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JAVesey
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J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by JAVesey » Sun May 31, 2020 6:24 pm

Hi all,

Quick Q: should we use the J4 Update Package to update a J4 Alpha installation or go for a clean install of the Beta using the Full Package?

TIA
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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by sozzled » Sun May 31, 2020 7:03 pm

It doesn't matter what I think. What do you think?

I know someone who is currently using J! 4 Alpha 9 in production (!), would you believe. I have no idea whether that person will be able to update their website beyond J! 4 alpha (or whether they even care). I have no idea whether the Joomla! Update component has been tested with all the alpha releases or just some of them.

I can tell you this, however: I would not try to migrate from J! 3.x to J! 4 at this time. Some helpful person wrote on this forum about a year ago
Richard67 wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:14 pm
To update a 3.9 to 4.0 Alpha 11 or current nightly build you have to use the "Upload & Update" feature of the Joomla Update Component
That was nonsense! I tried this and it completely destroyed the J! 3.9.11 test site I was using at the time. Perhaps, when J! 3.10 is released, it may be feasible but the tools we have at the moment are not up to the challenge.

It doesn't matter what I think. Everyone has their own different idea about what they intend to use J! 4 for. Some people want to keep their old J! 4 websites, maintain them (update them) for testing purposes; some people expect to use their existing J! 4 websites for production purposes; some people create a J! 4 website, test something, then throw it away.
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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by JAVesey » Sun May 31, 2020 7:12 pm

sozzled wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 7:03 pm
It doesn't matter what I think. What do you think?
Yes, I know not to use it on production sites, and yes, I know there's no upgrade path, etc, etc :laugh:

I'll rephrase the question:
Which would the devs prefer us to do:
1. Upgrade a (testing environment) J4 Alpha installation to J4 Beta used the available-for-download update package, or
2. Do a clean installation of J4 Beta using the available-for-download full package?

Yes, I know I'm assuming that the update package is built to do 1. above.

I can see advantages in both and I'm happy to try either.
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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by ceford » Sun May 31, 2020 7:25 pm

I have been updating my Alpha nightly build regularly using live update. This morning it did not work and I noticed the packages have a 2 in them rather than 1. So I did a fresh install of the new beta - a couple of minutes. And I installed the Patch Tester. I am doing some testing so I have not installed my own components or content yet. That worked fine by zip upload on Alpha so I don't expect any problems. Does that answer your question?

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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by sozzled » Sun May 31, 2020 7:47 pm

I really can't answer this question; I can offer you my opinion but it's not a question anyone can answer.

The question begs a more important question: what are people using J! 4 alpha/beta for? I tried to answer that question earlier:
sozzled wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 7:03 pm
Everyone has their own different idea about what they intend to use J! 4 for. Some people want to keep their old J! 4 websites, maintain them (update them) for testing purposes; some people expect to use their existing J! 4 websites for production purposes; some people create a J! 4 website, test something, then throw it away.
FWIW, I fall into the last-mentioned category. It takes 10 minutes to create a J! 4 website (whether it's a "nothing" website or a website created from a previous Akeeba Backup).

I really don't care what one thinks "the devs" think we should go about doing things. People have been doing whatever they want to do in spite of what other people do; if people did everything the way that other people do things then we wouldn't have this forum, would we? :laugh: For all I know, in a year or two from now, we'll probably be discussing how to migrate from J! 1.0 to J! 4.x !! :eek:
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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by JAVesey » Sun May 31, 2020 7:59 pm

ceford wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 7:25 pm
I have been updating my Alpha nightly build regularly using live update. This morning it did not work and I noticed the packages have a 2 in them rather than 1. So I did a fresh install of the new beta - a couple of minutes. And I installed the Patch Tester. I am doing some testing so I have not installed my own components or content yet. That worked fine by zip upload on Alpha so I don't expect any problems. Does that answer your question?
Kind of :laugh:

I suspect that the update --> Beta won't work but I'll try it just for the sheer fun of it!

I'll probably do a clean Beta install anyway just so it's a fair testing platform.

I've had some success on Alpha with with number of components and it won't take long to reinstall them. That's tomorrow's "lockdown when I'm not actually real work" task :laugh:
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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by Richard67 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:18 pm

Hello, sorry I am late.
You shall not update a 4 Alpha or a 4 nightly build prior to the Beta 1 to Beta 1 or later. This will very likely result in broken stuff in the database.
You can of course update a 3.10 recent nightly to 4 Beta 1, and the 3.10 can be previously having been updated from a copy of a real 3.9 live site with much data, what is good for testing.
You can also update the Beta 1 in future to any later Beta release or RC or final.
Last edited by Richard67 on Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by Richard67 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:22 pm

P.S.: Am a CMS mantainer, my previous post reflects what we concluded in our team, so it's not just my opinion. More or less that also what the release announcement says:
"To make the life of testers (and early adopters) easier, it is possible to update from the Beta version to the next Beta, RC or stable version (we will remain strict in updating the deleted files and modifying the SQL changes)."

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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by Richard67 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:24 pm

P.P.S.: Beside the database it can also be a problem that old files and folders being invented for J4 and then moved or removed during development of J4 are not in the Procedure which deletes old files and folder at the end of the update, that's another reason why pre-Beta-1 J4 shouldn't be updated to Beta 1 or later.

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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by Richard67 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:33 pm

P.P.P.S.: Regarding updating a 3.9.x to 4: Officially that's not supported. But before 3.10 development was really ready for such update tests, we could use the Upload & Update feature of the Joomla Update Component to test updates from 3.9 to 4.0. That was my comment which @sozzled referred to.

Meanwhile 3.10 development branch is ready for such tests, i.e. you can use both methods, Live Update and Upload & Update of the Joomla Update component to update a 3.9.x to the latest 3.10 nightly, and then you can update this to 4.0 Beta, also using any of the 2 methods of the Joomla Update component.

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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by sozzled » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:37 pm

Generally-speaking—based only on my observations of what happened in the past with earlier versions of J! while they were under development—"alpha" (or "beta") versions don't do well with updates. That's not to say that they don't always work; it's only to say (as a comment) that people usually have problems if they start with an alpha and then expect a beta overlaid over it to function.

If the updating works from any alpha → beta → RC → stable ... that's good (for those people who choose this approach). I will probably trash my alphas, then my betas, then my RCs as we progress through the project life-cycle. At the end (i.e. when J! 4.0.0 stable is released and J! 3.10 has settled down and I've updated my J! 3.x sites to J! 3.10), I'll see how we go migrating from J! 3.x to J! 4.x.

I can only say, from my own experience, that I started with J! 4 Alpha 12, went through (with a nightly build) to J! 4 beta1-dev and that's what shows as the "latest" available version on my test site.
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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by Richard67 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:39 pm

@sozzled It seems yo did not really read my post. You write: "If the updating works from any alpha → beta → RC → stable ... that's good". I explained it doesn't work with alpha. What we can is "beta → RC → stable", and we can ommit version, i.e. you will be able to update from Beta 1 to Beta 3.

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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by Richard67 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:41 pm

@sozzled If you really went this way since Alpha 12, your database is very likely broken at some point. Maybe you'll not notice this when not using certain exotic functions.

Update: Or maybe I missunderstood "that I started with J! 4 Alpha 12, went through (with a nightly build) to J! 4 beta1-dev"? My statement is true if you went through this chain with updating.

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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by sozzled » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:46 pm

Thanks, @Richard67. My reply related to the general question (implied in the OP's subject line) about updating from J! 4 Alpha → J! 4 Beta. I merely said that if people had no issues updating from alpha → beta → RC → stable then good for them. They're fortunate, I guess. We're not all that lucky. :)

I note that things did not work in your case. C'est la vie. Some things work (sometimes) and they don't work (at other times). Cheers. 8)
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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by brian » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:24 pm

@sozzled
Richard is on the CMS maintainer team. Richard is the superstar who has done all the database changes. If he says jump you should ask how high and not question.
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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by Richard67 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:27 pm

@brian I am not a superstar and don't wanna be one.

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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by sozzled » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:42 pm

Thanks, @Richard67. If I understand correctly, you've answered the OP's question and confirmed, in my mind, that alpha → beta is probably not a good idea. I haven't used any unusual features in my testing. It's just a vanilla-flavoured J! 4 [beta1-dev] test site; no articles, no sample blog, nothing (apart from having installed Akeeba Backup). That's all. I'll trash this site and start again with a brand new J! 4 Beta 1 test site. Thanks for the heads up. 8)
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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by mikerotec » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:39 pm

I did the live online update from j12a to the beta and it seems to have worked perfectly. :)

Now running Joomla version, ‎4.0.0-beta2-dev. Mind you, the Alpha was plain jane clean install with nothing changed or added...

PS: I do get this one complaint that utf8mb4 is not proper, though in fact all 71 tables are actually collated utf8mb4_unicode_ci
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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by Richard67 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:46 pm

mikerotec wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:39 pm
I did the live online update from j12a to the beta and it seems to have worked perfectly. :)
It seems to work perfectily, but if you export the structure only of that database and compare it with the same export of a database from a fresh installed 4.0 Beta 1 (or a later 4.0 nightly) you will see differences in structure.
mikerotec wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:39 pm
PS: I do get this one complaint that utf8mb4 is not proper, though in fact all 71 tables are actually collated utf8mb4_unicode_ci
You would not get this complaint if it was a fresh install of 4.0 Beta 1 (or a later 4.0 nightly), and you would also not get it if you had updated a 3.10 recent nightly to a 4.0 Beta 1 (or a later 4.0 nightly). You get it only because you have done what I said that it shall not be done :-P To get rid of it, use the "Update Structure" button formely (J3) called "Fix". But this will not solve other database structure differences for you, it will only make you get rid of the utf8mb4 complaint.

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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by darb » Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:04 pm

After the release of beta1 there is so much more positive engagement and hope Joomla dev team leaders also can have smaller beta releases in the future bcs thats creates exitment and as we can see of of dev log more testing, developers and 3pds interests, even new Joomla 4 videos on [youtube] from people about the new exitment of Joomla 4 beta released!
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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by wilsonge » Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:04 pm

Our aim is to make monthly releases of Joomla 4 going forwards. It's not just important to gain community hype (although obviously that's important!). But also to give extension developers regular versions with which to test their extensions above so we can have as many extensions as possible compatible with Joomla 4 at release

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Re: J4 Alpha --> Beta

Post by darb » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:04 am

Thanks George for info, its appreacitate for many people here in the forum too.

A info blog about "whatever" from you is always appreciated too and good about anything so people see that the Joomla dev community is active and progressing.

All the best!

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