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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by ies » Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:12 pm

Ok, I see. It is good to have a second template and everybody can provide an alternative template that will be very good for general use of specific cases.

But the problem for me is to make better the official template. The main template will be the one that will spread as screenshots, in tutorials, articles, books etc. I believe very strongly, as said again earlier in this topic, that the backend template will be the main promotional factor of Joomla 4. If you want to make Joomla 4 a success in the CMS world, just create the best possible backend template because it already has great functionality.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Magnytu2 » Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:26 pm

Although it is presented today as an alternative model, I want to believe that this second template will become the first.
It is I think much too late to improve the current template. They are too close to the Beta version.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:32 pm

ies wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:14 pm
...

I am not feeling good about this. Having to create two backend templates is too much. Why not having one but very good, if not perfect? Why not focus all the effort to one template?...
Because the devs that have the keys wont let anyone else have a say?
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by brian » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:27 am

Have you noticed how terrible it was in joomla 3 to have two templates?
Most/all features added since 3.5 dont even work with the second template - because its too difficult/time consuming for the limited developer resources to maintain two.

As for the Beautiful design you are talking about. Have you really looked closely at it. All those fancy widgets on the dashboard are just eye candy. They offer no real functionality. What on earth does 75% updated mean?

If the decision has been made to have two templates then I expect the same people who have supported that idea will also commit to it being fully accessible (a legal requirement) and will commit to it being supported for the next 3+years. Sadly I doubt that very much.

Its easy to moan, its harder to do.

Every single person commenting here could have submitted pull requests to "fix" things or at least tested those "fixes". For lots of little things it is very easy. I am on holiday at the moment and have submitted 36.

If I can then anyone can.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Magnytu2 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:31 am

Hi Brian, your code experience is probably right, and I have no doubt that it will be difficult to maintain two templates. But the second template depends on Joomshaper who template life for Joomla !. I see here a risk taking for them. Because if the template is not maintained, they will lose all credibility. But they will need all the information as the development of Joomla! 4.
For sweets, when you're neither a developer nor a web professional, you need them. Like any product, it takes a share of dreams and happiness. I do not want to see Joomla! no longer be used because no one wants to use a software, a CMS, tool because he is sad. I already had this experience with the website of my daughter's school.
I have tried several times to use Github. But it is a space where it is difficult to express oneself and to be understood. And it's the same difficulty to test and reassemble the problems of Joomla! 4. The Woklflow for example does not work. I do not even know or say it in a simple way without feeling rejected because the problem is already known ... The position of the buttons, sub-menu is illogical ... I do not know where and how to say it. .. Using Joomla! 4 you always have the impression of running, going down, but I'm working on a 23 "screen.The side menu on the left is a hell and I imagine it's difficult to use when we have several components installed. I made a site to say it ... but maybe nobody looks at it but it does not matter ... I would like to help you, but I do not know how, there is no protocol, or accessible method of test to the wear of the lambda users The pizza bug arrives and yet in France we do not know how to put it in place because we are few and often very far away.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by ies » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:59 am

brian wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:27 am
Every single person commenting here could have submitted pull requests to "fix" things or at least tested those "fixes". For lots of little things it is very easy. I am on holiday at the moment and have submitted 36.

If I can then anyone can.
This is not related to the backend template but I wanted to let you know the following:

I tried, for the first time, a few days before posting in this topic, to test the pull request #25979 (Schedule featured articles). https://github.com/joomla/joomla-cms/pull/25979

I have to say that I am very noob in helping in the code issues of Joomla and using the GitHub, but the whole procedure for testing a pull request, as described by the given documentation, is too much for me... :(

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:51 pm

Every single person commenting here could have submitted pull requests to "fix" things or at least tested those "fixes". For lots of little things it is very easy. I am on holiday at the moment and have submitted 36.

If I can then anyone can.
Same experience with me, I post requests in Github (Some related with Joomla 4 template), but the overall mechanic of really working in Github is still a mystery.

Anybody have a good simple tutorial?

Anyway, I’m not a deep coder, I can manage, but I’m not a coder, but at the design and ergonomic level I have a lot of experience.

Github seem to me as a tool for coder not UI-UX specialists?

Again ready to help, but how ?My only recourse is here, in this forum.

I’m working on a Dashboard design base on the last Alpha 11 release.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:52 pm

brian wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:27 am
...
Every single person commenting here could have submitted pull requests to "fix" things or at least tested those "fixes". ...
If I can then anyone can.
At one time according to mbabker even you couldn't submit PR's because the devs didn't like your criticism and excluded the two of you..

Later when all the major decisions were made then many were excluded because of the complexity to test it. Only recently has it been incorporated into the nightly builds ... far to late for anyone to suggest or submit PR's that will fix the base problems.

Even if someone took the time to produce a PR (going by the attitude of many devs) they will be wasting their time because most will be ignored just like the feedback here has.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:04 pm

This is my first fast try to make a Dashboard base on Alpha 11.
I keep the same original idea and configuration, only apply some UI/UX rules to it.

Modified:
— I put the right warm color (This is where people work after all...)
— Take out that hideous white top menu
— Homogenize the main buttons and their presentation in the dashboard
All same size, all can have an action (+) button if needed), you can add/remove them to your liking.
— Fixed that Sample Data with Warnings and links the way it should be (All my site are multilinguals & have a blog)
— Add Joomla links at bottom left
— Make that Add Dashboard module a bit more present (Background darker)

This is not a big Job to do, It’s not perfect but it can be easily apply to the existing Alpha 11 template.
Dashboard.jpg
I Will come back with the left menu... Nothing wrong with it, more about the logic behind it.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by mbabker » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:49 pm

If I'm going to be blunt here...

Every proposal (including the one that was eventually transformed into what is in core now) is putting way too much eye candy in the dashboard without consideration for what functionality Joomla actually has. How about making the dashboard useful instead of a Google Analytics knock off, because that's the impression I get with this latest "take over Joomla admin template development" push.

Everyone can talk about "oh this company is making the template and they will support it" and blah blah blah. The maker of the 3.0 templates had stopped contributing to core sometime after 3.1's release and here we are 6 years later still maintaining his work without him. The 1.6 templates that were semi-updated to support 3.0 were mostly done without the template authors, and both of those templates are long outdated by most accounts (and not properly supported with new features as Brian noted).

Focus on one template for core. Either make the design that is there now work, or let's spend another 2 years waiting for yet another template to be built and go through the QA process (including all the fighting about what functionality the template design is proposing that goes far beyond the scope of a template) before 4.0 ships. I'm sure everyone would be happy that the thing that has held up 4.0 shipping for 2 years at this point is the fact nobody can agree on what a template should look like so waiting for another 2 years is no big deal.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by ies » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:54 am

I have to say that the proposal of Chacapamac is better than what I see in version Alpha 11. It has less shadows, less borders, less boxes, less color changes, no redundant backgrounds etc. It is more relaxing to the eye. Very possibly it can be improved more.

mbabker said that some of us try to add eye candies to the template. Possibly we do, but the current problem with the backend template is that it is not a good template being pushed from some guys to be eye candy. At the moment, it is more like a bad template, so we have to make it look at least nice but without the eye candy.

I think that it is not hard to improve the core backend template keeping the original design idea, because the initial design as displayed in JMagazine was very nice. We simply need to just keep following the principles of the initial design because it was obvious (for me, at least) that in the latest versions someone was creating his own ideas about the design and was not following the rules.

Chacapamac already did some good improvements giving his first proposal. After a few more opinions and proposals from many people, it can be a very nice template for everyone. Also, the guys who created the initial backend template, should check periodically the template and give corrections to the design in order to keep it as it was proposed in the first place.

I like the philosophy of mbabker for keeping Joomla a serious and usable tool than a flashy one and I agree to keep improving the core template than creating a second one.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Lodder » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:17 am

ies wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:54 am
Also, the guys who created the initial backend template, should check periodically the template and give corrections to the design in order to keep it as it was proposed in the first place.
Are you referring to the people who designed this new template or the people who developed the very first template for J4 a couple of years ago?

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by ies » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:41 am

Lodder wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:17 am
ies wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:54 am
Also, the guys who created the initial backend template, should check periodically the template and give corrections to the design in order to keep it as it was proposed in the first place.
Are you referring to the people who designed this new template or the people who developed the very first template for J4 a couple of years ago?
(I was not clear enough.)
I am referring to the people who designed this new template.

I think it would be good the developers of the backend template to keep developing it and follow the corrections of the designers and some of the suggestions of the Joomlers.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:00 pm

Talking about the Dashboard...
Joomla 4 Alpha 11 have a pretty good system to transform and personalize easily the Dashboard with the little cog (configure) menu button on each group of infos in the dashboard.
edit-unpublish.jpg
This mean that you can personalize easily to show what your need and working wit permissions you can personalize by type of user or by user. You can have the dashboard you want.

Also, the action button (The green + button on my design) on certain elements permit to add an article, a module, a category, a user (that I forget on my first presentation). clicking on the associated blue main button bring you the main page for that item. Cool

Also, remark that I uniformalize the design of all buttons to permit the addition of an action buttons to them (if needed).
button.jpg
In my presentation I try to keep exactly the same functionality and also minimize the modification to permit to easily implement it in Joomla 4
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:30 pm

Dashboard with the missing “Users” and open menu (to have a look).
Dashboard-02.jpg
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by ies » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:41 pm

I think it would be better if the separating lines in the left menu and in the buttons of the "Site" section were without shading (not like embossed). It would be better like a single color line.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by brian » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:11 pm

Somebody above asked for a simple guide to testing.

I wrote this for Joomla 3 but it is almost the same for joomla 4 - the only difference is for some pr where it says npm changes you cant do it easily but thats a small number.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by gws » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:46 pm

@Brian should there be a link or am I missing something?

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by brian » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:14 pm

oops [ redacted ]
Last edited by toivo on Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: mod note: link removed
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by AlohaYoga » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:50 pm

I'm wondering why people are working so hard in trying to make Joomla like wordpress. If people wanted wordpress they would be on wordpress, not a copy. People here are on joomla and would like to be on joomla.

Sorry I haven't read all the pages on and this probably was covered.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by brian » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:32 am

Stupid rule meant the moderator removed the link. If someone searches my site they will find it and they are allowed to post it. Just as the issue tracker users regularly share it.

The rule is to prevent self promotion. I hardly think I could promote myself any more
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Magnytu2 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:49 am

Hello @brian, I think you are talking about me for the test. Indeed I have found your article. But I'm looking for a test procedure.
For example, if I have to test user management, I would be told:
- create a user group;
- apply rights ...;
- check the ids;
- etc ...
For workflows:
- create a 4-step workflow;
- check the passage from one stage to another;
- etc ...

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Magnytu2 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:00 pm

Here you will find the latest views for the installation part of the extensions. This model is really great, it brings a lot of freshness to Joomla!
The Joomla! will always be at the top, and now we will have a seller and design packaging.
https://dribbble.com/shots/7087023-Joom ... GagmyAQkPI

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by ies » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:27 pm

This template is really awesome (as said again earlier in this topic).

So, just to confirm, JoomShaper is creating for real an alternative backend template for Joomla 4. This means that there are some other guys who realized the importance of having a nice backend template in Joomla 4. But will it be a free template?

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Magnytu2 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:38 pm

Yes this template will be free because introduced as native in Joomla! 4 (as today there are two admin templates in Joomla! 3). Joomshaper works for the community and has deployed a team of 15 people, put in standbay several internal projects.
Today Joomla.org cosider this solution as an alternative solution. Personally I prefer that this is the default template. It would be more visual and seller, especially for the press and all training books, video, etc ...

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by ies » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:19 pm

Magnytu2 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:38 pm
Yes this template will be free because introduced as native in Joomla! 4 (as today there are two admin templates in Joomla! 3). Joomshaper works for the community and has deployed a team of 15 people, put in standbay several internal projects.
Today Joomla.org cosider this solution as an alternative solution. Personally I prefer that this is the default template. It would be more visual and seller, especially for the press and all training books, video, etc ...
I am glad to hear news like this. Thank you for creating this template!

On the other side, maybe it is good to have two templates being developed. Maybe this will create some kind of comparison, which is good. Two teams of development is also good because each team can have a different direction/philosophy and this can lead to new ideas.

I believe that at the end, Joomlers will decide which template will be the default.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by darb » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:47 am

I wonder is there a special Github or other tools for Joomla 4 development process? I dont know I have not info about that.

It would be good to have some common process, control and creativity engagement tools where Dribble, Github, Glip etc etc to work together for people that want to contribute in a controlled way even some people join late to the table. But I dont see any problem having a standard basic admin template and have another "customised" second admin template shipped with standard Joomla 4.

I think as WordPress and other CMS:s, people etc doing coping that Joomla can also take the best bits that works from other CMS and learn, improve. So if people are used to work with WordPress admin UX in a certain way of structure, menus, semantics, colours or what ever we should use that part too but also set our own "Joomla" standard with our benefits.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by brian » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:57 am

There is a massive difference between building a template in photoshop and building one that is robust enough to cope with the massive range of web hosting solutions and connection speeds that Joomla will install on.

There is a massive difference between building a template in photoshop and building one that is accessible and does not place barriers on anyone who wants to use it.

There is a massive difference between building a template in photoshop and building one that is usable on a low powered device (hint: anything other than the latest android/iphone really struggle with excessive javascript)

There is a massive difference between building a template in photoshop and building one that is usable in 80 different languages in both left to right and right to left orientations.

There is a massive difference between building a template in photoshop and building one that can be used in multiple web browsers with multiple operating systems.

There is a massive difference between building a template in photoshop and building one that is safe and secure.

There is a massive difference between building a template in photoshop and building one that has usable and useful information widgets.

There is a massive difference between building a template in photoshop and building one that extension developers can use without any (or very little) modification to their own code.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:13 pm

There is a massive difference
This is the reason I use Alpha 11 template and just redo the visual to be mostly only a work by CSS.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Hackwar » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:01 pm

ies wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:19 pm
Magnytu2 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:38 pm
Yes this template will be free because introduced as native in Joomla! 4 (as today there are two admin templates in Joomla! 3). Joomshaper works for the community and has deployed a team of 15 people, put in standbay several internal projects.
Today Joomla.org cosider this solution as an alternative solution. Personally I prefer that this is the default template. It would be more visual and seller, especially for the press and all training books, video, etc ...
I am glad to hear news like this. Thank you for creating this template!

On the other side, maybe it is good to have two templates being developed. Maybe this will create some kind of comparison, which is good. Two teams of development is also good because each team can have a different direction/philosophy and this can lead to new ideas.

I believe that at the end, Joomlers will decide which template will be the default.
There are no parallel developments taking place. Development for the Joomla 4 backend template started almost 3 years ago, was dropped for 2 years, was being worked on again and finished after 10 months in August. The community successfully frustrated all developers of this template up till now with outright insults and thus there will be no changes from me to that template anymore. If people want to improve the current template, you have another month to get that in. Beta is planned for October, nothing new is added after that.

In that situation a company showed up a week ago and is proposing yet another new template. Joomla is open for this, but will not delay releases.
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