About the design of the administration?

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About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:49 pm

The following image represent, an older design of the administration for Joomla 4 and the newer one.

I’m testing Joomla 4 right now and I find the design relatively weak (This is my own opinion & I like to have some input from the community)

On top, an older design that I find way superior from the newer one, at the bottom.
I will explain!
joomla-4-admin-design.jpg
OLDER DESIGN
Even if not perfect, the older design is clearer and more professional, the left & top main menus/actions are well delimited, all menus typo white on the same blue background with some control elements in a slightly different blue shade.

The important square Quick Menus are also in the same shades with an addition of different color (Green) to inform on the state of the “Updates” in this case.

Also, important for the branding, the Joomla Logo appear in is entirety and in his original color.

The Eyes focus on 2 element here, the main left & top menus & fonctions and the inside page (in a light neutral gray). Even the Quick menus, by it’s similarity with the main menus don’t become a distraction to the ensemble.

The light gray info page is acceptable.

NEW DESIGN
Sorry for the designer(s) behind it but it is important to see the weakness of this interface. I learn design with 2 high end designers in my life (and my father) and I thank them everyday to show me my mistakes and help me understand the logic behind the design.

Here no logic, no unification of the design of the top and left menu that have now 2 completely different scheme where the top menu now ressemble more the style of the infos page.

The left menu, lost in is corner, is now the main (Strong) focus point leaving the top menu, the quick icons and the infos page in a washout meli-melo of disparate blocks that have no real homogeneity.

The top white background is simply boring and the cute, lively Joomla logo is a simple dot in the corner.

All that in a uncertain palish light blue background that, I hope, will be replace by a neutral gray to permit the infos to stand out.

This is simply bad, between me and my 2 boss designers we cumulate close to 150 years of design, typography and branding and I hope, a good sens of what work and what don’t.

This, sadly, is simply not acceptable.

I LOVE Joomla and I Care to much to let that go
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by gws » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:09 pm

I prefer the older admin template too.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by wilsonge » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:09 pm

Thankyou for the opinions and reasoning here (and for contacting the portal too). We're aware there's a lot of work to be done. We recently revealed the progress of work at Joomla Day Florida - you can find the talk by Elisa here: https://youtu.be/C0doSVLgqnQ?t=1139 (The timestamp I've started at is the start of the bit of the dashboard view you've commented on)

Kind Regards,
George

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by gws » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:34 pm

Thanks for the link.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:11 am

Yes, I saw Elisa video before and I can feel the pressure as one of the Joomla Volunteers Team Leader of the J4 Backend Template Working Group
https://volunteers.joomla.org/teams/j4- ... king-group

I have some time that I can give to this great CMS.

I even try to be part of the group to help.

If you know a way I can do it ?

This is not coding, and I wonder how this group communicate together to prioritize and decide but I find weird that they endup with something like that.

It’s not to redo, only a bit of tweaking and direction. ;D
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by erick-b » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:18 am

I find the new admin design terrible and totally chaotic, I cannot imagine any customer using for years the old one to accept that one

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:31 pm

There you go,

• Remark that I add to the first level menu few items that NEED to be there and not hidden to wherever...
1- Global configuration
Note: This menu need to be front & frontmost, nobody will argue with me, I think :)

2- Extensions (Modules & plugins)
Note:Front & frontmost, and permit to reassemble the pieces (Modules, Plugins) that you can add to a Joomla site to customize it

• I also change the order to rebalance the importance of the menus

• I also put the Multilingual Sample Data where it should be in a normal left to right order of reading, before the Blog Sample as in a multilingual site the Blog data SHOULD NOT be installed before the Multilingual.

• I also, in the Multilingual data I Add hypothetical Direct links to the Languages Install and The Content Languages — We need to think to first time users, they are the one that will stick or not to Joomla

• Also I replace pale blue background by a neutral gray background to put the content stand out

• Also I take out all drop-shadow as this is a big no-no in flat design, not needed here anyway

/Users/Graf/Desktop/joomla-4-back-end.png


I will put also the plugins in the top Square buttons - Maybe playing a bit with those icons.
I will come back
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:38 pm

erick-b wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:18 am
I find the new admin design terrible and totally chaotic, I cannot imagine any customer using for years the old one to accept that one
Exactly, you can have the best CMS ever (What Joomla 4 is :D ) but if the newcomer get lost in a second class interface design it will negate all effort and will SYMPLY NOT BE USED by developer and first time users.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:04 pm

Version 2
Ok, now I’m happier :D

What Change ( Or What I forget to include) before:

• I replace the cool blue used for the top/left menu by the more warmer friendly blue use in the old presentation - Make the Backend Atmosphere less glacial ....

• Also I replace pale blue background by a neutral gray background to put the content stand out. By going neutral you got a better background that will not distort perception of images and attire attention — This is why Photoshop pros always use a neutral gray as background

• Remark that I add to the first level menu few items that NEED to be there and not hidden to wherever...
1- Global configuration
Note: This menu need to be front & frontmost, nobody will argue with me, I think :)

2- Extensions (Modules & plugins)
Note:Front & frontmost, and permit to reassemble the pieces (Modules, Plugins) that you can add to a Joomla site to customize it

• I also change the order to rebalance the importance of the left menu

• In the left menu I add a left triangle at the “System” item as I have no ideas for what reason, suddenly, we should have another menu system or different way to view content on this small menu to end up in the messier, unorganize System Page. It look like the designer when out of ideas and trow everything in that punch bol that make me sick already. The Golden Rules of successful interface design, homogeneity and predictability is just trow by the windows, common people?????

• I add a direct Top buttons to Plugins (Inside Extensions), This is as much important as Modules or even Component. Need to be first level.

• I also put the Multilingual Sample Data where it should be in a normal left to right order of reading, before the Blog Sample as in a multilingual site the Blog data SHOULD NOT be installed before the Multilingual.

• I also, in the Multilingual data I Add hypothetical Direct links to the Languages Install and The Content Languages — We need to think to first time users, they are the one that will stick or not to Joomla

• Also I take out all drop-shadow as this is a big no-no in flat design, not needed here anyway

I probably forget something ??

I also have a better web compression settings for the image compare to version 1
joomla-4-back-end-2.jpeg
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:36 pm

Sadly People I realize that Joomla 4 administration will probably show that amateurish design.

• Elisa Foltyn, Team Leader for the J4 Backend Template Working Group
https://volunteers.joomla.org/teams/j4- ... king-group
seem to drive that thing without any interrogation from the Joomla project ?????

Note: I’m really sorry to criticize your work but I love Joomla and I hate to see this new fantastic version and all the work put to it be negate by a poorly design UI/UX

• All that under the supervision and acceptance of the Department Coordinator of the Production Departement that oversees the J4 Backend Template Working Group Mr Harald Leithner
https://volunteers.joomla.org/departments/production


Board of Directors — > https://volunteers.joomla.org/board-of-directors

If nobody care about Joomla anymore, don’t bother !

Please, if you Love Joomla, Share this thread, Contact the devs, say what you think here!
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:50 pm

@Chacapamac agree the design is horrible.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by gws » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:55 pm

@Chacapamac I greatly appreciate what your trying to do. Have you managed to contact Elisa and tell her about your thoughts?

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:43 pm

No, and I will, Hopefully we have a discussion, I know when I was younger I was really protective of my “Design” until more experienced designers point to me obvious mistake I was doing and they where wright on the money, all the times.

Sadly I can see that the dice are trow when the Department Coordinator of the Production Department that oversees the J4 Backend Template Working Group , Mr Harald Leithner said to me, I quote:
Now its a bit late to say everything is bad because the template team has create a new modern template.
Sadly they see gold when I see real first time Joomla users and (as we see here) long time users being confronted with a substandard design for our cherish new Joomla 4.

To my knowledge, No tentative to poll the community about it was ever done and I get an answer like that telling me that it is to late, just let the rocket go even if the control panel is deficient.

Common Joomla people, this community that stay with you trough many years is your best asset, be smart.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by LordRod » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:29 pm

Chacapamac wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:43 pm

Sadly I can see that the dice are trow when the Department Coordinator of the Production Department that oversees the J4 Backend Template Working Group , Mr Harald Leithner said to me, I quote:
Now its a bit late to say everything is bad because the template team has create a new modern template.
I didn't say that the decision is made but the release plan for J4 really tight, george is planing a feature freeze for and of April/May so we get a stable release in November.

We searched a really long time for people creating the new backend template but the feedback was limited. We also published the layout 1.5 years ago. Not only in the JCM also on multiple events last year.
If you check the feed back in the comments of the JCM article you find out that most of the feedback is positive.

Btw. the design is a co work of Lukas Jardin and Elisa, they only created a proposal that has found enough support.

But once again any feedback is welcome, except personal offence.

Harald Leithner

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:56 am

In response to Harald Leithner
- I understand where you are in the project and bravo to all volunteers I know how much work they achieve so far ...
- We searched a really long time for people creating the new backend template but the feedback was limited.
Suggestion, did you ever think to use some kind of polling system to reach the community. Maybe add the possibility to new & old users to add their consentement to be poll from time to time at the creation or modification of their Joomla account. If I did receive some direct email from you guy, asking for help, I will be the first to participate. Sadly with our busy life it seem that, in my case, I’m late to the party.

For sure, I will be really nervous to release Joomla 4 that way. Joomla 3 was a polish system, not perfect, but really the best Joomla interface ever. Now We are going backward in the quality of the UI/UX and that will impact Joomla 4 overall acceptance.

• Hidden second levels major menu access that should Always being available at first level, like;
— Global Configuration on the left menu
— Extensions ( Modules & Plug ins) on the left menu and adding the Plugins to the quick icons
Less important.
— I order the left menu in a way that seem more natural, work wise to me anyway

• Another big point and big design mistake is that sudden shift of the menu “System” in the left menu that differs from ALL OTHERS menus ending in that sad blend really confusing page. It’s simple, I’m testing Joomla 4 for a while now ans EVERY TIME I need few second to get my bearing where to look. Simple, Just keep the left menu uniform by using the same menu system, eliminate the redundancy of items and the somewhat criss crossing of elements and focus points

• Placement, text and links to help beginners of the Multilingual Sample Data is also important

You guys find the colours dandy, cool, I don’t care, I will modify them for myself, but interface error are there to stay and have a good chance to keep users in a nice frustrated state and play again Joomla itself and all the effort of the team.

I personally think that big ameliorations can be achieve before the grand opening, many of this changes are cosmetics and I don’t believe a ton of coding either is necessary. I will contact Elysa but I have some kind of ringing in my hear that tell me that the J4 Backend Template Working Group will not be to enthusiast on what I think, but I will try.

One of the things that I learn in my 40 such years as designer that this is a group that have tendency to protect fiercely their creations. You only become a real good designer when you start to be able to detach yourself from it and listen to other around you, that can take quite a while to happen. Luckily for me I did have 2 renown boss designers that simply didn’t care for my feeling and always point me my mistakes. Now I thank them everyday.

Still Ready to help....
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by bembelimen » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:24 pm

Hello @Chacapamac,

Your feedback is really appreciated, but I have two favors to ask:

1. to take you serious, could you please stop presuming stuff about "the team", Elisa or Lukas? They don't "protect the creation fiercely", they are not amateurish or some kind of incompetent. So please stop with this personal attacks, which are not true.

2. as said on GitHub, please separate the template from the content. Most of your stuff is NOT template releated.

Now back to your points. I think, your assumptions about the menu structure (which is still not template related) are wrong. There are good reasonst to have e.g. the configuration removed. This menu entry is used probably in the beginning of the setup of the page. But when the site is up and running, you don't go very often to the configuration, so why let it take space (which makes it harder a11y-wise to navigate). Same for plugins...why do I need them on the first level? They will be set up and after that for daily work the link is useless.

Modules are still in the menu, they get even an update and are "content" now.

I, for myself, am also not to 100% satisfied with the system structure, that's why I created a PR, but saying that the System menu entry is not a good idea is, in my opinion, wrong. Having all this useless menu items, which where never used in the daily business, moved away from the menu has a big positive impact.

And last but not least, you want the global config back? No problem, you can edit the whole menu structure and create your own menus for every use case.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:54 pm

1. to take you serious, could you please stop presuming stuff about "the team", Elisa or Lukas? They don't "protect the creation fiercely", they are not amateurish or some kind of incompetent. So please stop with this personal attacks, which are not true.
I’m sorry and understand but nothing is personal here we are talking about design here not the people, I made big design mistake in my career and was not always happy to have somebody point the weak point to me. When I learn how to process the critics this is where I became a better Designer.

I will try turning all that to a more positive energy, it is obvious that these people put their heart out to help Joomla and I thank them for it. But Joomla is the main focus here.
Most of your stuff is NOT template released.
My stuff is about trying to get the best user experience for new and old Joomla user alike. Joomla is my concern.
There are good reasons to have e.g. the configuration removed. This menu entry is used probably in the beginning of the setup of the page. But when the site is up and running, you don't go very often to the configuration, so why let it take space
I understand your space concern, do we have a problem with space in the left menu ????
I understand that it show on the Control panel in the Quick Icons ( I will put the full name “Global Configuration” not only “Global” - let’s think Newbies here let’s be precise for this important link button)

If we have a left menu space problem, I guess I can survive without “Global Configuration in there.
If We don’t why taking it out?

I think It need to be at the first level, left menu because:
- First important Set of Settings Needed for any site
- You got the debug settings
- You got the offline/online switch
- You got the Cache control that can be modified for optimization in the life of the site
- Gzip Control
- and other settings that can be alter or experiment with
This is the Global Configuration after All

Same for plugins...why do I need them on the first level? They will be set up and after that for daily work the link is useless.
In my decade doing Joomla sites i can affirm you that I ALWAYS have to access the plugins to modify their parameter. More a site is complicated more you need to access them. Think at “Plugins” as important as Component or Modules, they are the 3 Joomla companions that make a Joomla web site, theses guys need to be top & foremost and even more needed for Power User.
I don’t see any reasons to NOT having Plugins at the first level.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:05 pm

@bembelimen
In fairness to Chacapamac

1. I don't think the "protect the creation fiercely" remark is derogatory. It is a fair generalisation of how designers often work.

2. As for "please separate the template from the content. Most of your stuff is NOT template releated" imho that is being pedantic. The look 'n' feel and the content are both Template related because they are both part of the Template design.


Chacapamac has been polite about why he thinks the Template design is bad. He has openly admitted that he has also made similar mistakes. All you have done is bounce back at him with passive aggressive comments and confused the use of Template with the look 'n' feel. Instead of coming up with passive aggressive comments and standard pacifying speak ... try addressing the problems that Chacapamac is speaking of.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by erick-b » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:04 am

I can not charge my clients the work to create a new template for the admin, and this one is unacceptable

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:03 pm

26370 views on this subject and so few comments.

As erick-b say:
I can not charge my clients the work to create a new template for the admin, and this one is unacceptable
As myself, I will be ashamed to give this to my clients without fixing it, unacceptable and mostly sad.

I contact directly Elisa, Team Leader in charge of the J4 Backend Template Working Group
No response, nothing....

Common Joomla people...?.
Joomla 4 will probably end-up with that weak interface that will negate all the fantastic work of all the volunteers to produce the best CMS ever.

Sadly, the best Hammer in the world will not be use with a square handle.

A bit of Nostradamus... :geek:
I personally think that Joomla is at a crucial turning point in it’s history. The quality of the core in 2019 make Joomla the best CMS in the world. The WP competition is far behind offering the same old crap. People and developers start notice.

Joomla 4 is THE VERSION that can easily bring back Joomla in the game. Missing that opportunity for a question of interface design will be disastrous for Joomla.

Now we need those 26370 views moving to a flow of support for your beloved CMS by flooding this post with your demands for a redesign of the Joomla 4 administration.

What is ask here is not a total redo but simple cosmetic work and the correction of few UI/UX errors that can be done easily before Joomla 4 release.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:34 pm

Methinks
Common Joomla people
should read
Come on Joomla people
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by erick-b » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:39 am

I have contacted Elisa on facebook ...

thanks
Last edited by erick-b on Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by gws » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:46 am

You get my support Chacapamac.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:58 pm

This is the contact page for Elisa Foltyn —> https://volunteers.joomla.org/joomlers/700-elisa-foltyn

Thanks everybody to care!
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by waarnemer » Fri May 03, 2019 12:07 pm

<my message>

Hi Elisa,

I found some time to check on the Alpha 8.

Imho the design of the admin template is too confusing to the average user. It even confuses me. I was only able to find the obvious stuff because I already know Joomla!.

It is not intuitive, not even for those that worked with Joomla! for centuries.
It is too far off the current admin template in 3.9.x.

I am aware a vertical menu to the right comes in more handy when using multiplatform (mobile, tablets, laptop, desktop - touch devices). But changing the ordering and location on where to find things is making it very hard to maintain a site.

Why are modules part of content? Why is it so hard to find the plugins? To simply name 2 out of the administrative top 10 activity stuff.

As said, I can see the reason for a vertical menu. But it would be better to keep current menu categories and ordering as it is in 3.9.x

I can see changes in colors, fonts, positioning and on to make things look new and modern. But please keep the structure as anyone is used too as much as possible to avoid confusion.

And please change the light blue background color to just white. I really cannot tell why but the light blue makes me think of cheap pyjamas. Sorry.

Thanks,




<as sent through the volunteers portal>

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by gws » Fri May 03, 2019 12:43 pm

I'll add my support to what waarnemer said, I downloaded alpha 8 for a test and was totally confused by this admin template.It really isn't fit for purpose as is. God help joomla if this goes ahead in its present form.
I also think it is about time the template team reach out to chapamac and accept his offer to help,joomla is always asking for volunteers and look what happens when a member offers help,shameful.

waarnemer
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by waarnemer » Fri May 03, 2019 6:36 pm

Okido... I was in contact with Elisa...
For one, she is not the design lead (anymore) even though that shows on the volunteers site.
Apparently Benjamin Trenkle is.
The design that comes with the Alpha8 now is not the one that will be used (bye bye Pyjama Blue, thank God)
The order in which all items and elements are separate from the actual template.
This order is not decided by the design team but the dev team.
There is no UX lead, they whish they had... volunteers?
The vertical menu was not the design teams Idea apparently.

That is answers from Elisa... let us no longer hunt her for the answers and solutions...

So.. we confuse template with actual setup of where things are... but since we cannot change this by template we need to bark to some developers I guess.

Maybe we need to move over to the Github realm of Joomla! with our complaints.

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Chacapamac
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Sat May 04, 2019 1:19 pm

Maybe we need to move over to the Github realm of Joomla! with our complaints.
This was done and no action seem to be in the pipe and this is the reason the complaint was push to this forum.
There is no UX lead, they which they had... volunteers?
I already done that with no response. I care about Joomla and will be happy to give time to the project.
The design that comes with the Alpha8 now is not the one that will be used
Please show me where we can see that new design?
That is answers from Elisa... let us no longer hunt her for the answers and solutions...
Let us just launch the rocket, even if we see obvious flaw in its construction ?
Can God help us?
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waarnemer
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by waarnemer » Mon May 06, 2019 8:34 am

@Chacapamac can you point me to that github issue?

erick-b
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by erick-b » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:46 am

I see no other solution than to make my own admin template, this one is absurd and unusable


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