Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again. Topic is solved

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Jaydot
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Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by Jaydot » Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:40 pm

Hi,
I have a site that is refusing to update to 4.2.3, giving a 500 Whoops! server error.
(The same thing happened for the update 4.2.1->4.2.2. I then updated PHP to 8, and the whole site disappeared. Set it back to 7.4.3 and it updated smoothly. Surely I'm not meant to do that again :) .)
The site was made in one of the first J!4 versions, and worked without problems upto the 4.2.2 update.

Can anyone tell from the fpa what's wrong with this site?

Thanks.
Forum Post Assistant (v1.6.5) : 4-Oct-2022 wrote:
Basic Environment :: wrote:Joomla! Instance :: Joomla! 4.2.2-Stable (Uaminifu) 2-September-2022
Joomla! Configured :: Yes | Read-Only (444) |
Configuration Options :: Offline: false | SEF: true | SEF Suffix: false | SEF ReWrite: true | .htaccess/web.config: Yes | GZip: true | Cache: true | CacheTime: 15 | CacheHandler: file | CachePlatformPrefix: false | FTP Layer: N/A | Proxy: false | LiveSite: | Session lifetime: 15 | Session handler: database | Shared sessions: false | SSL: 2 | Error Reporting: default | Site Debug: false | Language Debug: false | Default Access: Public | Unicode Slugs: false | dbConnection Type: mysqli | PHP Supports J! 4.2.2: Yes | Database Supports J! 4.2.2: Yes | Database Credentials Present: Yes |

Host Configuration :: OS: Linux | OS Version: 4.18.0-348.20.1.lve.1.el8.x86_64 | Technology: x86_64 | Web Server: Apache | Encoding: gzip, deflate, br | System TMP Writable: Yes | Free Disk Space : 2770.02 GiB |

PHP Configuration :: Version: 7.4.30 | PHP API: litespeed | Session Path Writable: Yes | Display Errors: 0 | Error Reporting: 32767 | Log Errors To: | Last Known Error: | Register Globals: | Magic Quotes: | Safe Mode: | Allow url fopen: 1 | Open Base: | Uploads: 1 | Max. Upload Size: 128M | Max. POST Size: 128M | Max. Input Time: 60 | Max. Execution Time: 30 | Memory Limit: 96M

Database Configuration :: Version: 5.5.5-10.4.26-MariaDB-cll-lve-log (Client:mysqlnd 7.4.30) | Database Size: 30.22 MiB | #of Tables with config prefix:  93 | #of other Tables:  6 | User Privileges : GRANT SELECTUser Privileges : INSERTUser Privileges : UPDATEUser Privileges : DELETEUser Privileges : CREATEUser Privileges : DROPUser Privileges : REFERENCESUser Privileges : INDEXUser Privileges : ALTERUser Privileges : CREATE TEMPORARY TABLESUser Privileges : LOCK TABLESUser Privileges : EXECUTEUser Privileges : CREATE VIEWUser Privileges : SHOW VIEWUser Privileges : CREATE ROUTINEUser Privileges : ALTER ROUTINEUser Privileges : TRIGGER
Detailed Environment :: wrote:PHP Extensions :: Core (7.4.30) | date (7.4.30) | libxml (7.4.30) | openssl (7.4.30) | pcre (7.4.30) | sqlite3 (7.4.30) | zlib (7.4.30) | bz2 (7.4.30) | calendar (7.4.30) | ctype (7.4.30) | curl (7.4.30) | hash (7.4.30) | filter (7.4.30) | ftp (7.4.30) | gettext (7.4.30) | gmp (7.4.30) | SPL (7.4.30) | iconv (7.4.30) | pcntl (7.4.30) | readline (7.4.30) | Reflection (7.4.30) | session (7.4.30) | standard (7.4.30) | shmop (7.4.30) | SimpleXML (7.4.30) | mbstring (7.4.30) | tokenizer (7.4.30) | xml (7.4.30) | litespeed () | dom (20031129) | fileinfo (7.4.30) | gd (7.4.30) | igbinary (3.2.1) | imap (7.4.30) | json (7.4.30) | exif (7.4.30) | mysqlnd (mysqlnd 7.4.30) | mysqli (7.4.30) | PDO (7.4.30) | pdo_mysql (7.4.30) | OAuth (2.0.4) | pdo_sqlite (7.4.30) | Phar (7.4.30) | posix (7.4.30) | redis (5.3.2) | soap (7.4.30) | sockets (7.4.30) | sodium (7.4.30) | uploadprogress (1.0.3.1) | xmlreader (7.4.30) | xmlrpc (7.4.30) | xmlwriter (7.4.30) | xsl (7.4.30) | zip (1.15.6) | Zend OPcache (7.4.30) | Zend Engine (3.4.0) |
Potential Missing Extensions ::
Disabled Functions :: system | exec | shell_exec | passthru | proc_get_status | proc_nice | proc_terminate | dl | popen | pcntl_exec |

Switch User Environment :: PHP CGI: No | Server SU: No | PHP SU: No | Potential Ownership Issues: No
Folder Permissions :: wrote:Core Folders :: images/ (755) | components/ (755) | modules/ (755) | plugins/ (755) | language/ (755) | templates/ (755) | cache/ (755) | logs/ (---) | tmp/ (755) | administrator/components/ (755) | administrator/modules/ (755) | administrator/language/ (755) | administrator/templates/ (755) | administrator/logs/ (755) |

Elevated Permissions (First 10) ::
Database Information :: wrote:Database statistics :: Uptime: 401226 | Threads: 105 | Questions: 522959426 | Slow queries: 125 | Opens: 2200542 | Flush tables: 1 | Open tables: 4096 | Queries per second avg: 1303.403 |
Extensions Discovered :: wrote:Components :: Site ::
Core ::
3rd Party::

Components :: Admin ::
Core :: com_tags (4.0.0) 1 | com_associations (4.0.0) 1 | com_postinstall (4.0.0) 1 | com_cache (4.0.0) 1 | com_languages (4.0.0) 1 | com_content (4.0.0) 1 | com_modules (4.0.0) 1 | com_mails (4.0.0) 1 | com_categories (4.0.0) 1 | com_messages (4.0.0) 1 | com_redirect (4.0.0) 1 | com_installer (4.0.0) 1 | com_wrapper (4.0.0) 1 | com_users (4.0.0) 1 | com_contenthistory (4.0.0) 1 | com_menus (4.0.0) 1 | com_config (4.0.0) 1 | com_joomlaupdate (4.0.3) 1 | com_banners (4.0.0) 1 | com_privacy (3.9.0) 1 | com_plugins (4.0.0) 1 | com_checkin (4.0.0) 1 | com_finder (4.0.0) 1 | com_cpanel (4.0.0) 1 | com_scheduler (4.1.0) 1 | com_admin (4.0.0) 1 | com_ajax (4.0.0) 1 | com_workflow (4.0.0) 1 | com_media (3.0.0) 1 | com_login (4.0.0) 1 | com_templates (4.0.0) 1 | com_fields (4.0.0) 1 | com_newsfeeds (4.0.0) 1 | com_actionlogs (3.9.0) 1 |
3rd Party:: com_akeebabackup (9.3.2) 1 | com_rsform (3.1.2) 1 |

Modules :: Site ::
Core :: mod_tags_similar (3.1.0) 1 | mod_banners (3.0.0) 1 | mod_articles_category (3.0.0) 1 | mod_feed (3.0.0) 1 | mod_tags_popular (3.1.0) 1 | mod_articles_archive (3.0.0) 1 | mod_articles_categories (3.0.0) 1 | mod_footer (3.0.0) 1 | mod_users_latest (3.0.0) 1 | mod_articles_latest (3.0.0) 1 | mod_random_image (3.0.0) 1 | mod_articles_news (3.0.0) 1 | mod_custom (3.0.0) 1 | mod_login (3.0.0) 1 | mod_related_items (3.0.0) 1 | mod_finder (3.0.0) 1 | mod_languages (3.5.0) 1 | mod_whosonline (3.0.0) 1 | mod_menu (3.0.0) 1 | mod_breadcrumbs (3.0.0) 1 | mod_syndicate (3.0.0) 1 | mod_wrapper (3.0.0) 1 | mod_stats (3.0.0) 1 | mod_articles_popular (3.0.0) 1 |
3rd Party:: RSForm! Pro Module (3.0.1) 1 |

Modules :: Admin ::
Core :: mod_feed (3.0.0) 1 | mod_sampledata (3.8.0) 1 | mod_loginsupport (4.0.0) 1 | mod_stats_admin (3.0.0) 1 | mod_privacy_dashboard (3.9.0) 1 | mod_latest (3.0.0) 1 | mod_messages (4.0.0) 1 | mod_post_installation_messages (4.0.0) 1 | mod_version (3.0.0) 1 | mod_logged (3.0.0) 1 | mod_multilangstatus (3.0.0) 1 | mod_frontend (4.0.0) 1 | mod_login (3.0.0) 1 | mod_title (3.0.0) 1 | mod_privacy_status (4.0.0) 1 | mod_latestactions (3.9.0) 1 | mod_quickicon (3.0.0) 1 | mod_user (4.0.0) 1 | mod_popular (3.0.0) 1 | mod_submenu (3.0.0) 1 | mod_menu (3.0.0) 1 | mod_custom (3.0.0) 1 | mod_toolbar (3.0.0) 1 |
3rd Party::

Libraries ::
Core ::
3rd Party::

Plugins ::
Core :: plg_extension_namespacemap (4.0.0) 1 | plg_extension_finder (4.0.0) 1 | plg_extension_joomla (3.0.0) 1 | plg_behaviour_versionable (4.0.0) 1 | plg_behaviour_taggable (4.0.0) 1 | plg_content_joomla (3.0.0) 1 | plg_content_fields (3.7.0) 1 | plg_content_loadmodule (3.0.0) 1 | plg_content_vote (3.0.0) 0 | plg_content_finder (3.0.0) 1 | plg_content_pagebreak (3.0.0) 1 | plg_content_confirmconsent (3.9.0) 0 | plg_content_emailcloak (3.0.0) 1 | plg_content_pagenavigation (3.0.0) 1 | plg_captcha_recaptcha_invisible (3.8) 0 | plg_captcha_recaptcha (3.4.0) 0 | plg_webservices_users (4.0.0) 1 | plg_webservices_config (4.0.0) 1 | plg_webservices_templates (4.0.0) 1 | plg_webservices_newsfeeds (4.0.0) 1 | plg_webservices_content (4.0.0) 1 | plg_webservices_modules (4.0.0) 1 | plg_webservices_installer (4.0.0) 1 | plg_webservices_media (4.1.0) 1 | plg_webservices_redirect (4.0.0) 1 | plg_webservices_plugins (4.0.0) 1 | plg_webservices_banners (4.0.0) 1 | plg_webservices_privacy (4.0.0) 1 | plg_webservices_languages (4.0.0) 1 | plg_webservices_messages (4.0.0) 1 | plg_webservices_tags (4.0.0) 1 | plg_webservices_menus (4.0.0) 1 | plg_sampledata_multilang (4.0.0) 1 | plg_fields_user (3.7.0) 1 | plg_fields_usergrouplist (3.7.0) 1 | plg_fields_textarea (3.7.0) 1 | plg_fields_imagelist (3.7.0) 1 | plg_fields_subform (4.0.0) 1 | plg_fields_text (3.7.0) 1 | plg_fields_media (3.7.0) 1 | plg_fields_calendar (3.7.0) 1 | plg_fields_radio (3.7.0) 1 | plg_fields_color (3.7.0) 1 | plg_fields_editor (3.7.0) 1 | plg_fields_sql (3.7.0) 1 | plg_fields_list (3.7.0) 1 | plg_fields_integer (3.7.0) 1 | plg_fields_checkboxes (3.7.0) 1 | plg_fields_url (3.7.0) 1 | plg_filesystem_local (4.0.0) 1 | plg_workflow_publishing (4.0.0) 1 | plg_workflow_notification (4.0.0) 1 | plg_workflow_featuring (4.0.0) 1 | plg_task_demo_tasks (4.1) 1 | plg_task_requests (4.1) 1 | plg_task_site_status (4.1) 1 | plg_task_check_files (4.1) 1 | plg_installer_webinstaller (4.0.0) 1 | plg_installer_folderinstaller (3.6.0) 1 | plg_installer_packageinstaller (3.6.0) 1 | plg_installer_urlinstaller (3.6.0) 1 | plg_installer_override (4.0.0) 1 | plg_finder_contacts (3.0.0) 1 | plg_finder_tags (3.0.0) 1 | plg_finder_content (3.0.0) 1 | plg_finder_categories (3.0.0) 1 | plg_finder_newsfeeds (3.0.0) 1 | plg_quickicon_downloadkey (4.0.0) 1 | plg_quickicon_joomlaupdate (3.0.0) 1 | plg_quickicon_privacycheck (3.9.0) 1 | plg_quickicon_phpversioncheck (3.7.0) 1 | plg_quickicon_overridecheck (4.0.0) 1 | plg_quickicon_extensionupdate (3.0.0) 1 | plg_multifactorauth_yubikey (3.2.0) 0 | plg_multifactorauth_email (4.2.0) 0 | plg_multifactorauth_fixed (4.2.0) 0 | plg_multifactorauth_webauthn (4.2.0) 0 | plg_multifactorauth_totp (3.2.0) 0 | plg_system_fields (3.7.0) 1 | plg_system_jooa11y (4.2.0) 1 | plg_system_languagecode (3.0.0) 0 | plg_system_shortcut (4.2.0) 1 | plg_system_privacyconsent (3.9.0) 0 | plg_system_stats (3.5.0) 1 | plg_system_httpheaders (4.0.0) 1 | plg_system_schedulerunner (4.1) 1 | plg_system_sef (3.0.0) 1 | plg_system_logout (3.0.0) 1 | plg_system_sessiongc (3.8.6) 1 | plg_system_log (3.0.0) 1 | plg_system_skipto (4.0.0) 1 | plg_system_remember (3.0.0) 1 | plg_system_accessibility (4.0.0) 1 | plg_system_cache (3.0.0) 0 | plg_system_logrotation (3.9.0) 1 | plg_system_debug (3.0.0) 1 | plg_system_updatenotification (3.5.0) 1 | plg_system_languagefilter (3.0.0) 0 | plg_system_task_notification (4.1) 1 | plg_system_actionlogs (3.9.0) 1 | plg_system_redirect (3.0.0) 0 | plg_system_webauthn (4.0.0) 1 | plg_system_highlight (3.0.0) 1 | plg_media-action_rotate (4.0.0) 1 | plg_media-action_crop (4.0.0) 1 | plg_media-action_resize (4.0.0) 1 | plg_privacy_message (3.9.0) 1 | plg_privacy_content (3.9.0) 1 | plg_privacy_consents (3.9.0) 1 | plg_privacy_user (3.9.0) 1 | plg_privacy_actionlogs (3.9.0) 1 | plg_api-authentication_token (4.0.0) 1 | plg_api-authentication_basic (4.0.0) 0 | plg_editors-xtd_article (3.0.0) 1 | plg_editors-xtd_readmore (3.0.0) 1 | plg_editors-xtd_pagebreak (3.0.0) 1 | plg_editors-xtd_fields (3.7.0) 1 | plg_editors-xtd_menu (3.7.0) 1 | plg_editors-xtd_image (3.0.0) 1 | plg_editors-xtd_module (3.5.0) 1 | plg_authentication_joomla (3.0.0) 1 | plg_authentication_cookie (3.0.0) 1 | plg_authentication_ldap (3.0.0) 0 | plg_actionlog_joomla (3.9.0) 1 | plg_user_joomla (3.0.0) 1 | plg_user_contactcreator (3.0.0) 0 | plg_user_profile (3.0.0) 0 | plg_user_token (3.9.0) 1 | plg_user_terms (3.9.0) 0 |
3rd Party:: PLG_CONSOLE_AKEEBABACKUP (9.3.2) 1 | PLG_TASK_AKEEBABACKUP (9.3.2) 1 | plg_installer_rsform (1.0.0) 1 | PLG_QUICKICON_AKEEBABACKUP (9.3.2) 1 | PLG_SYSTEM_BACKUPONUPDATE (9.3.2) 1 | mySites.guru Secure Plugin (n/a) 1 | System - RSForm! Pro Delete Submiss (1.0.0) ? | plg_editors_tinymce (5.10.5) 1 | plg_editors_codemirror (5.65.6) 1 | PLG_ACTIONLOG_AKEEBABACKUP (9.3.2) 0 |
Templates Discovered :: wrote:Templates :: Site :: cassiopeia (1.0) 1 |
Templates :: Admin :: atum (1.0) 1 |
The fact that an opinion is widely held is no evidence whatsoever that it is not utterly absurd.
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Re: Site refusing update ->4.3.2. Again.

Post by ceford » Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:36 pm

Memory limit needs to be 256M or more!

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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3 Again.

Post by sozzled » Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:02 pm

See what I wrote last time you had this error: viewtopic.php?f=812&t=996367&p=3670242#p3670271

You did none of the things I suggested.

Knowing that, in your case, PHP 7.4.3 works for you, compare the PHP settings you use with PHP 7.4.3 with PHP 8.x and 7.4.30 by posting the FPA of your website with PHP 7.4.3 (without attempting to update J!) and let's do the comparison. That's the first thing that I would do.

UPDATED: corrected the typo in the subject
Last edited by sozzled on Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by PhilTaylor-Prazgod » Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:27 pm

mySites.guru Secure Plugin
As this site is connected to a third party service that performs Joomla upgrades why not try that service?

Hint: Every site in your account at that third party service is showing a clear upgrade path that can be used - even for this site.
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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by PhilTaylor-Prazgod » Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:30 pm

Memory limit needs to be 256M or more!
LMAO. Joomla can and should be run with the smallest amount of PHP Process Memory possible. Joomla can upgrade with a PHP memory limit of 8Mb, although 32/64 is used on most web hosts by default in 2022.
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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by sozzled » Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:53 pm

I'm not going to waste my time proving or disproving that it's viable or feasible to update from J! x.a to J! y.b with a PHP memory limit of 8MB. That's an unnecessary distraction. I use what works and I know, from experience, the following settings (as minimums) work for me:

Image

Those settings may not be appropriate for everyone (and they're arbitrary anyway); in fact, I use larger memory-related values than these in my work.

I agree that one can install and "operate" a J! website with very small PHP quotas—as long as we're not talking about doing anything too fancy—but, from our experience, people encounter issues when updating J! (using the Joomla! Update component which is the only recommended way to update from one version of J! to another) unless the PHP quotas are adjusted to perform that process. So, while one may laugh-off the suggestion that J! can operate with a PHP memory limit < x MB (where x is some arbitrary number) that's not the issue. The issue concerns what happens when one tries to update from one version of J! to another and that's when PHP quotas are relevant as we've seen time and time again on this forum.

Wouldn't you agree with that, Phil?

While anyone (and everyone) can (and will) debate what values of "x" may be involved for whatever PHP quota we could be discussing, it's axiomatic that, if you don't have enough of "something" to get a job done, you need to get more of that "something", whatever it may be. 8)
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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by PhilTaylor-Prazgod » Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:40 pm

You are partially correct.

Best practice dictates that PHP processes should use as minimal server memory per process as possible. Code should be written - especially mass market code for shared servers - to minimise per process memory consumption.

If you went to ANY major shared webhost and said "I have this PHP application I want to run, it needs 512Mb per php process to run... is that ok?" no shared webhost would allow you to use them...

Unfortunately Joomla CMS, when attempting to reinstall the current versions files, uses the Joomla-framework HTTP package (and not com_joomlaupdate) to download the Joomla upgrade zip file - this uses CurlTransport which will fail (line 169) with small memory limits as it attempts to load the whole zip file into memory and unfortunately Joomla 4 is now huge, at 26.3Mb. (I remember when mambo would fit on a 1.44Mb floppy disk!)

In my (recent) tests that needed a memory_limit of 128M minimum to work.

Allowing every process on your server to use up to 512Mb means a shared server with 8Gb ram means only 16 processes can be run (at 512Mb each)... which is a pathetically low number on a shared server with 100+ sites!

Also, a single PHP process taking up 512Mb... wtf...

This is why, when designing and architecting PHP applications, memory use should be taking into account. One of the reasons Im banned from the Joomla project (for life? who knows, no one bothered even telling me I was even banned!) was for holding "hobby" PHP developers to higher standards... NO ONE should be designing a platform that needs 512Mb per php process! No one!

com_joomlaupdate does the same https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/bl ... l.php#L485

There are other ways to download chunks of files, not loading the whole file into memory, Joomla used to do this, extracting a zip file in chunks, Joomla used to do this (in fact I think it still does)....

The thing we agree on, is, picking a random number from the air, and advising people that their site should be using that value for memory_limit, goes against all best practice, and and and will allow badly written PHP applications to consume more resources than a decent application would.

Another example is your chart says that Joomla 4 needs a max post size of 128Mb... I mean, WTF are you uploading, using http forms that is over 100Mb in size? its 2022, the http protocol was never designed for such huge file uploads, that's why we have more appropriate protocols for file transfers...

So yes, push the limits of the webhost as high as you need to. But don't be under any illusion that this is "correct" way to run a PHP application.

The 3rd party upgrade service mentioned, CAN upgrade Joomla 4.0, using a hard coded PHP memory_limit of 8Mb - because it downloads the Joomla upgrade zip file in fragments relative to the size of the memory available, and extracts the zip file in small steps (like Joomla does) - this reply was delayed while testing this theory and I was able to get from 4.0.0 to 4.2.3 (though several upgrades inbetween, as is the upgrade paths presented by Joomla) all with a hard coded limit of 8Mb. Thus proving well designed PHP applications can achieve the same thing, if engineered correctly (Ironically, the 3rd party service update code uses a forked code from Joomla itself, written by the same developer who is over engineering the update process now...

You wait until (if) Joomla ever releases a cryptographically signed update process - then the requirements will jump for being able to update... hahaha.

Anyway, at the end of the day no one cares, and that's the real point here. The OP cannot be helped with the small information provided.

The correct advice should be, when you get the Red Screen of death (my contributed work upstream in symfony and in Joomla, you're welcome...) you should enable error reporting and debug mode in Joomla global configuration, repeat the process and get a real error message that can be discussed. Discussing a red screen of death is a waste of everyones time.
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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by sozzled » Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:56 pm

I dislike vainglorious panel discussions¹ because they prove nothing. This is The Joomla Forum™; it's not the "sozzled fact-checker page". I agree that, all things being equal, one would not attempt to run sixteen websites simultaneously on a shared webhosting platform requiring half-a-meg memory for each process; yep, my webhosting provider would be on to me quicker than flies at a barbie. But so what?

What I discovered, early in my tests of J! 4.x, was that my belief in the tried-and-true settings I'd been using for years with J! 3.x was shaken. J! 4.x is a bigger beast: I had to make a few adjustments. As I've written severally in different places, while we may debate the precise empirical values one may require, we can agree that if you don't have all the ingredients in place before you start you won't be able to bake the sponge cake like the recipe you saw in the cookbook.

I'm able to turn out consistently tasty biscuits by following a recipe. I don't need to understand the science of cooking to bake bickies. I make great omelettes but my wife makes the best scrambled eggs; there are some things for which we require a recipe; some things just come to us naturally/intuitively or instinctively. ;)

---------
¹ There's another term for these kinds of "contests" but it would be against the forum rules to write it.
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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by sozzled » Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:04 pm

Back to @Jaydot. Have you fixed your problem? What adjustments, if any, did you make?
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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by PhilTaylor-Prazgod » Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:06 pm

Joomla can upgrade with a PHP memory limit of 8Mb,
Just for history. I was wrong.

(Go ahead and frame that comment ha)

Joomla 4 can not upgrade with a PHP memory limit of 8Mb

"The third party service that cannot be named" CAN upgrade Joomla 4 with a hard coded PHP memory limit of 8Mb

Ive been checking the update code back down to Joomla 2.5.0 and I cannot find evidence of use of the `AcuDownload` class that we forked, used to download the update zip in fragments... so Im confused obviously. It came from com_cmsupdate and not com_joomlaupdate

If I were not banned I could contribute this back to the project, but hey, it would only be rejected as only one man is allowed to make changes to the update process now - ironically he wrote the com_cmsupdate extension also so he should be more than aware.

Also, the point you are discovering, is that the upgrade file size for Joomla 2.5.0 was only 7Mb in size. The upgrade file size for Joomla 4.2.3 is now a whopping 27.6Mb (37.2Mb of that is "media" folder, JS, CSS etc!!! insane....) . a huge jump in size, and this needs to all be loaded into memory, written to disk all within your memory limit, before extraction can take place. Plus the overheads of running Joomla itself.

Joomla 4.2.3 update file, when extracted, is 94.7Mb!!!
Last edited by PhilTaylor-Prazgod on Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by sozzled » Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:29 pm

;) Yep, crazy, isn't it?

It's not just that all of this stuff has to be loaded into memory and written to disk with the memory limit, before extracting the compressed files and running the post-installation SQL scripts, these things have to be uploaded to the website first and the process executed within the execution time limit.

There will always be experts who'll ridicule some of our suggestions and tips. That's OK: c'est la vie! :laugh:

Back to @Jaydot: have you been able to update your J! 4.2.2 website? ???
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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by PhilTaylor-Prazgod » Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:49 pm

ok my last post on this thread.

I have anonymized data on 72,000 Joomla/WordPress sites on a variety of webhosts.

The minimum memory_limit hard coded is 2M
The maximum memory_limit hard coded is 65536M
The average memory_limit is 1013.09M

82 sites use a memory limit over and above 1024M
over 43,000 sites use 1024M
424 sites use 128M
36 sites use 64M
9 sites use 32M
5 sites use 2M

So I learned something today. It seems that 1024M has fast become "industry (insane) standard" /facepalm /doh /crazy
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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by Jaydot » Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:46 pm

Hi.
Sorry for taking so long, life (and sleep) got in the way of my forum time.
Did two things:
Switched on debug and ran the update again. And got the message "Allowed Memory Size Exhausted".
Did what I should have done all along: listened to Sozzled (and Ceford) :). Changed the PHP options to the settings Sozzled recommends.
Ran the update: it ran flawlessly and extremely fast as well.

As for using my Third Party Service (which I love dearly): I use it for audits, and extension updates and backups, but doing the Joomla updates manually is simply a personal preference. It keeps me in closer contact with the sites, as it were.
The fact that an opinion is widely held is no evidence whatsoever that it is not utterly absurd.
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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by ceford » Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:59 pm

I also got the message "Allowed Memory Size Exhausted" on my laptop for my first update (long time ago). I changed the memory limit from 128M to 256M and that worked. In the light of the comments from @PhilTaylor-Prazgod it would be helpful to know why @sozzled recommends 512M rather than 256M. What else might crash with less than 512M?

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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by Webdongle » Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:10 pm

I have updated a vanilla Joomla on localhost Memory Limit: 128M. There was no htaccess though. Does having htaccess affect the memory needed?
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by PhilTaylor-Prazgod » Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:22 pm

Does having htaccess affect the memory needed?
Only if that .htaccess contains PHP directives affecting the php memory_limit (cough: cPanel)
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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by sozzled » Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:49 pm

ceford wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:59 pm
In the light of the comments from @PhilTaylor-Prazgod it would be helpful to know why @sozzled recommends 512M rather than 256M. What else might crash with less than 512M?
This is not the time or place for that.

=== Off-topic ===

I've travelled a long way since I wrote To 'localhost' or not to 'localhost', that is the question ... ... :laugh: I've softened my opposition to using a PC-hosted environment as proving ground for J! website development and maintenance (mainly because I eventually overcame the networking obstacles that prevented me having a server located on a different PC in my LAN to the one I use in my office at home). It only took me a few years before I stumbled on how to configure Apache to work within a network of Windows PCs. 8) As I say, I've come a long way since I read Dan Rahmel's book Beginning Joomla! From Novice to Professional published in 2007.

Just yesterday I wrote, in another "forum",
I spend more time mucking around with maintaining Wampserver than I do actually using the websites that I host on it! :laugh:

But I digress.

=== End off-topic ===


As I've written elsewhere on many occasions, our task here is to assist people who have problems. Our task is not to have long-winded "panel discussions" in which experts argue the toss about whether one thing tastes better than something else.
sozzled wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:53 pm
I'm not going to waste my time proving or disproving that it's viable or feasible to update from J! x.a to J! y.b with a PHP memory limit of [x MB. I use what works and ...
*leading with my chin* anyone can debate the whether x MB is empirically correct or arbitrary. It would take too long to distill fifty years of IT experience into one sentence that says "You need PHP memory set to be 512MB for J! 4.x because ..."

This topic is solved to the OP's satisfaction and that's good enough for me. :)

If anyone's really curious to learn if I simply invented the numbers in the table (about eleven posts ago), take a number, book yourself a one-on-one videoconference with me and supply the coffee. ;)
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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by PhilTaylor-Prazgod » Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:46 pm

our task here is to assist people who have problems. Our task is not to have long-winded "panel discussions" in which experts argue the toss about whether one thing tastes better than something else.
And yet so called experts who clearly don't understand the full hosting stack - by their own admission - are happy to throw random memory limit numbers at those that don't know any better... /facepalm....

PHP developers who dont understand how PHP works - especially in shared webhost environments, in FPM and in Module modes, are as bad as the person who drives a car without understanding combustion engines, but then goes on to try and educate people on how to change the wheels of the car for alloys, because it makes the car "faster"/facepalm

Im out, it's clear that no one listens to me anymore, and Im at peace with that.
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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by ceford » Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:36 pm

PhilTaylor-Prazgod wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:46 pm
And yet so called experts who clearly don't understand the full hosting stack - by their own admission - are happy to throw random memory limit numbers at those that don't know any better... /facepalm....

Im out, it's clear that no one listens to me anymore, and Im at peace with that.
Actually, I am listening! I admit to being an amateur who picks up knowledge along the way and passes it on to those who know less than I do. On the memory limit, I know from personal experience that 128M is not enough for a 3.x to 4.x update. But I don't know what is enough, other than it is less than 256M. I suppose I could test by incrementing the limit until it does work. That never occurred to me.

A question I had from your statistics: how many of those sites were using shared hosting and how many were using a VPS?

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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by Webdongle » Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:38 am

PhilTaylor-Prazgod wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:46 pm
... it's clear that no one listens to me anymore, and Im at peace with that.
I listen that's why I reported my settings not claim that was the perfect settings. Also why I asked a question (about htaccess) not make a statement about it.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by Jaydot » Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:18 pm

PhilTaylor-Prazgod wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:46 pm
...so called experts...
I remember the surprise I felt when this forum suddenly added "guru" under my name. I hope everyone realizes that the forum bases this on quantity, not quality :).
Like the others, I certainly listen carefully to everything real experts say. And you're right, I don't understand the half of it.
I also see the handful of people who go out of their way to help users like me, many of whom (the users) are even more clueless than I am.
And I see real experts complain that they need to spend time correcting some of the advice given. But LYAO and facepalming is probably not helping, even if you are right...
Anyway.
Because of this thread, I discussed the high memory limit with my favourite (dutch) hosting provider.
They explained that they do "container hosting", not shared hosting, every hosting package has it's own little "island" with 1cpu/1Gig RAM, so I can raise the memory limit as high as I want.
I'm not going to worry about it anymore :).
The fact that an opinion is widely held is no evidence whatsoever that it is not utterly absurd.
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Re: Site refusing update ->4.2.3. Again.

Post by sozzled » Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:59 pm

I agree. 8)
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