Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by free-rebel » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:10 pm

btw. forgot about number ... name will be 1.7 but I think, ti will be something like 1.6.x
Only team wants every 6 month have new number, so after few eayr we will have Joomla milion :D
I think big changes was made already, so now will be slowly aplying in every new version some changes , some extra function, maybe something will be removed ...
Joomla 1.5 is good, Joomla 1.6 is not bad, so 1.7 can be also useful :D and joomla 1.8 maybe will work with drupal and wordpress and 2.0 will be 2012 so everything will finish in internet so we will work manualy :D
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by Tonie » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:18 am

Webdongle wrote: The reasons for not upgrading are irrelevant to the point.

The fact that people are advised not to upgrade (whatever the reason) means that 1.6 will not be used much. And therefore all the effort put into 1.6 will not be realised to its full potential.
If the old development model would be used for the next version of Joomla, the advice to not upgrade to 1.6 would have been the same at the moment. It's the same advice that was also given after Joomla 1.5 came out. If designers, site builders and developers need to do work on a new version comes out, there is time for everybody to learn the good and the bad of the new version. It also gives the jbs team the time to fix a lot of bugs in the new code. For 1.6.1, already around a hundred big fixes have been applied.
Webdongle wrote: But 1.6 will not be supported in two years and will be superseded by another STR in a few months. And that in turn by a LTR (which we are told will be compatible with 1.5).

Therefore (in effect) people are being advised not to upgrade for a couple of years.
The next LTR is already scheduled for a year, support for 1.5 will be removed in april next year. So when the next LTR comes out, people are definitely advised to upgrade to the next version. Also, the moment enough developers/designers have 1.6/1.7 compatible versions the advice to upgrade can also be given sooner.
Webdongle wrote:I can understand a company like MS bringing out new versions all the time. They want to make money with their STR's. But what is the point of a Not for Profit Organisation doing it ?
The dev team decides on the development model, doesn't have anything to do with the NFP status.
Webdongle wrote:What is the real reason for bringing out STR's that are incompatible for upgrading ???
This is the million dollar question for the new release strategy. For it to work, upgrading to a new Joomla version should be trivial. Trivial would be something like:

* A procedure or link in the backend how upgrades are done (backup first, etc.)
* One-click action to detect if you template and extensions are ready for the new version
* Upgrade from the backend which automatically copies the files, and does the necessary database adjustments for you.

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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by free-rebel » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:49 pm

Hi Tonie, do you know, when it will be ready 1.6.1 about ? few days, few weeks ?
Many thanks :pop
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by Tonie » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:04 pm

I don't know, but I expect soonish since it has been a month since 1.6.0 has been released.

It's good to see that the Joomla Bug Squad keeps on working hard now that 1.6.0 has been released.

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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by free-rebel » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:18 pm

Thanks Tonie, it's good, I dont have problems with 1.6, but if there are hundred of bugs, so it would be good have fixed that :pop
Anywasy I need to wait few weeks also for my extension to update for 1.6 so I m waiting man :D
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by AmyStephen » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:25 pm

Tonie wrote: It's good to see that the Joomla Bug Squad keeps on working hard now that 1.6.0 has been released.
Yes, Tonie, the Joomla! Bug Squad are our heroes. I encourage all of you to at least help test a patch or join the squad and help get 1.6 stabilized.

I have not posted in the forums in a long time and I am afraid I don't pay as much attention as I should. Today, I was heartbroken to read these comments about Molajo.

Molajo is a celebration of Joomla! 1.6. It's intended to help drive collaboration with our developer community. It is hoped that we might work together to make it possible for our Extensions to integrate more seamlessly so that Joomla! Web sites proudly show what this community accomplishes together.

Do I think we have problems in our community and with our project?

Yes.

Whose fault is that?

-->OURS<--

So, now, we need to ask ourselves what are we going to do about it? We can document new features. Help get the API defined. Work with Matias on the Migration. Taken questions in the forums. Create Extensions. Create Videos and share them on You Tube. Those are our jobs! It's fun when you engage yourself and watch how your work helps others be successful.

But people, please understand that it is NOT contributing to point out what's wrong. Fix one of the issues you have identified and then you are contributing. You will learn in that process it's harder than it looks.

I do not mean to preach at you, I'm sorry.

Molajo is one proactive approach a small handful of us are taking to help encourage our community to know -- we CAN get involved and we WILL make a difference.

Our code is Joomla's code, if the project finds it to be helpful. Our work will be made available to our Joomla! community. Those who find it helpful with 1.6 are encouraged to somehow, somewhere give something back and invest in our shared future.

Many of you know who I am, you know how to reach me. I am happy to talk to any of you. But, please don't use Molajo as a club against the project that makes Molajo possible. That's just too sad for words.

There is more to Joomla! 1.6 than meets the eye. It is a LOT better than 1.5. It has bugs. Let's find those, patch 'em, and put 'em behind us. The potential in 1.6 is well worth it. If I did not think so, I would not invest the time I am investing in creating work that rides on 1.6's back.

All Together, right? Let's get after it.

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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by masterchief » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:50 am

Just want to clarify something in this thread, as I have done elsewhere. The notion that the project would, or even could make changes every 6 months on the magnitude that we've seen every 2 or 3 years is totally unrealistic. The change in release time is a "response" to that situation to "alleviate" the enormous pressure it puts on developers and designers. Please do not jump to conclusions that we are going to go from allegedly massive change every 3 years, to massive change every 6 months. We Joomla developers are good, but not that good :) We are moving from big change in big steps to small changes in smaller steps. The LTS versions are also there to "buffer" people that don't want to change as quickly. By the time we get to 1.8, we'll all have the hang of it :)

To be honest, if the only thing that was in Joomla 1.7 was integrated site migration, automatic core updates and the separation of the Joomla platform, that would be fantastic.

If you want to have your say about what change actually does occur, this is the place to watch:

http://joomlacode.org/gf/project/joomla ... er_id=8549

Look mainly at the "Open" status (I don't think "Under Review" is up to date). I believe all bets have to be placed 8 weeks prior to the 1.7 release date (roughly 10 July 2011) after that it goes into the pool for 1.8.

So if there's anything in there that you think will cause you pain (talking mainly to the developers and designers here), now is the time to speak up. Otherwise, roll the dice and accept the result for better or worse :) Don't leave it up to "someone" else to check.
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by kurchania » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:13 am

@amy
I was heartbroken to read these comments about Molajo.
Our code is Joomla's code, if the project finds it to be helpful. Our work will be made available to our Joomla! community.
its really nice that you people are moving forward and creating strong group.but still my question is
we can do it all in joomla ? why molajo,jZenGarden than.
@masterchief
So if there's anything in there that you think will cause you pain (talking mainly to the developers and designers here), now is the time to speak up. Otherwise, roll the dice and accept the result for better or worse :) Don't leave it up to "someone" else to check.
joomla 1.5 is successfull beacuse of its legacy feature.so people will think before they go with joomla 1.6.
no one want to lose his data in the cost of any framework development.just what we all want now is that joomla 1.6 component code should work in joomla1.22 ;D with additional features.

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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by masterchief » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:42 am

kurchania wrote: joomla 1.5 is successfull beacuse of its legacy feature.so people will think before they go with joomla 1.6.
no one want to lose his data in the cost of any framework development.just what we all want now is that joomla 1.6 component code should work in joomla1.22 ;D with additional features.
So, here's the thing. There is an "amount" of work, A, that is required to upgrade a legacy mode dependant extension to Joomla 1.6. A is very, very large. There is an amount of work, B, that is required for a 1.5 extensions to "just install and basically work" in Joomla 1.6. B is unknown but could be small, could be large (but less than A). Then there is an amount of work, C, for an extension developer to to only upgrade to 1.6, but also plug into all the new features natively. That amount of work can be large depending on how "future proof" the design was, and obviously the skill of the developer, but it *will* be greater than effort B.

In other words, just upgrading to 1.6 isn't the problem. There is a good amount of work for a developer to upgrade to take advantage of all the new features in 1.6. You can't just install a 1.5 extension in 1.6 and expect it to happen automatically - it doesn't work that way. It was the same for 1.5 - while a component could run in legacy mode, it never really took advantage of the new things in 1.5 (menus, layout overrides, etc). Those things required "effort" to do. I'm certainly doing my best to provide information to assist developers on how to do this, but I'm just one person.
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by kurchania » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:31 am

@masterchief
Those things required "effort" to do. I'm certainly doing my best to provide information to assist developers on how to do this, but I'm just one person.
i am with you and always with you.just ask anytime masterchief ;D .
So, here's the thing. There is an "amount" of work, A, that is required to upgrade a legacy mode dependant extension to Joomla 1.6. A is very, very large. There is an amount of work, B, that is required for a 1.5 extensions to "just install and basically work" in Joomla 1.6. B is unknown but could be small, could be large (but less than A). Then there is an amount of work, C, for an extension developer to to only upgrade to 1.6, but also plug into all the new features natively. That amount of work can be large depending on how "future proof" the design was, and obviously the skill of the developer, but it *will* be greater than effort B.
let me modify the equation.A shopping cart system have 10,000 product build in joomla older version .A core developer don't have much to create that.but think of testing site.they test everything.they require more than x months to test the solution and make it ready to launch in market.
now when they tell A to migrate system to joomla 1.6 no worries.
but A testing department have to work again for x months to test everything according to our standard to convert to B.
than come joomla1.7 same cycle.
meanwhile A client who always pay for creating and maintaining his shopping cart have different time frame and different perception to the project.he realize that A framework people are not good in creating his shopping cart and they are taking unnecessary time to create his project.
effort of developer X time of testing X delay in project X client support X timeframe X upgradation
please put them all in your equation.
have a look at real example
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p ... 0#p2408630

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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by masterchief » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:47 am

kurchania wrote:effort of developer X time of testing X delay in project X client support X timeframe X upgradation
please put them all in your equation.
This is the normal process of making software. Please look at my article about the things a developer has to weigh up when considering to upgrade. It's early days and the feedback is mixed about 1.6. Some people love it, some don't think it's an improvement at all, some are complaining because it wasn't what they were expecting. That's life - you can't please everyone all of the time - to even try is folly. Developers need to see if their user base requires them to support 1.6. It would be wise to do this because the short release cycle now means changes are smaller between versions. Also be aware that Joomla is a community driven project. The developer that does not watch what is happening has no excuse to complain. Joomla 1.6 was in "beta" for 6 months. If we'd made it a year in beta, there still would be developers that left looking at it to the last minute. It was time to release, it was time to change a few things to set the standard for the next few years.

The developer also has many options. Joomla 1.6 has wonderful new API. It is possible to put forward compatibility support in 1.5 to make supporting dual versions easier. There are lots of options, but an option for "no work" is sadly not available. The level of pain you experience depends on your skill as a developer. Sloppy coders will have a terrible time upgrading (no sympathy). Good, modular coders still have work to do, but they will spend much less time in the debug and test phase. The case for each developer is different. Doing anything "differently" in 1.6 would impact the future in different ways for different people.

As for me, I know which API I'd rather develop on. I've even converted my 1.5-only extensions to have a forward compatible layer because the API is so wonderful (for comparison, I stopped supporting 1.0 they day 1.5 arrived, actually I think I started supporting it 6 months before it released).
kurchania wrote: have a look at real example
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?p ... 0#p2408630
So. One person in the world doesn't like 1.6 and isn't happy with what he/she can't get for free for it. That's one of the disadvantages of releasing software in big steps over big time periods. That's why the project decide to do something about it and change the release cycle. Long release cycles are bad, bad, bad for this exact reason, that's why it was changed. The moral of the story is "Joomla, don't don't take 3 years to release your next version".
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by Tonie » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:17 am

A good interview with Linus Torvalds (linux kernel) here, it also talks about release cycles and the changes they had to go through. http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analy ... ng-forward

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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by AmyStephen » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:21 am

kurchania wrote: its really nice that you people are moving forward and creating strong group.but still my question is
we can do it all in joomla ? why molajo,jZenGarden than.
Abhijeet -

To be honest, I'm a bit perplexed as to why so many people are even asking that question. I think it gets into part of the problem we are hoping to help solve. Why is it so odd that a group of community members collaborating on code and support for community is suspect? In other free software communities, it would be considered normal. Everyone uses Extensions. We are building those.

Why in Joomla! have we all come to believe 'the project' takes care of the work and our job is to let them know if they are doing it fast enough or as we wish? On the other hand, the project can be a bit controlling which encourages that thinking. Goes both ways, but it has to end. We have to become a working community.

Both Molajo and jZenGarden are intended to encourage that community involvement by making clear opportunity for developers and site builders to collaborate around our primary output -- and that is code. jZenGarden will provide designers a way to share Templates that show off what Joomla! can do.

Molajo will provide developers a way to collaborate on a set of code that we can share and use to make certain that an eCommerce solution can be snapped together nicely with a Calendaring solution. Both Components should be extensible by the Site Builder -- without any involvement from the initial developer. Molajo should help drive some of the adoption of those standards and approaches.

The footprints of that standardization are in 1.6. Folks are just starting to play with it and discover some of those intentions. Until developers understand it, until it becomes how we build Extensions, it will only be an idea, not reality. So, that's the goal.

I believe there are problems with the project and community. I think there is disconnect. I think there is a real lack of understanding of how community can work together, or how we can get traction as a community. So, instead of harping on the project that "they need to" - we're trying a few things - see how it works.

Now, turning your question around, I would ask you to think shouldn't we all be acting that way? We think so. Imagine activating 1% of our community towards common goals. Where would we be this time next year with software available? learning resources? support?

Thanks,
Amy :)

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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by masterchief » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:50 am

Good reference Tonie.
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by masterchief » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:37 am

AmyStephen wrote:So, instead of harping on the project that "they need to" - we're trying a few things - see how it works.
And on that point, I say Amen!
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by kurchania » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:49 am

@AmyStephen
congrats for your effort.no problem with molajo.joomla biggest names are there.your comment remind me the concept of interface.show user the part which is required to show and hide the complexity.
@masterchief Amen!
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=615&t=593280
see how the people now migrating to html from joomla.
@Tonie good refrence but still stability is most vital part of life.
Last edited by kurchania on Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by masterchief » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:00 pm

kurchania wrote:@Tonie good refrence but still stability is most vital part of life.
Look at 1.6 as the beginning in a new era of stability, setting the stage for the next 5 years complimenting the golden age we've enjoyed with 1.0 and 1.5 :) It really does have a lot of elegance and seriously cool stuff under the hood that gets away from the very nasty hacks people do to 1.5 to bend it to their will.
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by Tonie » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:04 pm

@Andrew. I'm going to find out tonight again as decided to do a complete redesign for my biggest extension from native MVC 1.5 to 1.6 (which will take me a few months). Need the multi-level categories, and will first dive into the form changes as I start with the backend.

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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by masterchief » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:15 pm

Tonie wrote:@Andrew. I'm going to find out tonight again as decided to do a complete redesign for my biggest extension from native MVC 1.5 to 1.6 (which will take me a few months). Need the multi-level categories, and will first dive into the form changes as I start with the backend.
Sweet. Let me know if you get stuck. I'm trying to add to my conversion cheat sheet as I see people having issues.
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by free-rebel » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:52 pm

please stop talking about molajo and this kind of idea, this is joomla forum, I would like to read about joomla, if you love molajo or beer or vodka, its your decision, this is for people who love joomla and we like to support, work with joomla, not project of Johny or whoever ...
Under Joomla its for sure a lot of work behind ... it took many years that joomla is now there, where is it, millions of people use Joomla, if you want take Joomla for helping your project, ok take it, it is open source, but dont celebrate your project, like you celebrate joomla, its your or whoever project, it is not joomla, that kind of project can have each users, that is no way how to build joomla be better, be the best ... better way is concentrate energy to joomla, not to many separate product and no depend how it calls, if molajo, garden or street :d

:pop
Thanks :pop
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by Tonie » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:30 pm

Sigh.....

This is a really good discussion. It's an upgrading FAQ, but it touched a lot of other subjects, upgrading/release strategy/future/distributions so people can gain a better understanding of the time that is coming. Now the reasons for distributions is probably better for another thread, but I am not going to remove. I haven't really done so, because it fitted in nicely within the context of the discussion. Now I do suggest that if people want to talk about specific Joomla distributions, they open a new thread on the forum.

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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by kurchania » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:32 pm

hi tonie,
thanx a lot for your kind support to this post.
@masterchief joomla 1.6 as the beginning in a new era of stability
i also believe you
@amy best of luck for malajo.
@free-rebel we all have every right to create our group and if joomla people can support us than its will be worth for everyone of us.if you can create your own group for promotion of joomla people will support you also.molajo is that kind of initiative of amy.that's what open source is all about joining people from everywhere.

@rest guys jist of discussion
masterchief wrote:That's why the project decide to do something about it and change the release cycle. Long release cycles are bad, bad, bad for this exact reason, that's why it was changed. The moral of the story is "Joomla, don't don't take 3 years to release your next version".
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by masterchief » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:57 pm

free-rebel wrote:please stop talking about molajo and this kind of idea, this is joomla forum, I would like to read about joomla, if you love molajo or beer or vodka, its your decision, this is for people who love joomla and we like to support, work with joomla, not project of Johny or whoever ...
Personally I think it's ok for people to respond when their "name" is mentioned, but keeping that response as short as possible would be a good courtesy, finishing with "best thing is to talk to us about that issue on our forums (see my signature) or by email/PM". That would go for Molajo, Nooku, Jentla or any other distro, fork, spoon, business (even mine), whatever. If you go into long marketing shpeels, then people are going to switch off or get cranky.
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by mariusvr » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:25 pm

masterchief wrote:So if there's anything in there that you think will cause you pain (talking mainly to the developers and designers here), now is the time to speak up. Otherwise, roll the dice and accept the result for better or worse :) Don't leave it up to "someone" else to check.
Thanks for all your hard work on Joomla 1.6 Andy! Since your asked here are the issues that will prevent Joomla 1.6 migration in my opinion:

1. Allow for stability in the Joomla framework.
Part of the responsibilities of developing a framework is to provide stability. Developers that use Joomla 1.5 native coding are penalised, as massive changes to the framework mean they have to spend enormous amounts of time to make their extension compatible. I am not complaining about new features or necessary changes. It is the renaming of all events and some functions to "make the names look pretty", that is extremely annoying as all it does it break compatibility without gain in function.

Could you imagine PHP renaming the functions: "asort(), arsort(), natsort(), uasort(), uksort(), usort()" to "sorta(), sortar(), sortnat(), sortua(), sortuk(), sortu()" ->without<- providing any backward compatibility and wanting to force developers to maintain multiple branches? Of course not!

But wait there are many marked as depreciated and scheduled to be removed in Joomla 1.7. Therefore extensions that work on Joomla 1.6 might not work on Joomla 1.7. And there has been no information from the PLT on how many other changes are going to be implemented for Joomla 1.8 and if it will support Joomla 1.6/1.7 standards. It would be of great help to the community and developers if a pledge would be made that Joomla 1.6 extensions will also run on Joomla 1.7/1.8. There is no need to further remove/rename functions and this will save developers having three different branches just to support the different Joomla versions (most developers have 2-3 development branches for their own code, therefore this could force developers to maintain up to 9 branches per extension).


2. Provide adequate API documentation.
There is no accurate Joomla 1.6 API documentation and this will delay the transition to Joomla 1.6 without an API website and documentation on the changes required. Yes there is a wiki API, but it sucks big time. Here is an example of the Joomla 1.5 API:
http://api.joomla.org/Joomla-Framework/ ... ation.html
And here of the Joomla 1.6 API:
http://docs.joomla.org/API16:JPagination
This is partly due to the different method in generating the docs (phpdocumentor vs mediawiki), but also due to documentation tags being missing or inadequate in the source code. This has been pointed out many times over the last year, with many people offering to fix it. But it seems to be ignored by the PLT (we don't even have a defined Joomla coding standard atm). How are we supposed to use the awesome new great features of Joomla 1.6 we we don't have proper API docs? I have offered countless times to fix this, but I have given up after being ignored/dismissed too many times.

3. Outdated wiki with severly restricted license
It is forbidden to add ANY external link in the Joomla wiki, as they actively get removed by joomla wiki admins. Also OSM forces anybody that does contribute to the wiki, to do so under an restrictive custom license (http://docs.joomla.org/JEDL). Because of this the Joomla wiki is outdated and fast becoming irrelevant.

There are some great resources on Joomla 1.6, but they can not be listed in the wiki (external links forbidden). I have contacted many authors of these great Joomla 1.6 tutorials if they would allow their content to be published on the joomla wiki. All of them declined because of the JEDL license.

Why don't we use the "Joomla GPL spirit" on the wiki as well and publish it under GPL?

Please don't get offended by this critisism. In order to improve and move forward, we first have to analyse what we can do better. I am very happy to be part of the solution once the PLT makes some decisions on these issues.

Thanks, Marius
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by masterchief » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:50 pm

mariusvr wrote: Thanks for all your hard work on Joomla 1.6 Andy! Since your asked here are the issues that will prevent Joomla 1.6 migration in my opinion:
Thanks for the kind words (but I don't answer to Andy, hehe).
mariusvr wrote:1. Allow for stability in the Joomla framework.
Absolutely and the Joomla project has always taken this seriously, to its own detriment sometimes. The "framework" does have extremely high BC with the 1.5 framework, that is, the API contained in /libraries/. BC issues have been found and corrected, and if you do find any more, please log them in the tracker.

Regarding "deprecated", a lot of developers seem to misunderstand what this means. For all the API marked deprecated, a developer should stop using that over the course of the 1.6 release cycle so that when they get to 1.7, they aren't using it anymore. This is the same situation whereby a developer on 1.5 legacy mode must convert before moving to 1.6 (because it has been removed). Deprecated features have been listed here:

http://docs.joomla.org/What%27s_new_in_Joomla_1.6

If any are missing, please login to the wiki and update the page. Regarding your "pledge", here it is:

http://developer.joomla.org/strategy/ba ... ility.html
mariusvr wrote:2. Provide adequate API documentation.
Documentation is a product of those who choose to volunteer to do it. It doesn't grow on trees, nor should you expect the members of the PLT to physically write it (they are volunteers too). The most simple way I can put it is, if you don't like the situation, change it. Perhaps discussing here http://forum.joomla.org/viewforum.php?f=303 would be an option. Perhaps hiring documentation writers is also an option given the amount of time good documentation takes time to produce.

I don't recall any "fixes" for the API documentation but you can roll your own with either phpDocumentator (not easy) or Doxygen (only takes a minute - brilliant stuff).
mariusvr wrote:3. Outdated wiki with severly restricted license
I actually have no problem with the JEDL, but I choose not to add to the wiki for other reasons. I do it on my own sites because that derives an income for me to produce more docs. If anyone wants to sponsor me to write documentation on the wiki, I would consider reasonable and realistic offers :) The alternative is I don't do anything at all because I'll be doing other consulting work to provide an income. It's simple economics.

Regarding the "age" of material, again, this is a function of those who choose to update it. If nobody wants to update it in the community, then quite frankly, that's tough.
mariusvr wrote:Please don't get offended by this critisism. In order to improve and move forward, we first have to analyse what we can do better. I am very happy to be part of the solution once the PLT makes some decisions on these issues.
Not offended at all, but I don't get what decision the PLT has to make. Should they engage hit men, or purchase whips to make people work? I think not.

I think people should be free to contribute, without criticism, by whatever medium suits their circumstances, whether that's the wiki or not. Yes that means some people monetise the production of user/admin/dev documentation, but that is a reflection of the amount of time it takes to provide a sustainable stream of up-to-date information. It's one thing to generate an API reference automatically - it's another thing altogether to actually write good teaching material. Does that mean the project should be a little more realistic about outbound links? Maybe, or maybe there are other solutions using existing resources like the JRD. Start a conversation in the forum if you haven't already http://forum.joomla.org/viewforum.php?f=303
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by FishFry » Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:49 am

This is an excellent thread for me to evaluate how I want to handle my site through the upgrades. I am concerned about the ability of the plugin writers to keep up to the new 1.6 and possibly higher. I don't want to upgrade and lose the usability of our production site right at this moment.

I think I have a lot to think about and thanks to everybody for their input here on this thread.

It's a great read.

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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by mariusvr » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:01 am

masterchief wrote: If any are missing, please login to the wiki and update the page. Regarding your "pledge", here it is:

http://developer.joomla.org/strategy/ba ... ility.html
Yeah but that pledge sucks. It basically says we can change anything we like, you get 6 months notice with the new short releases and complete classes can be removed. Also expect to have to adjust your extensions again for Joomla 1.7 and later Joomla 1.8. Then you also have been very vocal that you believe that developers must use different development branches of their products for each Joomla version. That's realy comforting to know for developers and really encourages to upgrade their extensions :S Basically developers get penalised for using the Joomla framework and large extension developers could be better off not to use the Joomla framework (use zend, nooku or other frameworks). The current policy does not allow for stabilty.
masterchief wrote: Documentation is a product of those who choose to volunteer to do it. It doesn't grow on trees, nor should you expect the members of the PLT to physically write it (they are volunteers too). The most simple way I can put it is, if you don't like the situation, change it
I have been trying for more than a year and unlike yourself I have not requested a single payment. Here is patch I submitted to the tracker:
http://joomlacode.org/gf/project/joomla ... m_id=20691

Discussed it many times, some examples:
http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-d ... 7adde2e1f/
http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabu ... 453f80f10/
http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabu ... acfb6f02f/
http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabu ... 8acfb6f02f

Part of the problem is that Joomla has conflicting code standards:
http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabu ... 2b5a3c321/

Each time I ask every couple of months the answer is: "thanks for your interest, we will discuss getting a defined joomla coding standard with the PLT". Lots of other people have also offered to fix this for free, but it always gets stuck at the PLT level. The end result is awful Joomla 1.6 API docs.
masterchief wrote:I don't recall any "fixes" for the API documentation but you can roll your own with either phpDocumentator (not easy) or Doxygen (only takes a minute - brilliant stuff).
Well that is showing leadership and vision to ask people to generate Joomla 1.6 API docs themselves? The basic problem with that is that the phpdoc tags are inaccurate in the Joomla source code itself. Therefore even docs generated by doxygen yourself can not be relied on. Would other frameworks like PHP, Drupal, etc ask people to generate their own API documentation? Of course not.

I am a bit dazzled by your suggestions to "just change it" and I am not sure why making a post on a Joomla forum will fix the issue of bad Joomla 1.6 API docs, when I already posted patches and discussed it on bugsquad/developers-list.

Thanks, Marius
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by masterchief » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:13 am

mariusvr wrote: Yeah but that pledge sucks.
It was put out to RFC and modifications where made based on community feedback, but if that's the way you feel, don't let me convince you otherwise. I'd be more than happy to comment on an alternative if you want to draft one.
mariusvr wrote:Then you also have been very vocal that you believe that developers must use different development branches of their products for each Joomla version.
Close, but no cigar. Knowing as much as I do about 1.5 and 1.6, I do believe it's better for 1.5 to 1.6 IF you intend to take full advantage of 1.6, however I also said my estimate is that 1.7 and 1.8 are different stories and you will probably get away with dual or even tri-versions in the one package. I've also said it's "possible" that modules and plugins "may" be suitable for dual-version, single packages. Whatever the case, you have a choice to do whatever you want whichever way you want and while I have an opinion, I also respect you and others may have differing views. Extensions need to be treated on a case-by-case basis.
mariusvr wrote:I have been trying for more than a year and unlike yourself I have not requested a single payment. Here is patch I submitted to the tracker:
http://joomlacode.org/gf/project/joomla ... m_id=20691
Fixed in SVN.

There is also no issue with getting paid for working on, or selling GPL software. Joomla, and Mambo before it, have had many hundreds of thousands of dollars sunk into their core development by private GO's and NGO's over the years (and millions into the custom extensions industry). All this contributes to the success of those who use it for free. And just because you don't get paid for volunteering, doesn't mean there is not an associated economic cost.

It does stick in my craw, though, when you ask a generous person to give you even more for nothing, and try and make yourself look "superior" to them because of it. I am grateful for anyone's contribution and do not judge how they came to make it or who did or didn't pay for it. We can do without that sort of prejudice and discrimination. But we are starting to move off topic...
Fair enough and I'll openly admit I was preoccupied with stabilising for beta and documenting other things at the time.
mariusvr wrote:Part of the problem is that Joomla has conflicting code standards:
http://groups.google.com/group/joomlabu ... 2b5a3c321/
Yep, that's a problem we have at the moment. In the absence of better information, just work on the standard in the wiki - it's better than nothing. To be honest, and this is just my opinion, I'd be happy if all the Docblocks where just present, let alone accurate (obviously I would like both). To answer your question, yes, submit patches to correct Docblocks.
mariusvr wrote:Well that is showing leadership and vision to ask people to generate Joomla 1.6 API docs themselves?
Ok, if you say so. While I totally agree online API docs are "convenient", they are not as critical as they were years ago. The reason is most IDE's have good code analysis these days (and that gets us back to our Docblock quality which is good for some areas of the core, and rubbish in others). Also, an API reference is necessary, but equally (if not more) valuable are tutorials to teach you how to use it. We obviously need more of those but again I say I will not judge anyone for the way in which they deliver them. Freedom is more important.

Marius, let me be clear - you bring up very, very valid points - I'm not disputing that (except for your rimshots about getting paid to do Open Source work, let's take that offline shall we?). Your offers to help with Docblocks as a start, I'm sure, would be gratefully accepted.
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by mariusvr » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:47 pm

Lets not assume things about each other. I did not bring up the issue about being paid. I have no objections to people being paid in open source software, that's just part of the game. Although I find it slightly strange that your first reaction to my pointing out the lack of Joomla 1.6 documents, is to ask me to pay you to make more documents on Joomla 1.6 public. (even if it is followed by a smiley face). I do not feel more superior than you. Just very frustrated the Joomla 1.6 API docs are still rubbish despite my best attempts to help.

Yes that patch for a single file was accepted, but there are still tens if not hundreds of thousands of coding/formatting violations in the Joomla 1.6 source code. It is not practical to submit patches to the tracker to fix this. This needs an organised approach to fix the mess. A dedicated branch needs to be created by the PLT, a set of standards defined by the PLT and a coordinated approach by the community to get the job done.

Next year if the "backward compatibility document" goes ahead as planned there will be six entry fields for software compatibility in the JED. a) Joomla 1.0, b) Joomla 1.5 legacy, c) Joomla 1.5 native, d) Joomla 1.6, e) Joomla 1.7 and f) Joomla 1.8. Just look at how long it took for for 3rd party developers to adjust to Joomla 1.5 (even with a legacy layer). Joomla 1.6 severely breaks backward compatibility (we can agree to disagree on this). Just look at the list of changes needed to extensions that is growing every week (as we find out more about Joomla 1.6)
http://docs.joomla.org/Tutorial:Upgrade ... Joomla_1.6

Do you think it is a good idea to ask developers to update their extension to adopt to a changing Joomla API every 6 months, taking into account that converting to Joomla 1.5 took years? Emphatically my answer to this is NO. It is just an impossible task for 3rd party developers to do and will take very valuable time away from developers to actually innovate. History has shown that 3rd party developers (for whatever reasons) are incapable of adapting to a changing core API every 6 months.


Excuse me while I answer some questions out loud:

Can innovation be achieved without breaking backward compatibility every 6 months?
-> YES

Can the short 6 months release cycle bring benefits?
Yes, it will allow to bring new features to the community faster, but this should not be at the expense of compatibility.

Would not removing any of the depreciated functions from the next release, negatively effect the project? No not really.

Would removing functions and classes with only 6 months notice and continuing to change/rename core events/classes negatively effect 3rd party developers?
Yes it would. And it encourages "fence-sitting" by developers, as what is the point of spending a months getting their products working on Joomla 1.6, when they won't work in Joomla 1.7 anyway?

Let me know when "the project" is ready to fix the API/documentation and I will glady donate my time to get it fixed.

Thanks, Marius
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Re: Joomla 1.6 upgrading FAQ - Discussion

Post by masterchief » Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:08 pm

mariusvr wrote:Although I find it slightly strange that your first reaction to my pointing out the lack of Joomla 1.6 documents, is to ask me to pay you to make more documents on Joomla 1.6 public. (even if it is followed by a smiley face).
I meant the project, not you.
mariusvr wrote:A dedicated branch needs to be created by the PLT, a set of standards defined by the PLT and a coordinated approach by the community to get the job done.
No, it doesn't. All you need is branch commit access and you start it yourself. If you don't have branch access, I'll happily give it to you immediately.
mariusvr wrote:Next year if the "backward compatibility document" goes ahead as planned there will be six entry fields for software compatibility in the JED. a) Joomla 1.0, b) Joomla 1.5 legacy, c) Joomla 1.5 native, d) Joomla 1.6, e) Joomla 1.7 and f) Joomla 1.8. Just look at how long it took for for 3rd party developers to adjust to Joomla 1.5 (even with a legacy layer). Joomla 1.6 severely breaks backward compatibility (we can agree to disagree on this). Just look at the list of changes needed to extensions that is growing every week (as we find out more about Joomla 1.6)
http://docs.joomla.org/Tutorial:Upgrade ... Joomla_1.6
You are making assumptions about the rate of change that are unjustified. If you are suggesting that 3 years worth of change are going to happen every 6 months ... well, I can't see that happening.

D
mariusvr wrote:History has shown that 3rd party developers (for whatever reasons) are incapable of adapting to a changing core API every 6 months.
History has shown some are incapable of changing every 5 years.
mariusvr wrote:Would not removing any of the depreciated functions from the next release, negatively effect the project? No not really.
Correct. It's been suggested, from now on, deprecation happens on the eve of an LTS. I believe that's a reasonable way to look at it.
mariusvr wrote:
Would removing functions and classes with only 6 months notice and continuing to change/rename core events/classes negatively effect 3rd party developers?
Yes it would.
See previous comment. Look at the classes that have been removed in 1.6 - most are now abandonware (eg DOMIT). Remember that 1.5 was released **3** years ago and the project warned those deprecated features would go, notwithstanding the fact that we had a beta out for over 6 months to allow for preparation. As I've said before, 3 year release cycles are bad because bringing in innovation is generally painful and bad (although, in order to bring the ACL, we needed to break BC with the old ACL, not much we could do about that, and it was done after a lengthy discussion on list). This is why it HAS been changed to 6 months so that we DON'T have these huge changes happening on every release. Not only that, ALL of the changes are always public in a central place so you have a say in whether or not you agree with them, providing you are alert. Finally, you also need to accept that other developers in the community may share different opinions on individual changes, and sometimes you are going to have a win, and sometimes. That's life working with community contributions.
mariusvr wrote:Let me know when "the project" is ready to fix the API/documentation and I will glady donate my time to get it fixed.
You are part of "the project". You don't need permission to do it.
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