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41global
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Why is Joomla always ignored!

Post by 41global » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:39 pm

Hey Joomla Family,

This is sort of a rant so please excuse me and hopefully I put this in the correct category. Why is Joomla always ignored and never mentioned in alot of blog postings? I am jumping into the SEO business and follow blogs such as SEJournal and others and all they blog about is wordpress wordpress wordpress. They are always saying how easy Wordpress is to use, maybe i'm biased because I've been a Joomla user for over a decade but installation/management of Joomla is the same to me.

This was a response to me from a blog that posted Wordpress best CMS for SEO "Appreciate your feedback! Joomla is indeed a great flexible alternative to WordPress if you don’t mind the more complex setup." HOW IS JOOMLA COMPLEX?

I always think about this but this morning I get started to read latest blogs and this new post was published https://www.searchenginejournal.com/wor ... eo/338275/
which is what got me upset again lol. I include SH404SEF with all my sites and SEO is totally okay.

Sorry again for the rant, I understand Wordpress is the most popular but would be great to see some Joomla news on some of these popular sites.
Last edited by toivo on Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why is Joomla always ignored!

Post by waarnemer » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:37 pm

even without SH you'd do fine.

Anyway.. the article is pretty biassed...
all the 10 bullet points are as valid for any other CMS in the (SERPS) list the author claims to be true..

I mean how knowledgable is the author if she puts ruby on rails, laravel on a list with CMS's.
Where AEM is hitting higher than anything which is virtually impossible with just a less than 1% marketshare..
Let alone AEM costing you amounts that exceed your imagination on licensing...

AEM is good, but even AEM i would consider a framework or big bunch od un organized features... you still have to code all... it is somewhere between framework and cms...

I will not mention all other stupid comparissons in the list of 21



Let's put it this way... WP has the market. In that market are the ignorant. The ones that get their sites for nothing or nearly nothing...
That is a good write isn't it... we are all looking for bargains... in two years time, these people are disapointed... they start to see the limits... the company grows, wp cannot grow along... as it isn't made to be managed by more than one person.... and big companies.. oh well usually a lot of persons...

This disapointment leads these people away from open source... imho WP is a threat to open source in the long run...

But (online) magazines need to sell articles... so they write crappy articles that people wanna read...

buzz words.. cheap, free, eazy, no effort... all you can eat, discount..... that is how it works in marketing, that how it works in Automattik the company behind WP....

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Re: Why is Joomla always ignored!

Post by w360 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:48 pm

In the case of that post its because WordPress generates more traffic and reaches a bigger audience.

As they are working with SEO and want to attract as many links as possible Joomla is not their best bet to write about.

This again is because of Joomla's declining market share.

My 2 cents is that not enough is done to promote Joomlas key selling points, where a lot of the functionality WordPress has to use an extension to accomplice, is already built-in.

Like multilanguage support and native overwrites of variables. Just to name one.

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Re: Why is Joomla always ignored!

Post by darb » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:02 pm

And this is what average Joe believe in and as they say about the accuracy of their data collection:
The Best CMS for SEO in 2019 is…Not having a CMS at all!? That’s right. According to the data, 58% of the ranking results aren’t even using a Content Management System (CMS).
That mean that you cant trace many of the Joomla and other CMS s that hide their tracking appearance to this kind of tests and that's why you cant prove that this is the truth and the real fact. The real professionals don't want to show their content system to these robots and they also probably are the best to care about professional SEO.

What Joomla need to do is to be more proactive and marketing its great CMS in comparison to other different CMS/web tools on the market.

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Re: Why is Joomla always ignored!

Post by deleted user » Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:11 pm

41global wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:39 pm
This was a response to me from a blog that posted Wordpress best CMS for SEO "Appreciate your feedback! Joomla is indeed a great flexible alternative to WordPress if you don’t mind the more complex setup." HOW IS JOOMLA COMPLEX?
Joomla is indeed a more complex system out-of-the-box compared to WordPress, because WordPress is at its heart a blogging platform with general purpose CMS functionality bolted on as an afterthought, whereas Joomla has always been designed as a general purpose CMS. There are capabilities that exist out-of-the-box with Joomla that require plugins in WordPress, and the Joomla administrative interface is a bit more complex to navigate than WordPress' (in part because edit screens are much more loaded up with options). So that critique is actually pretty fair, but that critique should also be quantified and further explained when used.

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Re: Why is Joomla always ignored!

Post by Mojsplet » Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:48 am

Joomla has just one big problem. And as long this problem is here, Joomla will just fail in CMS market.
It is how versions evolve!
Lets take 1.5 to 3. (and interesting...with 3 to 4 will be the same)
It was painfull migration. Ok, we expect big changes, so migration is necessary. But what changes? Not much.
We got custom fields. Great. But is just some data, unrelated as should be to articles. You cant filter articles related to custom fields.
We got microdata. Great. But you cant control it without overrides.
Most of components didnt change. They are just bad copyes of version 1.
We all say, Joomla has all you need. Realy?
Contact form? Almost useles and not changing from version 1.0.
Banners? Who needs them and not changing from version 1.0.
Multilang? Its just endles duplication.
Search? Not changing from version 1.5.
We got tags. yey. Just useles.
Core modules? not changing from version 1.5.

If you want something done as it should be, you must use third party plugin/component. So what is diferent here from WP?
If you propose some much needed fuctionality, they say use override or third party extension. Sure, but then I can just use WP and have same endless overrides and third party plugins.

So in what manner is Joomla better than WP? Think twice.

Now we are all in great expetation in Joomla 4. Great. But as I can see, is all same 3 with new admin template. For what biger decision is if there is better to put menu on left or top. And again if someone sugest something good, they just say my way or highway.

End point. If you integrate some function in CMS, do it right. And if you update this function, ask real users if this is what they want.
Otherwise just start big marketing campain as wp did and you can sell anything :) They will adopt.

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Re: Why is Joomla always ignored!

Post by waarnemer » Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:29 pm

@Mojsplet

For a loyt I can take your comment as opinion... free to have one..

One thing though....
Multilang? Its just endles duplication.
This shows you are not aware of how SEO/SEF works on multilingual content or at least do not know how to set this up properly.

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Re: Why is Joomla always ignored!

Post by darb » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:15 pm

"Appreciate your feedback! Joomla is indeed a great flexible alternative to WordPress if you don’t mind the more complex setup." HOW IS JOOMLA COMPLEX?
This is just WP bullSh... proactive marketing from people that are from the WP sect to infiltrate for example this forum too with stupid forum post that say I want to move to Joomla and have a WP site xxxx and but its complex bl a bl a etc so thats just foot soldiers going out on marketing efforts to swing Joomla first timers here to go to WP sites from here when they see some talks about WP and its easy and bl a bl a

We have be very much aware about this tactic especially from WP people coming here and robots...

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Re: Why is Joomla always ignored!

Post by deleted user » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:18 pm

darb wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:15 pm
"Appreciate your feedback! Joomla is indeed a great flexible alternative to WordPress if you don’t mind the more complex setup." HOW IS JOOMLA COMPLEX?
This is just WP bullSh... proactive marketing from people that are from the WP sect to infiltrate for example this forum too with stupid forum post that say I want to move to Joomla and have a WP site xxxx and but its complex bl a bl a etc so thats just foot soldiers going out on marketing efforts to swing Joomla first timers here to go to WP sites from here when they see some talks about WP and its easy and bl a bl a

We have be very much aware about this tactic especially from WP people coming here and robots...
You know, one of the best ways to learn and improve is by listening to valid critiques of your work. Writing people off because you see their critiques as BS is quite frankly a worse reflection on you than the "WP people coming here and robots".

Once again, a Joomla is indeed much more complex to setup and maintain out-of-the-box than WordPress is. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But, that single point alone does not mean either Joomla or WordPress is better than the other.

Why is it perfectly valid for Joomla to be more complex than WordPress?

- Out-of-the-box flexible ACL system: WordPress has limited roles and without the ability to write code or using a carefully chosen plugin, WordPress offers a limited access control system at best.
- Out-of-the-box internationalization support: WordPress doesn't do multi-language out-of-the-box, Joomla does; again, programming experience or a carefully chosen plugin is needed to make this work.
- Out-of-the-box functionality in general: With WordPress, you have a limited set of capabilities to build a website available without any sort of add-on functionality as WordPress was originally designed as a blog which evolved into a sorta kinda CMS platform; Joomla has a lot more capabilities out of the box as it has always been developed as a CMS platform
- Maintenance philosophies: WordPress goes for a "decisions over options" approach, whereas Joomla has options for options of options. You can override those decisions in WordPress if you're a developer or find a plugin that helps you accomplish your goal, whereas in Joomla there are a lot of options in the UI that can keep someone from needing more extensions or getting into the code (i.e. layout overrides). As a consequence of this, it means that there is more cognitive overhead needed to understand and follow the Joomla administrative interface in comparison to that from WordPress.

So, do yourself a favor, and stop writing off any "WordPress is better than Joomla" or "Joomla is harder than WordPress" posting as a bunch of BS. Feel free to make counterarguments and refute points that are complete lies, but 100% dismissal of valid concerns and criticism just means you're living in an isolated vacuum.

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Re: Why is Joomla always ignored!

Post by sozzled » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:48 pm

I'm unsure why this discussion topic is located in the Community Blog Discussions forum category because I cannot see where is the "Community Blog" article that relates to the subject. Maybe it would have been better if the topic had been moved to The Lounge where many of these J! vs WP polemics are "debated" (which is a euphemistic way of saying that they're used by spam merchants to peddle their piffle).

@mbabker makes good points about the virtues/merits/benefits in choosing J! and I completely share his sentiments. However, while it's sometimes a little difficult for me to understand what @darb writes and what are his motives for mentioning WP in our discussions, I don't think that @darb was necessarily writing off the WP-is-better-than-J! crowd as a waste of space.

I personally have no time for WP in my life. That's not because I think one CMS is "better" than another; it's because I haven't bothered to invest my time in another CMS apart from J!. Similarly, I don't have time to invest in the plethora of social networking products that litter the internet. I use Twitter and Facebook (sparingly) and that's about the extent of it. I use J! and that's about the extent of it, too.

We mustn't write-off comparisons between J! and other CMS as promoting any one of them; nor should we label these comparisons [posted on this forum] and BS, either. As @mbabker correctly points out, if someone is able to make counterarguments that refute assertions made in those comparisons, then it's better to make the counterarguments with reasoned, respectful debate.

I do, however, object to the ongoing the abuse of this forum that allows blatant advertising from one-time "users", especially in connection with all of those "I am thinking about migrating from brand-X to J!" topics that are only used to advertise non-J! websites. I also disagree with the forum moderators' approach in handling those "questions"—an approach which IMO is akin to littering—"intervening" only to remove the URLs contained within those forum posts.

I don't think "Joomla! is [always] ignored" but there's a lot in this forum that is overlooked. In conclusion, I suppose it's fair to say that all of us have our own pet avocation. Some people like to look introspectively at how well J! is projected into the CMS market [compared to other CMS products] and some people, like me, are repulsed by forum spam.
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Re: Why is Joomla always ignored!

Post by darb » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:05 pm

@ mbabker yes I have WP and Joomla! sites to set up and maintain during the years and now since yearly J 1.0 days.

I don't agree with you that its easier to set up WP than Joomla out-of-the-box but thats my vacuum experience.

Did you see the real world compare test where Joomla, Drupal and Wordpress teams had the same real world hands on competition to create a standard "complex" web site?

The results disappear from the web when it was not in favour of some of these CMS.

Thats the only real world tests that I have seen that really compare 3 different CMS in a real world test with the same conditions to deliver. So these test will never come back :D

I have tested and experienced a lot of other CMS too like Drupal, Typo3, Umbraco, DotNetNuke too.
Why is it perfectly valid for Joomla to be more complex than WordPress?

- Out-of-the-box flexible ACL system: WordPress has limited roles and without the ability to write code or using a carefully chosen plugin, WordPress offers a limited access control system at best.
- Out-of-the-box internationalization support: WordPress doesn't do multi-language out-of-the-box, Joomla does; again, programming experience or a carefully chosen plugin is needed to make this work.
- Out-of-the-box functionality in general: With WordPress, you have a limited set of capabilities to build a website available without any sort of add-on functionality as WordPress was originally designed as a blog which evolved into a sorta kinda CMS platform; Joomla has a lot more capabilities out of the box as it has always been developed as a CMS platform
- Maintenance philosophies: WordPress goes for a "decisions over options" approach, whereas Joomla has options for options of options. You can override those decisions in WordPress if you're a developer or find a plugin that helps you accomplish your goal, whereas in Joomla there are a lot of options in the UI that can keep someone from needing more extensions or getting into the code (i.e. layout overrides). As a consequence of this, it means that there is more cognitive overhead needed to understand and follow the Joomla administrative interface in comparison to that from WordPress.
I don't mix up complex set up with easy to use etc.

What you describe here in your vacum, that was about SEO from the beginning, is a description of how much more powerful flexible Joomla is "out-of-the-box" than Wordpress and there is no correlation that a CMS can not be both powerful flexible and easy to use.

Thats the threat Wordpress fear to be spread out in the world of average Joes that doesn't have a clue what these different CMS really can deliver.

I don't writing off any intelligent good critiques that have significance for being a relevant comparisons between WP JOOMLA DRUPAL but I don't like the lies that is spread around about what Joomla really is and can deliver.

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Re: Why is Joomla always ignored!

Post by waarnemer » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:29 pm

Last time I did a count and that was a few years ago.
The number of steps needed to install WP or Joomla! where the same.

1. easy to install - a tie

Then I needed to create a custom template, yes some basic PHP, HTML, CSS and jQuery knowledge available. With WP I gave up... with J! I could get it to my desires.

2. design... WP failed, J! won, miles ahead...

Configuration and optimization of the site?

3. I missed out a lot in WP... simplicity comes with limitations...


And that is where the danger is... I wrote this before... with these limitations the disapointment grows. Since WP owns a great part of the Open Source CMS market, it is easy for the ignorant to mistake WP for CMS in general and open source in particular.
WP is a threat for Open Source in a way...

wordpress.org is sweeping the garden path for wordpress.com, affiliates and in the end Automattik.
wordpress is the free oil lamp, Matt Mullenweg is the oil salesman that gave you the free lamp.

If you read articles in magazines on how easy it is to run WP, you bet that article was paid for.... one way or another...

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Re: Why is Joomla always ignored!

Post by deleted user » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:01 am

@darb a lot of your posts, and a lot of posts in general in this forum, come across in a “they talked bad about our prized Joomla” tone and that to me is unhealthy.

And yes, I do think as a brand new user Joomla can be perceived as more complex than WordPress. I find Drupal more complex than both, same with some e-commerce platforms with some add-on CMS capabilities (Volusion, Magento, Sylius, etc.). That doesn’t make that opinion wrong, it’s just my feelings. That added upfront complexity though may very well be worth it for a longer term investment, so that also means the complexity isn’t a bad thing. It’s explaining that complexity though that is your sales pitch and why choosing the “harder” platform is worth it.

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Re: Why is Joomla always ignored!

Post by darb » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:24 am

People Joomlers want the best for Joomla and I admire your work for Joomla core Mike, you are a true hero.

But I think we all have different reviews and references about how we assess how something is complex or not.We all have different preferences and skills to judge things.
“..so that also means the complexity isn’t a bad thing.”
For me and others I guess that know marketing it is bad by a marketing perception perspective.

We are in different vacuum about this Mike so for me this is a huge mistake by Joomla/Joomlers to create an image of being complex as something positive to market! On the contrary..

Joomla's all users should instead use words such as "powerful, flexible" easy to use instead of using the negative word "complex".

Nobody wants a complex system. Everyone wants a simple system to use even that doesn't exclude you from having a powerful complex engine under the hood or its not what it is. :pop

On another note like example Google. Google Search - A simple search window that is easy to use but with a very powerful "complex" system beneath. Similar Facebook that testing their different improvement with user test 3 month before releasing a new improvement/feature.

To test and keep things simple/understandable and get continuously user/community feedback in a controlled process steps moving things forward.

How many end user tests/community communication loops/feedback have Joomla done with regards to "easy to use" "not complex" for the admin design template and process strategy(ies) to improve UI/UX?

This fight back now for the whole Joomla project unfortunately when the end users expectations doesn't go hand in hand with the dev strategy process implemention with less transparent community communication/inclusion in the end of what the Joomlers world wide want and need.

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Re: Why is Joomla always ignored!

Post by darb » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:30 am

@waarnemer I agree with you 100% this is exactly how I also see thing.

Well written!

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Re: Why is Joomla always ignored!

Post by deleted user » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:08 am

I never said Joomla can't improve on the perceived complexity. I'm just saying that Joomla being a more complex piece of software in and of itself isn't a bad thing, as that makes Joomla a more complete package to build from. Yes, there are ways to put marketing speak on that, and yes it would be good to use that to your advantage. But at the end of the day, the critique of "Joomla is complex" shouldn't be viewed as this totally negative thing that just makes the software unappealing. Microsoft Excel is a hella complex piece of software (I'd know, I did a certification course for it in school that got into some of the advanced formula logic you can barely find buttons for), but people don't stay away from it because it's complex.

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Re: Why is Joomla always ignored!

Post by Gianluca-Oddle » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:11 pm

Simple, paid for advertising. People only know what they are told ...and it costs money to tell people what they think they need to know.

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Re: Why is Joomla always ignored!

Post by 41global » Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:57 pm

Thanks so much for all the responses! You all have posted some great points. I honestly have never invested any time at all with WP, I simply picked Joomla back in 2008 and never switched. I guess I am pretty biased but I just have no complex issues with installing/managing Joomla sites these past 10 years and most articles I come across always say Joomla is difficult. I apologize if I posted this rant in the incorrect category, I don't post to often and just wanted to rant with some Joomla users.

Thanks again for all your responses! :)


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