About the design of the administration?

[webdevtim]

Why doesn't someone from the community write a better admin template, and present that to the board for comparison?

Perhaps something like the following is preferable: https://www.joomlart.com/joomla/templates/ja-admin



Even this has problems, all panel should have the same height, none of the headings should wrap.

Again, this is where CSS Grids is indispensable.

[waarnemer]

@webdevtim... if you want to compare Joomla project to the "competition". This project is NOT backed by multimilion dollar, commercial operating, companies. WP is, Drupal in a way is..

It is community driven in its purest way.

@all,

That is why I think the accessibility to the code should be as simple as possible.
The fact that composer is sort of common with developers is fine, but the testers are not (always) the developers.
To me it just seems we need to add an extra step in our workflow to be able to do exactly what we did before. Any other business would call that inefficient.

What is next? Make a release only installable by using composer? That would rule out almost all on a shared hosting.

We test as if it was a real situation to see if the product has bugs or does not meet requirements.

From experience, if you do not involve the users in your development during development process, you end up in a situation where indeed the developers created exactly according to the requirements, but no user likes it. Surgery was a success, patient died...

@webdongle is right.. if you do not allow your users to test, you will not receive feedback, project will die.
Currently the power of Joomla! community is that anyone can participate. Keep it that way.

[waarnemer]

It is not just about the template. but the design in general... when i check the new j4, I could not find my usual items in the navigation.. just creating another template isn't doing it here.

For all I care the looks of the template is fine (but for some colors, and maybe some style corrections).. what I don't like is the complete shake up of the navigation. Modules in tab content? Why? Plugins in system settings not in extensions? Why? Why am I forced to a left screen navigation? Why? Missing consistency between navigation and displayed in content screen. ie. the navigation on users is not consistent with the module on the System page...

So the comments on the process would not only be the code but the way the back end is designed in general.


I have some sites that have teamps of people working on it. I am not looking forward to plan sessions to explain them where to find their stuff in the future. My authors all work in the back end (ACL in J! is superb) so they can concentrate on their content.

[Webdongle]

Why doesn't someone from the community write a better admin template, and present that to the board for comparison?...

Probably because the devs would almost certainly reject ant input from anyone that think are beneath them. So nobody wants to spend time doing something that won't be used. I just hope that https://www.phoca.cz/joomla-templates start doing an admin Template for J4

[Chacapamac]

For me, I’m stopping all my Joomla 4 testing and looking for the best CMS alternative.

[webdevtim]

@webdevtim... if you want to compare Joomla project to the "competition". This project is NOT backed by multimilion dollar, commercial operating, companies. WP is, Drupal in a way is..

Joomla needs some kind of business model, not just community contributions. Mozilla manages on donations, why can't Joomla. Mozilla is taking on the Google beast and doing a pretty good job of holding their own. Perhaps Joomla can take some instruction from what Mozilla is doing right. We need a full time core development team that is paid salaries commensurate with industry; period.

Currently the power of Joomla! community is that anyone can participate. Keep it that way.

Yes the Joomla Community needs to be involved, but as I said previously, maybe that would be better facilitated by a beta tester program, where testers are chosen based on their understanding of Joomla, so that "meaningful" feedback can be provided. Anyone can participate at some level, but when you are trying to get the next major release of the CMS out before the ice caps melt, then you need to have feedback from qualified people within the Joomla Community. I think part of the problem is that you are hailing from an age that no longer exists, when the Internet was still young and anything was possible; today Google, Amazon and Facebook are consolidating all internet activity into a few organizations. I hope that trend gets reversed at some point. I agree that if you completely shut out the community, however, then your CMS will die on the vine.

It is not just about the template. but the design in general... when i check the new j4, I could not find my usual items in the navigation.. just creating another template isn't doing it here.

Two things that should be important here. 1. attracting WordPress users to Joomla, and 2. making it so that existing Joomla users aren't completely at a loss when trying to locate things like modules and plugins that used to be in locations familiar to them. True, modules live in that space somewhere between Content and an Extension, but most modules are developed by third parties and therefore would be an extension, not content. I really saw nothing wrong with "System," "Users," "Menus," "Content," "Components," "Extensions," "Help." These could be in the left hand panel so they are more familiar to WordPress users, but I think that there could be an option to have them displayed as a top navigation bar as well, to keep existing Joomla users comfortable; don't want to lose your existing 6% base when trying to attract the 60%ers.

I already see Joomla fading from the Internet when a Contact Management System like CiviCRM makes Drupal and WordPress a priority but not Joomla. Yes there is a version of CiviCRM available for Joomla, but if you go to their MattersMost chat room, you will see tons of activity for the Drupal room and the WordPress room, but for the Joomla room, maybe a few entries a week and that is it.

The dev team needs to reverse that trend with the release of Joomla 4. If they fail to capture the imagination of the market, then Joomla will go the way of Netscape. That is a tall order for a team operating without a budget.

[waarnemer]

About beta testers... Since it is open source, everyone is qualified. Period.
We should not attract WP users because WP has the market. That will not change. We should attract people that want a quality and scalable CMS that is Enterprise ready.. something that is not done by making it look like WP..
To say it follows netscape is something I hear for ages...

Compare this to a proprietary CMS like AEM, It has not even a 1% market, but there is a huge amount of money going around there.. maybe even more than in this 60% CMS marketshare of WP. We do not need to fish in the same pond. I don't care too much about CiviCRM having less joomla comments and posts.. Maybe that is because it works without having to ask questions...

Provide quality. Quality will bring the customers.

Ending with us... the testers... if we can test, we can guard the quality. Simply because we know the customers we build sites for. Experienced testers may become developers.

[webdevtim]

Thank you for your well reasoned response.

OK, I like Open Source, I want to see Open Source succeed. I see Open Source as the democratic approach to development.

I see WordPress gaining market share and I fear that if or when WordPress gains 100% of the market share, Open Source ceases to exist; so maybe I am over reacting.

I like CiviCRM, a powerful, Open Source Contact Management System, that integrates with the three major CMSs, Joomla, Drupal and WordPress. There are just as many issues that arise with CiviCRM installed on Joomla as there are for WordPress or Drupal, there just isn't the number of responses of suggested solutions as there are on the Drupal and WordPress sides. That concerns me. Maybe you think Facebook, Instagram, What's App, etc., are the way people should connect, I don't think so, I think Opens Source is the way people should connect so that we can see what the hell is being done with the data and so that we can create novel and perhaps more productive ways for people to connect.

Perhaps I am fearing the monopolization of the CMS world, so that the last bastion of free expression can be controlled like main stream television is controlled. Perhaps that is why I fear market share or lack thereof.

I agree that we want quality in a CMS, quality in both the presentation of that data and the operations on the data and that quality should sell the product. Let me just say that isn't how Facebook works, they sell their product by getting people hooked on it using psychological methods that exploit human vulnerabilities. This is unfortunate, because instead of people judging a product on it's capabilities, they judge on it's sex appeal instead. That is why we need a great default front end template and a great back end template, because the technical prowess of Joomla isn't what will sell it, it will be how it looks at first glance. That is the society we live in now and we have to confront that fact.

I love Joomla, and I want to see it flourish. I know other developers that I respect, like Fotis Evangelou and Nicholas Dionysopoulos, have told to me that Joomla is a "Great CMS," even though they had their ideas on how Joomla could be better.

I disagree about the beta testers, however, I am not sure what democratic structure could be put in place to make sure that we get a range of beta testers that represent a full spectrum of the Joomla community. Maybe there can be major alpha and beta releases that are provided to everyone for consideration, but minor alpha and beta releases which are only provided to designated beta testers for more technical feedback to the developers.

We need to compete in a world where monopolies are gobbling up everything in sight.

[Webdongle]

Betas are released https://developer.joomla.org/nightly-builds.html
You can also change the update channel in the Joomla update component to test updates when an update path is available.

[Chacapamac]

WP is a crappy blog tool, with a lot of crappy extensions. Don’t get me going with that, I know. I maintain some WP sites for friends and some non-profit organisations, a real nightmare.

The quality of Joomla and all is extensions today is lightyear ahead of WP. Even WP aficionados are fed up of breaking and hack sites and the total lack of flexibility and overall quality of this platform.

Back in the days, Joomla 1.5 was not to far behind WP in popularity (and was already better). Sadly the update process from Joomla 1.5 was rough, even if each new Joomla brings a lot of amelioration after that, these difficult times send away a lot of sites developers to the only other choice WP and they never look back.

In 2019, Joomla 4 have the chance, I believe, to be the best CMS available on the planet. It’s simple, this can be the version that will permit Joomla to regain the top of the podium.

Even being the best CMS out there, I predict that if Joomla 4 is release with that farce of administration design & disastrous ergonomic it will simply kill definitively this CMS. Joomla 4 is the ONLY chance for a future for this CMS, please don't blow it.
I think I talk in the name of the community.

I personally ask, from my heart, please, do not release Joomla 4 like this, that will be a grave mistake. You have enough input just in this thread to revise your direction.

I Quote Myself.

You can have the best CMS ever (What Joomla 4 is ) but if a newcomer get lost in a second class interface design it will negate all effort and will SYMPLY NOT BE USED by developer and first time users.

[webdevtim]

Thanks Webdongle, my test version of Joomla 4 is up to date, guess no nightly build today.

Thanks Chacapamac for your heart felt plea. I hope it is considered. The Open Source community has to succeed, the alternative is pretty ugly.

[Chacapamac]

This is inspired by a design presented by Joomlashack as the official one in August 2017.
Ref. https://www.joomlashack.com/blog/tutori ... -joomla-4/

What Happen?

I’m just dreaming of what success Joomla 4 can become if the developers was listening to the community.

joomla-4-back-end-2.png

The actual (following image) interface will simply Kill Joomla for Good.

joomla4-backend.png

Everybody that love Joomla, please, flood this forum to take back their preferred CMS before it is to late.

[Webdongle]

Strange thing is Joomla 4 now looks like a fork of elxis cms current version. Incidentally elxis admin looks like your first image. It is almost like Joomla devs are copying elxis but have yet to catch up with their admin Template. I stress that the J4 version (which is not yet released) is behind the current release of elxis.

[webdevtim]

I think the dev team should adopt Chacapamac 's version of the admin panel as is. That is a great design.

Here is the Elxis 5 Admin panel, and Chacapamac's is far superior, are you listening Joomla Core???:



Perhaps add stats below the fold Chacapamac. Ease of access is key to an admin panel.

[Webdongle]

Still begs the question ... why is Elxis's current Admin panel far in advance of the yet to be released J4?

[webdevtim]

That is the million dollar question, isn't it. I am going to have to do what I have to do to keep a roof over my head, so I will have to develop with CMS's that people want, not what I had hoped for.

But let's put those thoughts aside for now and just build on what Chacapamac has proposed here. Really what he is doing should be adopted by the core team. I can also suggest that a second row of icons/panels at the top would allow for quick access to more Joomla features without making the design too busy.

I also think that the Elxir 5 admin panel is trying to crowd too much in and doesn't focus the eye like it should.

Chacapamac, I don't know what you used for layout, but using CSS Grids here would really make a difference, because that design can adapt to any display device, be it iPhone or 8k 40" monitor. Perhaps a combination of CSS Grids and CSS Flexbox would really nail it. CSS Grids when you know the number of elements that will be displayed and where you want them placed on the screen and Flexbox when you don't know the number of elements that will be displayed and only want them ordered in some consistent way.

[Chacapamac]

I always use Photoshop only to create prototype. For me it’s always design first, code after.

It’s interesting that that “Elxis 5.0 Uranus” administration look a bit similar to what I did. I didn’t know of that Elxis CMS.

It look similar because somebody take the time to think about a clear & logical interface. I see some interesting details in there. Just a remark, look at their main blue background color, it’s a darker (mix with black), colder blue than what I use for my exemple and, surprise, It make their admin exactly like the color use, murkier and cold.

One thing I know, it will be important to render Joomla administration flexible to customization to permit adapted interface for different type of users and sites. Like Joomlart admin template for Joomla —> https://www.joomlart.com/joomla/templates/ja-admin.

If I have time, I will redo another example

[webdevtim]

I saw the Joomlart template before, not terribly impressed with it.

I liked the layout you presented, I would like to see you expand on that idea with perhaps another row of quick access icons, and maybe include an analytics panel.

If you have time that is.

With CSS Grids, it is easy to move element blocks around.

[jonBuckner1]

Perhaps a combination of CSS Grids and CSS Flexbox would really nail it. CSS Grids when you know the number of elements that will be displayed and where you want them placed on the screen and Flexbox when you don't know the number of elements that will be displayed and only want them ordered in some consistent way.

I read somewhere:
css grids for structure of layout.
flex for content within layout
I think flex can be a pain in the ar$& for layout

would mixing them together be confusing?

[Chacapamac]

I liked the layout you presented, I would like to see you expand on that idea with perhaps another row of quick access icons, and maybe include an analytics panel.

You absolutely right, seeing the Elxis example, I think we can add row of button for rapid access of important functions in a nice way, I also like the inner page buttons & action links color scheme.

I will try to give it a go.

[mbabker]

Before anyone starts investing too much time into re-imagining the design of one page, please take a step back and realize the template is a lot more than the dashboard. A lot of the issues in this thread seem to be using the dashboard as examples of what is good and bad, but realize that the core CMS ships an interface with 3 generalized layouts (dashboard, list view, and edit view) and a handful of more specialized layouts (i.e. the Install from Web interface, the user debug views (they're list views but not in the conventional sense of the term as it relates to Joomla), or the system information page as examples). So if you're going to start a competing focus on yet-another-J4-template (which, honestly, I'd rather someone not do; what's in the current alpha is the 2nd version of a template, what the "design team" is doing is the 3rd version, and frankly I don't think the software can wait another 2 years for a 4th version of the administrative interface to be designed and implemented), please remember that your design changes to one page are going to impact the entire admin UI and that the admin UI is much more than the first page you hit after logging in.

Also, don't repeat the mistakes of the last 2 years and build a design that has a very narrow vision that focuses on only what you want in Joomla while ignoring the rest of how Joomla has been built and functions for the last 15 years (and no, I'm not trying to be funny on this one, the work in the current template repo has had to be scrutinized to get core features restored because people want to just rip things apart and rebuild it in their vision without any thought for the features that exist now and are used by developers to extend the interface). Also, focus only on the user interface as if you start designing a template that changes functionality (as the current iteration did, the template dictated a lot of functional changes in the administrator as a whole, good and bad), you make it a lot harder to actually implement that template in a usable manner. If you're that determined to see functional changes implemented, work with a PHP developer who understands core and can help gauge the scope of work a functional change is going to bring with it.

I'm neither here to encourage or discourage anyone. It's open source, part of the license pretty much says "don't like it, hack away at it". Rather, I want people to be realistic here and not get in over their head or spend too much time focusing on details while ignoring the bigger picture, something that has happened way too much in the work on 4.0 (and yes, I too am guilty of that one).

[erick-b]

you can turn it as you like , as is the admin panel is not acceptable

[webdevtim]

I read somewhere:
css grids for structure of layout.
flex for content within layout
I think flex can be a pain in the ar$& for layout

would mixing them together be confusing?

That is correct CSS Grids is for layout and Flexbox is for uniformly arranging elements within a layout block; especially when you don't know in advance how many elements will be contained withing that layout block.

[waarnemer]

@mbabker is right.. it is not just the template...

What I don't like is the lack of consistency of the admin panel. That is something that cannot be changed by another template.

As I mentioned before:

For all I care the looks of the template is fine (but for some colors, and maybe some style corrections).. what I don't like is the complete shake up of the navigation. Modules in tab content? Why? Plugins in system settings not in extensions? Why? Why am I forced to a left screen navigation? Why? Missing consistency between navigation and displayed in content screen. ie. the navigation on users is not consistent with the module on the System page...

So working with teams of people and working with several roles and access level, with this shake up, I am afraid I have to schedule a lot of time to see if it all matches and reintroduce all team members to the new admin.

[webdevtim]

Like Chacapamac said all of these panels should have been laid out in Photoshop first, once it was determined what elements would need to be represented in each panel.

Then displaying all these mock-ups side by side across several monitors, a consistent look and feel should have been established for all panels. Once that was done then coding on the UI should have begun.

Also having the choice between left panel navigation and top navigation would have been a nice touch, however, we also have to remember that this interface has to work across the entire spectrum of devices out there. This is where I would like to emphasize, that CSS Grids is your friend, and switching between left navigation and top navigation could be as easy as swamping out grid-area definitions.

[mbabker]

CSS Grid is an implementation detail. It has nothing to do with the actual design of a template. You can build a lot of templates using the old school table method, "legacy" Bootstrap grids (3.x and earlier), Flexbox, or CSS Grid, the only difference is really going to be how well those grids let you deal with certain aspects of the layout (Flex and CSS Grid are the better tools for responsive layouts). I'm not downplaying how useful CSS Grid is, but at the end of the day it has nothing to do with actually designing a template, it's the tool you use when converting that template design into a HTML document.

Also, coding a switch between top and side navigation might be a simple thing, but there is a lot more that needs to be thought through if you are changing the menu style (i.e. number of top level menu items or the fact that most core documentation would need to demonstrate both variations of the template). It is much, much, much more than a "simple" design change. Personally, I don't get why so many people are so adamant about clinging to the top navigation bar in Joomla, I see it as a restricted menu system and a sidebar gives a lot more flexibility in general.

[webdevtim]

Frankly I don't care if it is left oriented or top oriented, that is just a style preference; drop-downs or slide outs.

Documentation is very important, so anything that makes documentation more time consuming should probably be avoided. We want good easy to understand documentation.

CSS Grids just allows for all kinds of placement of elements on a page with one set of HTML obviating the need for both a big screen template and a mobile template, as a few media queries can make that one template work on all devices. I realize this is just chrome and not template design. But it is the chrome that the end user sees.

[simbus82]

Can I say my opinion? I had a shock this morning.

I'm looking at the UI at the moment, I leave to others the decision on the UX (ie the blocks, the parts, etc. to show in the backend).

I did a deploy on my system of the release branch of https://github.com/joomla/backend-template to try and see the new UI.

Personally (and not even many other people in the community) I didn't understand if there is a design project that is being followed by https://github.com/joomla/backend-template.

The UI, now, seems 5 years old, obsolete and not satisfying.

All GRAPHIC STYLE is a step back from the graphic style proposed here https://magazine.joomla.org/item/3289-e ... la-backend

If Joomla 4 comes out at the end of 2019 or in 2020 we expect an admin of this type:
https://colorlib.com/polygon/admindek/d ... index.html

And we are not talking about an expensive solution, but i'm talk about a simple STYLE applied to the UI.

What's going on? Why does it seem that we are no longer following the design of Elisa Foltyn?

Could it be that the graphic style "revision" will be done only at the end of the work on the "features" of the admin template?

[waarnemer]

Again: it is not just the graphic design.. that we can tweak and twist ourselves if we really want to.

It is the layout of functionality the repositioning of features and functionality that worries me more than boxes, colors and font types...

whatever the color, I cannot immediately find what I need in the places I expect these to be... this means a lot of people cannot.

If it is an attempt to lure WP users to J!, stop! WP is a one man band blogging tool with a bunch of add ons that make it look like it is a CMS.
J! is enterprise ready CMS with teams of people working the same website, using ACL to group these people in to roles with different permissions...

That is why WP is popular in numbers... there are a lot of one man bands out there...
J! is ready for medium to large enterprises... That is where to aim. That is where the market is.

[gws]

@warneemer spot on.