Article - Page Builder / Editor

[aklisiewicz]

Looking recommendation for nice article layout.

I'm kinda picky because my needs are ften complex. For the course of lat month I went thorough several tools and so far none of them suit my needs. Some of them were page builders and editors. Here is the list:

- RS PAGE BUILDER
- SP PAGE BUILDER
- JA PAGE BUILDER
- JSN PAGE BUILDER
- JDEV PAGE BUILDER
- NICE PAGE

alsoe checked editors
- ARK
- JCE
- Tiny MCE + BOOTSTRAP Plugins

RS builder woudl be probably closest to my needs, however it has one big downside. Editor works in MODAL WINDOW and on my monitor it looks very small (or rather short) making it almost impossible to work on an article. I like however the fact that everything happens within default Joomla editor and the layout seems to be clean.

I need the extension whic his compatible with J4 allows to deal with CSS GRID (evenrtually Bootstrap is OK) and allows to use typical tools which are available through the Joomla editor (the bottom of the editor screen).

SP PAGE BUILDER SEEM TO BE MOST ADVANCED but has lots of bugs. Support is OK but super slow (I assumy they have to many customers VS support people)

JA PAGE builder seem to be ready for J$ and I like how the template builder is organized and works. This tool however is in development and is still missing basic components (or at least I could not find them). So placing i.e and ADIO or video compnent on the page would be an issue (unless you deal wit the HTML/CSS).

JSN PAGE builder look god as well but has big drawback. You cannot even test the framework without piad templates. The site is missleading (wasted lots of time trying for ind things they said should be there). Support is also very bad. They offer free trial for the templates but out of 3 I downloaded 2 did not work at all showing all kind of garbage.

NICE PAGE - is working nice on the desktop but when you transfer site to the sever all kinds of problems arrise. I could not get a menu to work, and it does not work with J4 (I got errors when trying to install extension). Also the only feature from Joomla you get is pacing a MODULE position. All other default editor features are hidden, which I do not lke at all. I have asked support several questions and posted many tickets and got answered only one (after few days), despite I paid Premium license.

JDEN is the one I have not tested much because the framework interface was giving me hard time displaying pages correctly. I gave up.

Tine MCE + Bootstrap seem to be some option but I was not able to find a demo to test it.

Other editors like ARK, JCE do not seem to have any Bootstrap/CSS GRID related functionality, but perhaps this is something I have not researched enough.

To be honest all tools available so far are not up to the task and they sound more like kinda work-around than real solutions. What I like the least is that (with the exception of RS-BUILDER) they all open outside of Joomla editor and prevent uesr from using all godies inside the editor screen.

----------------
Perhaps we could start a discussion here to figure out which tools are closest to make perfectly laid out articles, templates and pages.

I would appreciate your input.

[sozzled]

I don't think I can help (except to add my two cents' worth about using JCE Editor).

I see many of these "page builder" discussions and, to be honest, I have no idea what they do. So, it may help the discussion if someone or some people could help us understand what is all the hype about "page builders"?

None of the books in my library recommend "page builders" to create profitable websites in Joomla! In fact, I have nothing in my library that recommends any specific template. Basically, the books I own (and I own several) say "there are millions of templates available that you can choose".

I use a few different templates in my work. I create content with Joomla categories, articles and menus. I don't know what benefits "page builders" offer that are superior to using one or another template, Joomla categories/articles and menus. If someone could explain how these "page builders" work (are they somehow different to templates) then I may understand more about these kinds of discussions.

[Per Yngve Berg]

Make a editorcontent.css file populated with the Bootstrap classes. It will show in the css drop-down in the JCE Editor.

[aklisiewicz]

I was kinda thinking about this but not sure how this would work for my editors who know nothing about HTML/CSS

What you think about Article Templater ? I haven't tested this one yet

I need responsive articles so not sure which would be the best way to go. I do not need muich fancy stuuuf but need nice layouts. The problem is that it needs to show up right on multiple devices and so far many tools keep failing. Some of them work on this part but fail on another. It is so hard to find something that really works 100%.

[aklisiewicz]

I don't think I can help (except to add my two cents' worth about using JCE Editor).

I see many of these "page builder" discussions and, to be honest, I have no idea what they do. So, it may help the discussion if someone or some people could help us understand what is all the hype about "page builders"?

None of the books in my library recommend "page builders" to create profitable websites in Joomla! In fact, I have nothing in my library that recommends any specific template. Basically, the books I own (and I own several) say "there are millions of templates available that you can choose".

I use a few different templates in my work. I create content with Joomla categories, articles and menus. I don't know what benefits "page builders" offer that are superior to using one or another template, Joomla categories/articles and menus. If someone could explain how these "page builders" work (are they somehow different to templates) then I may understand more about these kinds of discussions.

for the most part it is about responsive design
I tried some articvles in plain Joomla editor and whaile they display OK, they are so old fashioned...
When you start adding Elements (ie. video, audio, bulleted lists etc it gets complicated

[aklisiewicz]

Make a editorcontent.css file populated with the Bootstrap classes. It will show in the css drop-down in the JCE Editor.

any more details about this solution ?
possibly video

[sozzled]

Thanks, @aklisiewicz. I think there are several frameworks that provide good responsive design without the need for these "page builder" things. If you think they're a good thing then that's OK. I have no need for them.

[aklisiewicz]

what solutions
can you elaborate ?

[aklisiewicz]

nay videos or tutorials on this ?

[Webdongle]

Custom CSS File - Use a custom CSS file specified in the Custom CSS File field

https://www.joomlacontenteditor.net/sup ... figuration

[Per Yngve Berg]

Here is the file I use for Bootstrap 2:

Code: Select all

.row-fluid {}
.span1 {}
.span2 {}
.span3 {}
.span4 {}
.span5 {}
.span6 {}
.span7 {}
.span8 {}
.span9 {}
.span10 {}
.span11 {}
.span12 {}
.text-left {}
.text-center {}
.text-right {}
img-rounded {}
.img-circle {}
.img-polaroid {}
.pull-left {}
.pull-right {}

[sozzled]

Basically, my take-out from reading @Per and @Webdongle, is that these "page builder" things are bloatware. In other words, anything that people can do with a stock-standard, vanilla-flavoured template (e.g Protostar) that has all that responsive design built-in BTW, plus a bit of CSS know-how (perhaps, but it's not obligatory) is just as good, or maybe better, that spending all that time (and money) on a "page builder" thingamajig.

I asked if someone could explain to me how these "page builder" whatchamacallits were, in any way, superior to using a good template design with standard J! core components. Because no-one has addressed that question with a convincing argument, I conclude that "page builders" are a glorified nothing-to-see-here.

[toivo]

Page builders have their definite place in the web industry. They suit environments where you have a number of author editors who require a degree of freedom but do not need or want to know much about HTML and CSS. That way a company can achieve a professional look and feel of their website with a relatively small investment.

Similar results can be achieved when a designer/webmaster selects a responsive framework, creates a few template overrides and defines the editor profiles of the team for example in JCE, making a predefined set of Bootstrap CSS classes easily accessible, as recommended by @Per Yngve Berg.

In both scenarios the usual bits of training, monitoring, workflow and Quality Control (QC) will guarantee the results.

"Horses for courses" - everything depends on the prior experience, the actual requirements and also on medium term plans. Both tools and teams tend to be overhauled every two to three years in any case.

The page builder extensions I checked a couple of years ago stored data in a proprietary format before generating the HTML and CSS. One page builder stored their pseudo code in the cloud, from where the plugin retrieved it for rendering each page.

If you think you may need to migrate the internal code generated by page builders to another page builder or all the way to HTML and CSS at some stage, you will need to develop a conversion script. Alternatively, the web pages need to be stripped to plain text and images before complete restyling, similar to what we usually do before web pages originating in Microsoft Word can be published.

[petern]

Basically, my take-out from reading @Per and @Webdongle, is that these "page builder" things are bloatware. In other words, anything that people can do with a stock-standard, vanilla-flavoured template (e.g Protostar) that has all that responsive design built-in BTW, plus a bit of CSS know-how (perhaps, but it's not obligatory) is just as good, or maybe better, that spending all that time (and money) on a "page builder" thingamajig.

I asked if someone could explain to me how these "page builder" whatchamacallits were, in any way, superior to using a good template design with standard J! core components. Because no-one has addressed that question with a convincing argument, I conclude that "page builders" are a glorified nothing-to-see-here.

To be honest why did you bother to answer the question at all ?

To say you don't have any experience in page builders in general, or any useful understanding of how they are used in real life, and then based on that contend that "they are bloatware" seems somewhat self absorbed...

...But then if somebody explains to you what PageBuilders are, you will then be able to give your expert opinion on them ? OK.

I sometimes despair at the level of discourse in the Joomla community. Its often all tech, ego, and often little real world experience.

Joomla attracts this sort of thinking though, because in many ways Joomla itself is still that way - even in V4 - it still doesn't have content 'types' (article being the first, but then events, employees, etc etc. It just has a hacked on (by a third party initial) custom field capability added to 'Article Categories'.

Custom fields are great to have as a pretend CCK, but poorly integrated with future extensibility in mind - Think about what it could be - Articles, Categories, Types and Custom fields based on Types with multiple categories in them. Joomla 3 is nearly 10 years old btw and 4 has not changed this structure. Wordpress had it since the early days.

Anyhow, enough of 'experts' and short sightedness and my pet peeves with Joomla - we still love it and use it as a platform.

To the topic at hand,

Most Joomla pagebuilders are immature compared to their wordpress counterparts, or overly complex because Joomla devs make them for themselves (generally being theme developers) or for us Developers, and NOT our clients.

The one I have been hoping would change all that is T4 PageBuilder, but it gets more complex as each beta drops and they still dont show modules except as a grey box (not the actual content) and have no Blog/Article List Blocks that can be customised (as one can in Wordpress tools like Oxygen for instance).

I reviewed most of the tools above in the OPS email and found some that helped some of my clients, but all of them were janky in some way or another.

We need a simple to use page builder for our Customers to use, that is visually accurate, and supports Bootstrap 4 (in my view the best standard template going forward for now).

Then they can happily build their marketing pages, while we use components and modules in templates to do the heavily lifting.

I would love this discussion to continue with people who have experience or needs in this PageBuilder area, maybe we can get some sort of wish list together and go-fund me an editor that will suit..

[Webdongle]

...

Most Joomla pagebuilders are immature compared to their wordpress counterparts,...

That's because wordpress doesn't have enough configuration options as Joomla. Wordpress is less complex there fore the addons for it need to compensate for wordpress's lack of ingenuity.

[petern]

...

Most Joomla pagebuilders are immature compared to their wordpress counterparts,...

That's because wordpress doesn't have enough configuration options as Joomla. Wordpress is less complex there fore the addons for it need to compensate for wordpress's lack of ingenuity.

No - its because they are not as well developed. And that is because the market is tiny compared to Wordpress. If you can tell me one pagebuilder for Joomla that is as complete for customers to use as Divi, or Oxygen Builder I'll buy it. I am pretty sure I have tried them all.

There is nothing in Joomla that is as configurable and extendable as Woocomerce for instance.

If you have developed in wordpress you'll find it has a very customisable architecture. A great API, and everything is available everywhere. Its easy to program in. Types, Tags, filters are easily apllied in a call that loads a list of articles in one line of code, from anywhere.

However ein wordpress verything is stored in a couple of tables. Its still a blog. Joomla has mini com_ applications within it which makes it much more robust. Wordpress is not lacking ingenuity though - far from it. Its brilliant at what it does.

Joomla just needs to get its core stuff right and it can then head into Drupal territory, and also take the more complicated wordpress sites back.

[darb]

Custom fields are great to have as a pretend CCK, but poorly integrated with future extensibility in mind - Think about what it could be - Articles, Categories, Types and Custom fields based on Types with multiple categories in them. Joomla 3 is nearly 10 years old btw and 4 has not changed this structure. Wordpress had it since the early days.

If you have developed in wordpress you'll find it has a very customisable architecture. A great API, and everything is available everywhere. Its easy to program in. Types, Tags, filters are easily apllied in a call that loads a list of articles in one line of code, from anywhere.

Joomla just needs to get its core stuff right and it can then head into Drupal territory, and also take the more complicated wordpress sites back.

Agree..

[AMurray]

I personally use SP Page Builder. (joomshaper) with Helix Ultimate (also Joomshaper). Suits my needs very well and have not encountered any bugs or major problems with its use.

[ChrisASCA]

Big thumbs up in agreement with aklisiewicz and petern
Thanks so much for putting into words what i have been finding in the last few years too.
While I would never disagree with anyone else on the Joomla forums as all opinions are valid in a community based project such as joomla, petern is coming from the same place as I am.
I have been fortunate enough to benefit from the kind and brilliant help offered by Per in many of his amazing post replies over the years for which I will keep being grateful for but I personally and many of the staff at work will never get near this skillset and knowledge.
For me, Page builders have the potential to take a huge amount of work off of me (especially as I have the design flare and creative outlook of a colourblind yorkshireman on a misrable, rainy, foggy moor in the dark).
The page builders I have looked at are potentially incredible tools to get non-coders up and running and making clean, modern, crisp looking articles in relatively quick time without knowing the code they are generating in the background. In a few moments the drag and drop style creation, added to some good words and professional images creates some very impressive and complicated 'looking' articles in minutes.

'looking' is the key word for me here though and the downside of them still as Sozzled's reference to bloatware holds a bit of weight here and also the immaturity and basics of what can be done becomes clear once the initial amazement of aesthetic look and time saving fades.

To me they are such a nearly but not quite thing and that's what hooks you and I think what petern is so eager to complete. My love for Joomla comes from its position in the marketplace. I feel you can do so much more than WordPress when your organisational needs for article access rights gets complex the bigger you grow, yet the page builders don't cover that well enough and you are left falling short unless you have the needed skill levels.

I argue with myself as to the best use of my time. Invest time in learning to do things the way Sozzled or Pers suggest and do it myself in our organisation and be the one point of failure if ever i leave or provide Page Builders to staff who have design flare and time to create modern looking layout of content but then come back to me when we have a complicated access right display issue or want more than the blog style view for either public or 1 level registered articles.

I'd love to see a core Joomla page/article builder component built to serve and understand all the clever complexities of Joomla that I love and can get from Joomla Articles but with that speed of creating modern, beautiful, crisp design of Page Builders.

I agree somewhat with Sozzled that Joomla articles do all you need them to do but I'm north of 45yrs old now and its hard to argue that WordPress style articles or the Page Builder Joomla articles aren't what the modern webpage visiting world wants from its content pages these days. Unfortunately It IS how it looks nowadays NOT what it says as folk don't read anything in-depth anymore - including this post probably

Support is a big issue with the Page Builder providers - it can take days to hear back on a simple thing such as expected behaviour or supporting standard Joomla Access Levels displaying content or not and then you mostly just get added to an ever increasing wish or bug list.

For anyone running a live site its a nightmare. I haven't used RS Pages yet but am blown away by their level of support and products such as RS Firewall etc. Maybe should give them a try.

I'm coming mainly from the Artisteer then Themler into now Nicepage pathway as my history. My respect is massive to the folks there that have the genius to create these products at all but my frustration comes from them having the intelligence to build them but then suddenly stopping their support of one product and moving on to the new project in their heads. I follow them to that but then wonder when they will move on again before really finishing, cracking and completing what they started.

Artisteer for me was a brilliant template building tool. Was solid, supported and a game changer for my skills. Next came Themler and that again was potentially amazing. Very big, very comprehensive in what it could achieve but a great beast to enjoy a wrestle with as the options went from simple to complex...

Then suddenly the team shifted to Nicepage. Again, genius to me for what you could do quickly and 'easily' but lacking all the sophistication of Joomla's core stuff. I get that I am sounding a little self serving and 'how dare they?' here but it is really out of being blown away initially by the capability then left flat by it not doing the stuff a core Joomla article can either.

Great if you own a small sole trader or partnership business and nearly all of your content is public with some simple Members only stuff but anything bigger and its so far behind the benefits of Joomla its unreal.

Which is a real shame as I feel like the village idiot complaining about the kind smart people in town who create things I couldn't even dream of.

I'm rambling now I feel sorry but to finish up.

I feel Page builders have a great and important place offering something/somewhere between perhaps what Sozzled can create easily himself and what someone like myself could never dream of creating content to look like and in a modern way too.

If the gap can be filled correctly it would be a huge addition to the Joomla toolset for many, many potential users who currently are restricted by WordPress but love the styling you get on articles with it easily.

I would contribute to any crowd funded Joomla led page builder addition to articles for sure. They are an interesting area to watch develop for sure if you see a need for them.

Thanks to all who contribute to anything Joomla, especially the many regulars over the years. I think it is an amazing product, community and part of the website world and hope it goes from strength to strength in the future.

I hope my points come across as intended and at worst I might have cured insomnia for some in the thread.

My only 2 goals are to share comments with fellow joomla users respectfully and not get taken down quicker than a Canberra temperature in the winter by Sozzled. The length of time Sozzled has been on the forum and the volume of advice, opinion, posts and time he has given over the years - my hat is off to you sir!!! Genuinely, honestly and gratefully. Thanks for everything.

All the best

[sozzled]

Not a problem, mate.