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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by ooffick » Wed May 15, 2019 7:48 pm

Yes, something like that.
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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by sozzled » Wed May 15, 2019 8:36 pm

All forum moderators, regular contributors and long-time users of Joomla: I don't know what more can be written.

@ooffick has confirmed that (a) he is in a witness protection program and is prevented from making any comment until he's been released from the program, or (b) there's simply no point in providing any user feedback in order to improve the purpose of the forum, or (c) he's unaware of problems worthy of his attention.

Therefore, faced with continued and obstinate obstruction, I will save myself the trouble in making further suggestions about what I (and others) consider to be wrong with the forum. I'll leave it to others to draw their own conclusions.

I started this topic six months ago. It has gotten nowhere. I give up. Waste of time, really, on my part making any suggestions. From now on, people will continue to remain confused about what versions of Joomla are stable and supported:
Based on @ooffick's "summation", people might as well disregard what they read on the forum: people should expect to receive answers to questions about problems they encounter with, or seek help about how to continue to use, Joomla 1.5 and Joomla 2.5 for (at least) the next five, ten (or possibly 20 years).

In effect, @offick contradicts the so-called "official" information about J! 1.5. Note: there is no corresponding statement about end-of-support for J! 2.5. Therefore, based on this lack of "official information", I don't know when J! 2.5 end-of-support occurred (or will occur).

I will probably refer to this topic when people ask about J! 1.5 or J! 2.5 and leave it to others to provide the support that people expect from this forum. Semi-officially, at least, J! 1.5 and J! 2.5 are supported at least in terms of what the forum management and moderation team deem to be able to offer.
Last edited by sozzled on Wed May 15, 2019 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by jonBuckner1 » Wed May 15, 2019 8:48 pm

10/10 for persistence :)

I think the forum and jed issues you raise highlight how the volunteers in power seem a bit distant or removed from the community (not that they are necessarily)

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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by Webdongle » Wed May 15, 2019 9:08 pm

Or they have better things to do.
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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by sozzled » Wed May 15, 2019 9:12 pm

Fair enough. :)
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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by ooffick » Thu May 16, 2019 7:57 am

Thanks for the feedback and comments. It has been decided that the Joomla 1.5 forum as well as the Joomla 2.5 forum remain in the Joomla Forum.

I don't expect this to change anytime soon.

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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by Webdongle » Thu May 16, 2019 8:12 am

Perhaps change the title 'Joomla! Older Version Support' to something else because it suggests the older versions are supported? Maybe call it 'Joomla! Older Version Support (Archived)' ?

Addendum
Lock them as well perhaps?
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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by sozzled » Thu May 16, 2019 2:42 pm

@ooffick: I never suggested that the J! 1.5 and/or J! 2.5 forums should be removed in their entirety (or locked in their entirety). Where did anyone get that idea? If people were confused before about the reputable reliability for ongoing support for J! 1.5/2.5 then the "decision"—whatever it means—has muddied the waters ever more.

As for passive/defensive statements that begin with "it has been decided", decided by whom, exactly? How about a bit of transparency in the decision-making process. Let's identify the decision makers, hmm? :-\

I never asked, in this topic, for the closure of the J! 1.5/J! 2.5 forums. Some parts of those forums could be closed, yes, but I never requested their complete closure. I asked that they be treated in the same manner as the J! 1.0 forum (as far as the Board Index is concerned). See my post posting.php?mode=reply&f=7&t=967115#pr3557798 for a picture if what I suggested. Redact the list of sub-forums. Get the idea?

Does it really take three months of sitting around a table to decide business-as-usual rather than take the small risk that a few changes might actually improve matters? As I've written earlier, it's not worth our valuable time offering our feedback!

It's no wonder that grassroots support for the J! project, going forward, is withering if the management teams are leading from behind. "Right, chaps, it's over the wall we go. I'll be right behind you every step of the way!"
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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by sozzled » Thu May 16, 2019 7:56 pm

A simple change that would look no more complicated than this (perhaps):
jOlderForums.png
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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by ooffick » Sun May 26, 2019 6:36 pm

While it might not be what you where looking for, we have added clear messages that the Joomla 1.0 1.5, 2.5 are end of Life versions.

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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by sozzled » Sun May 26, 2019 6:54 pm

Thanks (only took us about six months to get this little way). You're right: it's not quite what I was seeking. My requests over the past six months have been aimed at reducing forum category clutter (and therefore the additional—albeit minor—inconvenience in having to scroll past the forum categories that, in my opinion, are not at the forefront of most forum users' minds) by "hiding" the eighteen forum categories that relate to J! 1.5 and J! 2.5.

Furthermore, there's a world of difference between something that is "at end of life" and something that is "unsupported". If something is "at end of life" this invites people to attempt to extend that life by seeking developmental changes to those products (e.g. security updates). If something is no longer supported that's plain and simple language for "that's it". So, no, the message is not clear.

Basically, I was seeking a tidying-up of the forum main board which, I think we all agree, is overcrowded. It's a bit like going into a restaurant, picking up a menu, and spending hours of time searching for what you may want only to discover when you ask questions about your selection to be informed that "sorry, that item is no longer available." Reminds me of the Monty Python spam sketch.

So what's the harm in hiding the forum sub-categories from the main menu? This is essentially the question that I have been asking for the past six months and I still don't see an answer that is directly related to that question?

What's the harm in hiding the forum sub-categories like this:

Image

???

It's a simple, uncomplicated five-minute change, isn't it?
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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by sozzled » Sun May 26, 2019 8:03 pm

Evidently, the words "end of life" are not resonating loudly in a lot of consciousnesses (as seen in the following screenshot).
jOlderForums2.png
The project termination dates—that is, end of life—for discontinued versions of J! are:

J! 2.5: 31 December 2014 (J! 2.5.28 was the last official release on 10 December 2014)
J! 1.5: 30 April 2012 (but, unofficially, "support" continued through to around September of that year even though no releases occurred after J! 1.5.26 on 27 March 2012)
J! 1.0: 22 July 2009 (J! 1.0.11 was the last official release on 11 October 2006, even though there was a late-coming security patch, J! 1.0.12, on 25 December 2006)

I'm unclear about whether end of life (or discontinued) means unsupported but, I guess, as we continually saw in The Terminator movies, terminated means "I'll be back!" ;D
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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by ooffick » Mon May 27, 2019 8:28 am

End of Life Dates can be found here:
https://docs.joomla.org/Joomla!_CMS_versions

For the moment, we are not removing the sub categories for Joomla 1.5 and Joomla 2.5 from the index.

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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by sozzled » Mon May 27, 2019 8:53 am

Geez: I'm not talking about removing forum categories. I'm talking about not advertising things on the Board Index. You still haven't understood difference, have you?

The J! 1.0 forum sub-categories are concealed/hidden/insert-verb-here. Who decided to hide the forum sub-categories for J! 1.0 (and why)? Why treat J! 1.0 differently from the other versions of Joomla on the forum Board Index? Why not reveal all the forum sub-categories for J! 1.0 on the Board Index (like J! 1.5)? Is J! 1.0 any different and, if so, what's so different about it? Extend the argument to what's so different about J! 1.5 compared to J! 2.5 and, so on, the difference between J! 2.5 and J! 3. At what point will these differences blur, fade, disappear with time? How much time? Seriously, 15 years from now?! (I believe that's what @ooffick actually stated, but who really knows whats going on.)

You still have not given any reason (or direct response) to my question. Basically, your response is "Go away, sozzled. We're not taking any any of your feedback seriously."

Why should we bother providing feedback when one has to wait months for any kind of direct response to that feedback! What does "end of life" mean, anyway? The forum, in my opinion, has, for too long, suffered from terminal dysfunction. Half the forum moderators have stopped participating and most of the foreign-language forum moderators have abandoned it years ago. Most of the Joomla CMS developers have abandoned the forum, too.

This forum is a cluttered mess that's out of touch with its target audience.
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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by mbabker » Mon May 27, 2019 1:49 pm

I'm in a "good" mood, so let's waste some of my time.

Your thread topic implies "these are categories which are no longer should be available, full stop". Archive them, lock them, burn them from the internet archives. That is how I read your topic, and that is consistent with what your past behavior has come across as to me. We have had this discussion in the past, you have made it quite clear you feel as though users of this forum should only be able to find support for whatever today's version of Joomla is. That fuels my belief that you are pushing the forum moderators to adapt the forum to match your desired structure, not a structure that is beneficial for the community and users of the software. Your consistent sarcastic, borderline snide, commentary does not help in your delivery in the grand scheme of things either.

This forum is a community discussion and support forum, emphasis on community. It is not staffed by individuals working from a call center in New York where OSM's headquarters are legally established. The community members providing support are not bound to respond "we are sorry, the version of Joomla you are using is no longer supported and we cannot provide you assistance on this forum".

I do agree the indexes of the 2.5 and 1.5 subforums can be hidden from the homepage. I'd honestly go so far as to say all subforum indexes should be hidden. They add little value in the grand scheme of things.

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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by Webdongle » Mon May 27, 2019 2:57 pm

I like to see the sub forums on the main board. It's would be a bit like that card game (where you try and match pairs) otherwise ... is it there? No ... then hide it and try again.
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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by sozzled » Mon May 27, 2019 8:07 pm

@mbabker: Thanks, Michael, for your reply. I'm always happy to see your involvement and seek your sagacious advice on matters where I wander out of my depth. While people may infer that my suggestions are intended to "lock ... [and] burn [outdated discussions] from the internet archives", this actually wasn't my intention and I want to quickly apologise to anyone who thinks otherwise.

Yes, we've had discussions in the past about the notion of quarantining outdated discussions and I accepted yours and Brian's advice that, "if these things offend" [me] that much, I should not get involved with them. I have taken this advice seriously and I don't involve myself in J! 1.0, J! 1.5 or J! 2.5 discussions except, perhaps, to inform people that these versions are very old and their chances of obtaining help are slim ... or to refer to existing topics on the forum that may provide some clues as to how they may obtain help.

To that extent, the forum provides a useful resource for people who rely on outdated versions of Joomla. I have no desire to see that change.

It's difficult, as I'm sure you can sympathise with me, to keep a lid on one's emotions and not allow personal feelings to erupt in out-of-character flame-throwing. I've tried to eliminate sarcasm from this discussion. I've tried to focus on the evidence. If (and where) I've done otherwise, I sincerely apologise: to you, personally, and to other members of the community.

mbabker wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 1:49 pm
I do agree the indexes of the 2.5 and 1.5 subforums can be hidden from the homepage. I'd honestly go so far as to say all subforum indexes should be hidden. They add little value in the grand scheme of things.
Thanks. That's basically all I was asking for. And, if "it has been decided" that they should not, then I would like to know of any reasons why not.

Best wishes,

... from a contrite and sincerely apologetic "sozzled"
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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by sozzled » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:33 pm

To weeks later ...
sozzled wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:07 pm
mbabker wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 1:49 pm
I do agree the indexes of the 2.5 and 1.5 subforums can be hidden from the homepage. I'd honestly go so far as to say all subforum indexes should be hidden. They add little value in the grand scheme of things.
Thanks. That's basically all I was asking for. And, if "it has been decided" that they should not, then I would like to know of any reasons why not.
So ... ? Has this been decided—to reject the feedback that several of us have offered—and, if it has been decided to reject our requests, can someone please give any good reasons to leaving things as they currently stand?
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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by ooffick » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:03 pm

The reasons is that there are still quite a few joomla site out there and we want to give those a place to ask questions.

Thank you for your suggestion, but the forum team is not implementing your suggestion at this stage.
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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by sozzled » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:12 pm

I never said that there should not be a place for people who own/manage/have-problems-with antiquated J! websites to seek help. Where did I write that?

You've entirely missed the point.

10 years from now—if the internet as we know it still exists and if this forum is still around—there will be at least one person who owns one Joomla 1.0 (or pre-J! 3.x) website who will want to ask questions. I will bet my house on it.

My point was not about the complete, absolute closure of forum categories that deal with antiquated J! website questions or problems, etc. Please do not try to characterise my suggestion that way.

I only suggested a meagre undertaking that the forum categories, as they are currently displayed on the Board Index, could be amalgamated and simplified like this:

Image

And, if they can't be amalgamated and simplified, in a format as I've suggested, why not? What's the problem?
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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by sozzled » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:09 pm

sozzled wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:12 pm
... and, if they can't be amalgamated and simplified, in a format as I've suggested, why not? What's the problem?
Still waiting for an answer.
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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by sozzled » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:32 pm

I think it's reasonable to conclude that we will not be getting an explanation about what would be perilously wrong about combining the separate listings relating to outdated versions of Joomla—that currently appear on the Board Index—into one listing (with the outdated versions shown as subforums of that one). Although I disagree with the current arrangement (and it's taken many months to overcome the solid resistance to achieve the few changes that have been made), it's probably time to draw a line under this matter and consign it to the bit bucket of what-might-have-beens.

I'm marking this topic as "resolved" because there is no chance in getting a different outcome and, probably, little chance of seeing an overhaul of the forum for the foreseeable future. Cheers and thanks. :)
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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by Webdongle » Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:11 pm

The attitude of @riffraff666 in viewtopic.php?f=615&t=974361 is surely indicative of why the forums (of eol Joomla versions) should be locked.
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Re: Thoughts about forum categories that have probably outlived their usefulness

Post by mbabker » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:58 pm

That thread is a prime example of the almost mob mentality that people get on this forum if someone posts and exposes that their site is not "whatever version of Joomla is current as of 4 minutes before creating your post" and "whatever version of PHP is current as of 4 minutes before creating your post". Yes, in a perfect world everyone would day-zero upgrade every bit of software in every bit of their stack and you would never have people running anything outdated. That is not reality, even as much as WordPress seems to think that having versioned software is disrespectful (no, seriously, there are people in their core circles that seem to think that version numbers are rude and users should never see them).

People run on outdated and unsupported software, that is a reality of a lot of businesses for whatever reason. It's not our job to dress down every person that comes into this forum looking for help on older software, and honestly I would suggest if the only thing you are going to do is badger someone into upgrading (without understanding the risks involved in said upgrade, because a lot of people don't grasp it), then don't comment on a thread. It's that simple. Also, for a lot of people, the priority is to fix a bug in their active website, not to perform a massive upgrade with a higher risk of breaking something and completely destroying their website in the process. It can also be entirely possible that a user is actively working on an upgrade for their website, but until said upgrade is complete they still need to keep their live website, well, live.

Have a little respect for the people coming to this forum.


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