress bar which supposed to show real progress. But, when we started working on the UI, we saw that the progress bar is not giving any upload progress value rather than a static value for all media including multiple files. So, we fixed the issues which are not actually a UI part but core development part. And, without the progress value you can not achieve the proposed UX.

I hope that answered your question.

Thanks

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by kawshar » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:58 am

mbabker wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:59 am
I have nothing against you or anyone trying to contribute. With that said though...

1) I stopped following the Facebook group ages ago. And I don't really care to start following it again because all it is going to do is annoy me. Anyone who puts up with me more than 10 minutes a day knows how easily I am annoyed by the state of Joomla and 4.0 right now.

2) Shipping two templates for either app in core is a bad idea. Hathor or Beez3 anyone? And let's not throw the "core supported" tag on it, Weblinks clearly did well with that tag on it.

3) 4.0 has effectively been in development for 4 years now. For the better part of the last 2 years, the single thing blocking 4.0 shipping has basically been the admin template. Pick a darn template and roll with it already, or we can spend another 2 years creating another 2 or 3 new iterations of the admin template and have a poll over the 5 or 6 admin templates created in the span of one major release window.
Hey Michael, thank you very much for your comment. A great fan of your work (Y).

1. I think it's important to talk to the people who actually represent Joomla. No matter how bitter it is. I am also annoyed about the delay. I heard about Joomla 4 in JWC 15 in India and the progress so far is really frustrating. I was working with the Joomla 4 admin template with Elisa and some other people from 2017. But, I did not have much to contribute. I run Joomla templates company & that's why I try to see design first for any product. To be honest with you, I was not 100% happy with the designed that the team including me were working on. But, I was not disappointed too. Recently I met her (Elisa) in Berlin and talked a lot about the progress and she said she is no longer involved with Joomla 4 admin template anymore and someone else is working on another design. So, I got curious and wanted to see the new design. I talked to Marco and he shows me something and at a glance, I found it not something ready for 2020. So, I requested Marco to take some times and design something more appealing. But, he said that the team worked so hard on this and only simple changes can be made. Also, the deadline is pretty close. That time I decided to design a new UI on top of the current one and formed a volunteer design team. After wasting 20 days, I found it very difficult to work with a group of people who work for free. So, I decided to form a team from my office and here I am the volunteer. If it's not me then I want YooTheme or RocketTheme to design Joomla admin template because they have a great taste of design.

2. My vision is only one template in the admin. If you guys find it better than the current one then I will request you guys to adopt the design. We will ensure accessibility, coding standards and we will support you as long as you want.

3. I am aware of that. That's why not forcing anything to the developers. I have created a team who are actively working on the project. I will deliver a working Joomla 4 admin template by end of this month. This is the Github repo link we are working on https://github.com/kawshar/backend-template

Thank you very much for your time and I am sorry for such a long reply.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:42 pm

Cant install it into the J4 alpha 12 dev?
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by kawshar » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:45 pm

Webdongle wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:42 pm
Cant install it into the J4 alpha 12 dev?
We have not code that yet. Team is working on it. We will share an installable Joomla. Or, you can keep your eye on this https://github.com/kawshar/backend-template

Thanks

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:01 pm

mbabker wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:59 am
Pick a darn template and roll with it already, or we can spend another 2 years creating another 2 or 3 new iterations ...
What I propose take maybe 5 hours to implement on Alpha 11 existing template.

viewtopic.php?f=803&t=970614&start=180#p3579474
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by kawshar » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:08 pm

Chacapamac wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:01 pm
mbabker wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:59 am
Pick a darn template and roll with it already, or we can spend another 2 years creating another 2 or 3 new iterations ...
What I propose take maybe 5 hours to implement on Alpha 11 existing template.

viewtopic.php?f=803&t=970614&start=180#p3579474
Your design looks good to me (Y)

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by mbabker » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:18 pm

waarnemer wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:14 am
I cannot see why a JavaScript framework makes it impossible to have overrides? Unless you do all HTML rendering in the core functional code and not in the views.. where they belong.
The way Vue works makes having template override-able markup a bit tricky without some complex workflows. The more common workflow sees you build templates for your components entirely in JavaScript using render functions or single file components which have a "special" HTML syntax. It is also possible to build things in a way where the markup is generated server-side, but in my limited experience with Vue that way is much less common (and in fact the only time I've ever seen that workflow used is in Laravel Spark, and even within Laravel that's the only product that seems to use that workflow as Nova, Horizon, and Telescope all use the more conventional single file components). https://vuejs.org/v2/guide/components-e ... -Templates even explains this way of rendering is considered more of an edge case than a preferred workflow.

So if you're looking at a web application as only working in the way Joomla conventionally does (where your pages are rendered 100% server side and JavaScript interacts with that rendered DOM) and not in newer build processes where you have a JavaScript framework that handles much more of your rendering and the server acts as more of an API, then the notion that using a JavaScript frameworks makes Joomla's notion of template overrides more complex may make no sense to you. But the reality is that newer technologies have different workflows that are not entirely compatible with the way Joomla has been built and has historically functioned under the hood.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:52 pm

kawshar wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:08 pm
Your design looks good to me (Y)
This is base on Alpha 11 design, only some background colour, few small structural change and bam, you got some uniformity and it bring sense to the interface. As I was saying, maybe around 5 hour of work.

• If anybody have ideas or suggestions to that design that will not demand extended work for Joomla Devs, I will be happy to integrate it in another presentation.

• Also, alternatives (with the same low rework time requirement) will be appreciate.

Last design presented here —> viewtopic.php?f=803&t=970614&start=180#p3579474

• Any comments from the actual people involved in Joomla template will be also a great help.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by brian » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:35 pm

> So, we fixed the issues which are not actually a UI part but core development

That's what is so dam frustrating about people working in silos behind closed doors. That's nothing to do with the template. Its a bug. So why havent you submitted a bug report or even better as you have fixed it a pull request.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by waarnemer » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:46 am

mbabker wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:18 pm
The way Vue works ......
Clear... Thanks for the explanation.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Lodder » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:18 am

@kawshar What's your primary branch where all commits are being merged to in your repo?

I can also see from a lot of commits that your team are bastardising the SCSS. Both Babker and myself have raised the issues with the current SCSS.

It's all very well being able to somehow create what is pretty much a new template in less than a month with 15 people working on it, but what you have to remember is that the more people you have working on something, the more strict you have to be about coding standards. Each have their prefered approach, so if there are no standards, it just becomes a clusterf**k, just like the current Atum template SCSS is.

It will also make maintaing the template in the future much harder.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by kawshar » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:49 pm

@Lodder we are working on the https://github.com/kawshar/backend-temp ... evelopment branch. We are trying to follow the current coding standards. But, we will review all SCSS code later. Also, if you have some guidelines for us then will be really helpful.

We are trying to code keeping maintenance in mind. But, there is always something to improve. Maybe a little help from you will help a lot.

Thanks

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:58 pm

An observation ... this reminds me of Brexit. Different factions pulling in different directions and none doing what the majority want. Can we have some sort of uniformity that that does not exclude anyone please?
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by brian » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:44 pm

@kashwar everything I have seen so far in your repo is nothing to do with a template. Its a lot of bad code to replace existing bad code which if you actually contributed or checked on github you would have known and saved yourselves a LOT of time. Stick to what you said you were creating - a template. Find a bug in the code - report it or submit a fix.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by kawshar » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:06 pm

@brian, can you point out some bad code examples? As I informed before, we are following the existing coding standards from the Autum template. It will be really useful if you point out some examples.

Thanks

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Lodder » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:32 am

@kawshar

1. Missing aria attributes on several elements
2. Hard coded SCSS colours and other common property values
3. No use of functions or mixins in the SCSS
4. Hard coded words instead of language constants
5. No coding standards in the PHP
6. No coding standards in the SCSS
7. No coding standards in the JS
8. Inline styling used
9. Web components in the wrong repo
10. Breadcrumbs web component prone to XSS attacks
11. No use of Shadow DOM or Templates for web components

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by kawshar » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:16 am

@Lodder
Thank you for pointing out those issues. It will help a lot. Right now we are a very early stage and as I told before we will review everything very carefully. However, after a week if you think we are going in the right direction then you may kind enough to help us as an advisor.

About the web components repo, could you please let me know the right one?

And, really thank you.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:03 am

kawshar wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:16 am
...
Thank you for pointing out those issues. It will help a lot. Right now we are a very early stage ...
That is no reason to hard code where variables should be.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by kawshar » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:17 am

@Webdongle
Early stage, sir. Code will be more optimized and smart from next week.

Thanks

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:37 pm

kawshar wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:17 am
...
Early stage, sir. Code will be more optimized and smart from next week.
...
should not be hard coded at the start.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:27 pm

Why simply skinning what already exist ?
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by brian » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:35 pm

@kawshar as lodder said you are clearly not writing code following the coding standards. For me the biggest issue is that you are not creating a template but rewriting the admin. That will mean it can never be used as a template.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by kawshar » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:59 pm

@brian, we got the idea. Code will be alright by next week. Be sure about that. The files we are working with actually almost all are layouts. That means we can override them from the template folder.

Thanks

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by H13 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:15 pm

Webdongle wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:37 pm
kawshar wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:17 am
...
Early stage, sir. Code will be more optimized and smart from next week.
...
should not be hard coded at the start.
It doesn't have to be that bad, it's one of many kinds of development process.

For example: at the beginning of development, you simply ignore all variables just to get a complete look at what the resulting work will look like. So this means, you don't use SCSS variables, you don't use language variables, even you don't use coding standards. You just use constants and fixed values to see the result. When you are satisfied with the result, then you switch to a functional phase - substituting constants and fixed values for variables, code cleaning, rewriting it to fit coding standards, etc.

As always, the process is not so important as the result.

BTW: More Joomla! Admin Templates

I like the way as operating systems do with default browser. There can be installation window where user can select administation template. There can be one default and others which will be approved by community and which will be installed like external extensions if user select them. If such template will be not more maintained by developer, it will be just deleted from the menu.

So:
- there will be still one template in core
- only one template will be maintained by core developers
- even users select external admin template they can easily switch to default back
- core package will not include such template code

Image
- Phoca Gallery - powerful image gallery - http://www.phoca.cz/phocagallery/
- Phoca Restaurant Menu - http://www.phoca.cz/restaurantmenudemo/
- Phoca Cart - e-commerce platform for Joomla!
- Phoca Download - download manager for Joomla!

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:35 pm

Again why changing what is actually in Alpha 11, the overall functionality is good, only the design need a bit of love.

• Joomla 4 Alpha 11 administrative template - Dashboard
Dashboard.jpg

• Rapid re-skinning of the same interface
(I calculate around 5 hours of work on the actual template, not to much more...)
Dashboard-02.jpg
Modified:
— I put the right warm color (This is where people work after all...)
— Take out that hideous white top menu
— Homogenize the main buttons and their presentation in the dashboard
All same size, all can have an action (+) button if needed), you can add/remove them to your liking.
— Fixed that Sample Data with Warnings and links the way it should be (All my site are multilinguals & have a blog)
— Add Joomla links at bottom left
— Make that Add Dashboard module a bit more present (Background darker)

Please, feedback from Joomla dev’s and users will be great.

My only goal here is to show what can be done rapidly with what is already there.
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