About the design of the administration? Topic is solved

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:10 pm

To waarnemer asking
@Chacapamac can you point me to that github issue?
I mostly contact people directly and by 2 issues
• Login Design Reloaded ! — https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/issues/22839
• Multilingual Sample Data Install by Joomla administration - No close or hide button & second position in Sample Data — https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/issues/23028

I know its late buy I open a NEW ISSUE only about the design of Joomla 4 administration here;

Fix to Administration UI UX & overall design of Joomla 4 backend templatehttps://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/issues/25087

I finally find the original discussion “Closed” about the design on github here —> This is the original discussion Joomla 4 Backend Design Reloaded — https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/issues/24380
Last edited by Chacapamac on Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:14 pm

to erick-b » Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:46 am
I see no other solution than to make my own admin template, this one is absurd and unusable
I agree with you, but this is what I will have to do to continue use Joomla, sadly...
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:27 pm

Perhaps https://www.phoca.cz/joomla-templates might develop a free J4 Admin Template?
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:39 pm

The main (left hand menu) has the chevrons pointing the wrong way and no link for Modules.
The way the menu operates is imho a mess.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:20 pm

Maybe some light at the end of the tunnel, a comment from Brian Teeman on my github issue —> https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/issues/25087

I quote from Brian:
PLEASE look at the work being done in the dedicated admin template repo where you can see all the work being done on the template and you will see that it is VERY different to the one here in the current alpha.

https://github.com/joomla/backend-template (use the releases branch)

Any comments you have etc should be made their and not here and because this post doesn't reflect the current state of that template I am asking @franz-wohlkoenig to close this

“VERY different to the one here in the current alpha”, I’m excited, saddly it seem that you need to setup a “local environment” to be able to uses theses “Releases branch”

After looking at the Joomla information to setup a local environment:
https://docs.joomla.org/Special:MyLangu ... nvironment

I’m not really sure, how to proceed on my local MAMP Server ???
I’m a bit scare to messed it up, this is my work environment...
Anybody know how to proceed with MAMP and if its safe to my actual work environment to implement it?

I will love to see some screenshots....
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:59 pm

Unfortunately many ordinary users are excluded from testing the new Template because of needing to use specific software. Creating a localhost and unpacking/installing a zip is one thing ... but having to download Composer and node.js (to compile the files) is a step to far for ordinary users. How do the devs expect ordinary user to have input to new versions? The testing of new features is becoming more elitist and more and more excludes the ordinary user.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by gws » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:45 pm

@webdongle +1

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:39 pm

This is the step by step that I will try soon to see if it work:

Make Joomla environment
• Download the release branch of this repository
• Unzip in the folder where you want to install it
• Run composer install in that folder
• Run npm i in that folder
• Open the URL to the folder in a browser and run through installation.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:22 pm

I have been told by a dev that the J4 Template development has been made deliberately difficult to prevent the average user to see it. It has been done that way because the devs did not like criticism.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by toivo » Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:44 pm

Sounds like only Full Stack Developers can continue tinkering with Joomla templates. Note to self: learn composer, npm, docker etc.

Webdongle wrote:It has been done that way because the devs did not like criticism.
That must be "fake news". Feedback is an essential part of the QA/QC process and it should not be interpreted as criticism.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:46 pm

toivo wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:44 pm
...
That must be "fake news". Feedback is an essential part of the QA/QC process and it should not be interpreted as criticism.
Well that was what I was told by a dev
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by webdevtim » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:52 pm

I agree with Chacapamac as well. The UI is what sells the CMS and if the UI is wrong, then regardless of how technically superior the underlying CMS might be, it won't be adopted.

We have CSS Grids now, this should be used in the administrator template as well as for the Cassiopeia template.

This is because CSS Grids allows us to rearrange elements on a page to optimize the space for each device that loads that page. With CSS Grids there is no reason that someone couldn't manage a Joomla installation from their iPhone.

By contrast, Bootstrap 4.x now seems clunky in comparison.

Here is an example of what I did with the old Protostar Template and will now re-do the Casseopia template in similar fashion.

http://www.lc4911-dev.org

username: guest
password: thisIS4GUESTS!

I will only make this account available for a few days.

The CSS is pretty simple:

Code: Select all

.main-content-container {
	align-content: stretch;
	background-color: transparent;
	display: grid;
	grid-gap: 20px;
	grid-template-columns: repeat(12, 1fr);
	grid-template-rows: auto auto auto;
	min-height: 560px;
	justify-items: center;
	justify-content: space-around;
	padding: 20px;
}

#left-panel-container {
	grid-area: 1 / 1 / span 2 / span 3;
}
#content {
	grid-area: 1 / 4 / -1 / span 6;
	width: 100%;
}
#right-panel-container {
	grid-area: 1 / 10 / span 2 / span 3;
}
And then for anything less than 768 pixels wide I make the following simple changes

Code: Select all

@media (max-width: 768px) {
	#left-panel-container {
		grid-area: 2 / 1 / span 1 / span 12;
		max-width: 400px;
	}
	#content {
		grid-area: 1 / 1 / span 1 / span 12
	}
	#right-panel-container {
		grid-area: 3 / 1 / span 1 / span 12;
		max-width: 400px;
	}
}
I could use the shortcuts for grid-area to save character counts, but using the span notation makes it more immediately obvious what area of the container the elements occupy.

Again, Joomla needs to recapture market share and the way it will do that is by having a UI that is the envy of everyone currently using Drupal and WordPress.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:53 pm

Pretty Cool stuff “ webdevtim”.
Saddly, I didnt, so far, create that Joomla environment to see the newer administration.

As you can see, not having a normal version to download and easily experiment with, Joomla devs loose the feedback from a lot of people. At least
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:59 pm

Chacapamac wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:53 pm
...
As you can see, not having a normal version to download and easily experiment with, Joomla devs loose the feedback from a lot of people. At least
Yes and I was told by a dev that was deliberate to stop negative feedback.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by toivo » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:04 pm

Chacapamac wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:39 pm
This is the step by step that I will try soon to see if it work:

Make Joomla environment
• Download the release branch of this repository
• Unzip in the folder where you want to install it
• Run composer install in that folder
• Run npm i in that folder
• Open the URL to the folder in a browser and run through installation.
Just installed composer, node.js with npm and git on Windows 10, downloaded the release branch from https://github.com/joomla/backend-template, followed the above instructions by @Chapamac and installed Joomla 4 with the back end template.

First impression: the Home Dashboard looks considerably clearer to use than the current back end in the alpha 10 dev version from the nightly builds.
joomla4-backend-new.png
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Last edited by toivo on Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: screenshot
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by webdevtim » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:42 pm

Thanks all, I will install that back end template as well.

CSS Grids allows us to arrange blocks, such that we can stack them in any order we want, for each class of display, so that the back-end template looks good on iPhones as well as large 4K displays. We should be using CSS Grids now and weening ourselves from Bootstrap. The Flexbox model isn't for layout, CSS Grids is.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by toivo » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:50 pm

Webdongle wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:59 pm
Unfortunately many ordinary users are excluded from testing the new Template because of needing to use specific software. Creating a localhost and unpacking/installing a zip is one thing ... but having to download Composer and node.js (to compile the files) is a step to far for ordinary users. How do the devs expect ordinary user to have input to new versions? The testing of new features is becoming more elitist and more and more excludes the ordinary user.
Quite right. My Joomla 4 alpha 10 dev folder contains only 6900 files and takes 58MB. The test site of the back end template generated 57000 files and took 492MB. What if something goes wrong, are we expected to use git to install a new version or start the test site from scratch? It would be so much simpler to install a template as an extension.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by mbabker » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:34 am

I'll come out of self imposed exile to comment on two bits here.
Webdongle wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:22 pm
I have been told by a dev that the J4 Template development has been made deliberately difficult to prevent the average user to see it. It has been done that way because the devs did not like criticism.
The development deliberately started in a closed access, invite only repository, because a number of people wanted to make sure that neither Brian Teeman nor myself could comment on any aspect of their work, and I do feel it is because we are rather blunt in our reviews (sometimes critical or downright negative). I make it known quite well when I disagree with a direction, either as a concept or as an actual code implementation, and there is a lot that has happened in J4 that I don't really agree with in full, but so be it. Part of the reason my involvement with the project is minimal at best these days is because this disagreement in direction has gotten to the point I can no longer sanely contribute on a day-to-day basis because I'm just becoming an even more miserable person the longer I hang around.
toivo wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:44 pm
Sounds like only Full Stack Developers can continue tinkering with Joomla templates. Note to self: learn composer, npm, docker etc.
Yes, Composer and NPM are required tools to work with Joomla from the git repository. These are tools that are pretty standard for a wide variety of PHP or frontend oriented projects these days. Most compiled resources and external dependencies are no longer checked into the CMS' git repo (IMO a step that was taken prematurely because a lot of workflow steps have not been sorted out to properly manage this for the release packages, among other things), so you need those tools to get a fully functional development environment. Also, if you're doing frontend work and using any kind of CSS or JavaScript compiler (LESS to CSS (and no, the lessc PHP library in Joomla 3.x doesn't count because it's beyond FUBAR, and I won't even test any SCSS compilers), SCSS to CSS, compiling JavaScript written with newer features so that it is compatible with older browsers), odds are you're using something that has come out of the Node ecosystem. Joomla core development has kept use of these tools away from the masses for the most part, but in all honesty if you're doing anything in PHP that isn't Joomla or WordPress you're probably using Composer, and if you're doing frontend work you probably aren't 100% writing CSS or JavaScript from scratch and using some kind of compile tool and/or dependency manager and that's where NPM comes into play. So yes, it raises the bar a bit if you're working in the most purest of development environments, but these are also tools that you really should have a basic familiarity with in general.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:52 am

So it is a combination of a few devs hijacking the development project and the need for coding to be more complex.

Nothing much can be done about the latter but should something be done about the former?
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by waarnemer » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:55 am

Sorry to hear... but imho the politics should be separated from the actual product. Since a lot of people seem unhappy with the current development, My call to the current board is to call off the team behind the back end development before we have a back end that nobody wants to work with. Ending up in a CMS nobody wants to work with.

Before they continue they need to look closer at the requirements and desires from the market.

And it would be much easier without all this composer stuff if I can just clone the github repository straight into my J! laboratory
Last edited by toivo on Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: typo

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by gws » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:05 am

@waarnemer totally agree. Seems like history repeating itself.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:38 pm

Now people start believing me.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by mbabker » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:31 pm

waarnemer wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:55 am
And it would be much easier without all this composer stuff if I can just clone the github repository straight into my J! laboratory
Yes, it would. However, this goes against accepted development practices and the fact Joomla is doing it in 3.x doesn't make it right at all. It's a huge leap forward going from having a git repository one could clone and just start running to having a git repository where one has to take some extra steps, but these are normal development practices pretty much everywhere that isn't Joomla (even WordPress if you clone their primary git or SVN repository has a build step that requires NPM). So it is not like Joomla is setting unreasonable expectations or even using niche things (NPM and Composer are both mature tools that have been deeply rooted in most development workflows for over 5 years), but if you're looking for a simple "just clone and run" git repo then Joomla 4.0 and any of its ongoing projects aren't for you and you should rely on pre-built release packages which don't require these tools (and if someone asked, I could set up the CI system that delivers the nightly builds to https://developer.joomla.org/nightly-builds.html to include builds for any ongoing project (GSoC projects each year, backend template, etc.) or to do what we did with the privacy tool suite going into 3.9 and have downloads built each time the source branch is committed to; the point here is there are ways to make things available for those who cannot or will not use NPM and Composer but nobody wants to take the time and effort to make ongoing development projects accessible to users and I'm not going out of my way to do things for the project on my own accord anymore because these days I just get burned for my time and effort).

Yes, that may seem a little blunt and offputting, but the reality of it is Joomla is quite behind the times as it comes to embracing modern development tooling, and there are things that just cannot be done at all if the Joomla 3.x repository structure is maintained (that is, everything checked into the repository in the location it will be in the production package as far as filesystem structure goes). The current workflow for Joomla 3 as far as UI assets goes requires either hand-built and maintained CSS files or LESS files that get run through a compiler which generates massively broken CSS (the lessc PHP compiler that is used for core in 3.x cannot properly parse the Bootstrap 2 grid, amongst other things) which requires manually maintaining a list of browser specific rulesets, and JavaScript that is hand written to the lowest common denominator since there is no compiler in use (so all JavaScript has to be manually reviewed for IE8 compatibility). The workflow in Joomla 4 allows JavaScript to be written with new features in mind and runs it through a compiler that ensures the resulting files that Joomla actually uses are compatible with the browsers that it claims to support, and for the SCSS files there are tools that can be used to automatically set browser specific CSS modifications and the resulting output isn't one that is totally FUBAR. Yes, that means there is more complex tooling needed, but please understand the aim of this tooling is to actually make people's jobs easier and enable Joomla to deliver a more robust set of UI assets and that it's not just change for the sake of change to make the project one that only the elitists can use or contribute to (IMO that's happening for other reasons, but the use of NPM or Composer aren't the sole reasons for that).

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:57 pm

With more and more complexity with developing will that eventually lead to less and less people developing?
And if so what affect (if any) will it have on Joomla being free to use?
Will there (in the near future) be two versions of Joomla ... one free but with limited features and one commercial with full features?
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by toivo » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:37 pm

@mbabker, thank you very much for the comprehensive explanation. The web environment and browsers change at increasing pace and therefore it is perfectly logical to automate the builds.

Hopefully someone will ask you to include also the back end template in the builds, so that Joomla users and PHP developers like me with very limited "full-stack" experience can also access the back end previews with relative ease.

BTW, in the single-digit global market share of Internet Explorer, the popularity of IE8 must be almost zero. Is it still necessary to support IE8?
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:00 pm

toivo wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:37 pm
...
Hopefully someone will ask you to include also the back end template in the builds, so that Joomla users and PHP developers like me with very limited "full-stack" experience can also access the back end previews with relative ease. ...
That question was asked in the 'cms release team' glip chat ... the devs (not @mbabker) gave a categoric NO !!! It was after that I was given the reason as being the devs didn't want negative feedback.

It is much like a hierarchical snobbery where ordinary users are treated with disdain.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by webdevtim » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:52 pm

Of course in the Drupal environment there is a host of development tools that are necessary to be familiar with, like Drush, command line and scripting interface, Drupal Command Line Interface, Druml for managing multiple sites with one code base, Drupal Command Line Code Generator, and of course Composer and Node.js/NPM. I would assume that Joomla needs to follow suite. Using the command-line is sooo much faster.

I don't see how anyone can work for free, however. Maybe there was a time in the United States when the United States was so flush with money that people could conceivably work for free because their basic creature requirements were satisfied by default. But I don't think people in the United States or anywhere in the world can do that any more and remain competitive. Perhaps there should be a basic free version of Joomla and then and advanced paid version. I would think the core development team needs more resources than they are currently getting to continue to crank out works of brilliance. I have been in the non-profit sector for 8 years now and I have learned that the successful non-profits generate tens of millions of dollars annually and have a sizable staff that are paid according to industry standards. I don't know how Joomla can generate tens of millions of dollars annually other than charging a nominal fee for the software. Donations for a CMS just isn't a priority for the majority of people. There are 2.3 million websites in the world that use Joomla, a nominal fee of say $10.00 could conceivably make 20 million dollars available to the core development team. You won't challenge Google with that budget, but at least you could stay in the game. We don't want to make it about money, but at the same time, we all have to eat and have a roof over our heads and somewhere to plug in our computer.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:59 pm

The way it used to work was ... devs created the code for free and the users provided free testing. But if the devs want to do their own testing and charge then they will get no (or little) help from the community. The relationship between the devs and the community has stretched to breaking point. The combination of more sophisticated techniques and the superior attitude of (many) devs is killing Joomla. Perhaps Joomla has out grown itself because of more and more features being added?
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by webdevtim » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:47 am

OK, then I don't understand Joomla as an organization.

How does it get funded?

Who are the core developers and how are they related to Joomla or the Joomla community.

I think we should be helping those that don't understand composer, node.js/NPM, SCSS, etc, learn why they are important and why using the command line and command line tools makes development work so much faster.

CSS Grids makes layout so incredibly more simple that I think even my grand mother could do it, so there is one instance, at least for layout, where the code has actually become simpler rather than more complex, unlike Bootstrap 4.x. Granted, Bootstrap has a lot of built-in iQuery coolness, but does the coolness justify the level of complexity that Bootstrap represents, or would it be better to add the jQuery directly to certain classes. like for drop-downs?

As far as the core team being estranged from the Joomla community, I would like to observe that most commercial software in the past went through Alpha and Beta testing programs, where selected users would participate in those programs. Perhaps that would work for the core team, as well, so that they are not working in a bubble and do in fact get some feedback, so that the resultant releases are embraced by the Joomla community. Still the core development team needs to be paid so that Joomla can attract some of the best talent in the industry, not just those that choose to do this in their spare time on the weekend.

Forgot to post this earlier:

I was complaining about lack of support to CSS Grids. I just got through wading through the nearly 14,000 lines of CSS for the Cassiopeia template and I see that there is some support for CSS Grids, though more like an afterthought rather than the main design empphasis.
Last edited by webdevtim on Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Chacapamac
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:48 am

Look at the fantastic result of that leap to the future of development ????????
joomla4-backend.png
Are you serious people ?, this design & interface ergonomic of our beloved Joomla is the ugliest and unfriendly of all, so far. The quality is even lower than before.

Nobody and surely not me will present something like this to their clients...
This is simply ugly, cold, unfriendly and amateurish. I do no think you can do worst even if you try hard guys.

Really, really sad!

waarnemer say it all
Since a lot of people seem unhappy with the current development, My call to the current board is to call off the team behind the back end development before we have a back end that nobody wants to work with. Ending up in a CMS nobody wants to work with.
There you go, this what I see here...
After being around from the time of Joomla 1.0, for me, it’s time to move to another CMS.

Sorry Guys but I have no words. This is absolutely not acceptable.
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