What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now? Topic is solved

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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by JAVesey » Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:02 am

Webdongle wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:59 am
There is no update path from alpha or beta. The answer is he can't
So neither can I (update my local testing installation I mean ;) )

I was hoping to periodically update with the latest nightly build but I guess that can't be done?

I'll play about with 4.0.0 Beta1-dev for now :)
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by toivo » Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:29 am

JVesey wrote:Do the Update Channels work and, if so, which is the correct one to use to update?
Not sure about the Live Update but it looks like Upload & Update is working now, at least better than a couple of weeks ago, when it displayed notices and warnings and the update script did not seem to remove old files. The only message from the update in today's latest Nightly build was a timeout when it tried to connect to the statistics server.

If you get bored, there are plenty of opportunities to contribute by testing the latest PRs at Joomla! Issue Tracker. Today managed to test successfully one (simple) PR tagged Release Blocker :D
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by JAVesey » Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:34 am

toivo wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:29 am
Not sure about the Live Update but it looks like Upload & Update is working now, at least better than a couple of weeks ago, when it displayed notices and warnings and the update script did not seem to remove old files. The only message from the update in today's latest Nightly build was a timeout when it tried to connect to the statistics server.
This is good; so just download the latest nightly build and upload it?

toivo wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:29 am
If you get bored, there are plenty of opportunities to contribute by testing the latest PRs at Joomla! Issue Tracker. Today managed to test successfully one (simple) PR tagged Release Blocker :D
Nice one :)

I'll try to contribute and help move things along. I can certainly test things out.

As for fixing issues, might not be so hot at that but I'm assuming PHP7+ only in terms of back-compatibility?
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by JAVesey » Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:40 am

JAVesey wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:34 am
This is good; so just download the latest nightly build and upload it?
That worked ;)
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by toivo » Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:03 pm

Good to hear!
JAVesey wrote:I'm assuming PHP7+ only in terms of back-compatibility?
Yes, PHP 7.2.5 is the new requirement specified at https://docs.joomla.org/Potential_backw ... n_Joomla_4.
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by JAVesey » Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:13 pm

toivo wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:03 pm
Good to hear!
JAVesey wrote:I'm assuming PHP7+ only in terms of back-compatibility?
Yes, PHP 7.2.5 is the new requirement specified at https://docs.joomla.org/Potential_backw ... n_Joomla_4.
Thank you :D
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by erick-b » Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:23 am

mikerotec wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:32 pm
explain to me how you accomplish this, when J12alpha has no 'extensions manager'?
How do you install even the most basic extensions/plugins, etc. for testing?
Akeeba backup is installed and works perfectly
you can install whatever you want (if compatible)

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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by JAVesey » Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:18 am

erick-b wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:23 am
Akeeba backup is installed and works perfectly
you can install whatever you want (if compatible)
Likewise Admin Tools (unsurprisingly!)

Acymailing seems okay too (at least it did with Alpha version) and some of Michael Richey’s fab extensions too.

Will be trying Regular Labs extensions next, and checking out native SEF URL provision.

There’s a good link in an earlier post to the Release Blockers” so think I’ll check these too.
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by toivo » Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:21 am

The JED has now around 100 free and paid extensions under 'Browse Extensions' - 'Compatible with J4 Alpha'.
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by w360 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:38 pm

Ok i'll go test the [censored] out of it.

I have wanted for a long time to make a tutorial site for joomla and have therefor installed it and found 1 installation error which i am sure you already fikset. So as i work through the tutorials i will make sure to report any issues i will find.
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by psilin » Sat May 23, 2020 10:22 am

As a Joomla NooB that used the framework on and off since the mamboo split (version 1.5 up), I took the plunge to install the latest alpha release called beta-dev1. To even find a download link to this version took some time: disappointment one.
The installation process was really quick and smooth. I used kickstarter for that. Nice feeling came over!

Disappointment number two came quickly after the installation: although I selected another language during install, it did not show up in de administrator pane. Bummer. Disappointment number three: it is impossible to install another language.

Diving into the front portal: there is only one template. Well, that does not have to be a problem. Disappointment number four hits the pavement: where to find the documentation to alter the template?

Searching further on joomla.org, using google, browsing the joomla forum, checking the 'how to volunteer' and ending up on github (no I do not want to code at all) makes the disappointment journey complete. Joomla in the current state is only interesting for people who :
1. code for living, and will be making revenue out of the framework
2. code for hobby, spending hours to be a happy coder

For me as an user who only want to build a website, not interested in coding, the use ability of Joomla is far from perfect. The current version 3 is still using old web techniques based on bootstrap 2.3.2 (died ages ago). Version 5 of bootstrap is around the corner.
Joomla 4 will not even make a decent beta during 2020 in my humble opinion when there will not be a major focus on documentation for normal users. Documentation without the need to dive into the framework. Documentation that is reliable and in line with the coding versions. Did I already mention that documentation is key for a successful experience?

Let me be honest: I really bow for all the people that worked, and still are working at the Joomla project. It must be very hard to read my above critique. My reaction is simply an explanation of my feelings after messing around with the current state of version 4.

My advice really is: make sure that all focus is on documentation, on finding information about version 4. It is not even mentioned on the jooma.org portal. For decent documentation help from the developers is hard needed: why is what function implemented the way it is?

As mentioned: for the time I never joined and volunteered the Joomla community. Browsing through the 'help wanted volunteers' page I am completely dazzled: clearly there is a focus on high skilled professionals. That makes also sense to the numerous team meetings, magazines and so forth.

My conclusion is very simple: Joomla has entered a one way street that is dead ended. And because nobody wants to finish at the dead end, the speed of traveling went down as a stalled engine.

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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by sozzled » Sat May 23, 2020 8:00 pm

Thank you, @psilin, for your honest account of your experience with the latest alpha (i.e a product labelled beta1-dev); the label, itself, is confusing. Finding where to obtain it is difficult. Getting up-to-date information is a lucky-dip and obtaining help on this forum is next-to-impossible.

I have a similar tale; perhaps you've read it? I won't promote my own story here but it won't take you long to find it.

I agree with you about the self-contradictory way that the Joomla! project, on the one hand, seeks help from volunteers but, on the other hand, operates like an exclusive club and rejects offers of help when people approach some teams.

It's true that the current stable platform for building websites in J! is J! 3.x and it's true that this platform was conceived in 2011-12. It's true that J! 3 was designed with Bootstrap 2 in mind from the beginning. It's also true that J! 4 was conceived in 2016; Bootstrap 4 was added afterwards. It's also true, to a certain extent, that some more enterprising template developers have written code that acts as a kind of hybrid of B2/B4 in J! 3.x.

I welcome the fact that J! 4 will come with only one "supported" frontend template and one "supported" backend template. As long as the template construction mechanisms are well-understood, third-party developers are free to add their own templates and customers can choose to use third-party templates. It's a little disappointing that the templates that are included in J! 4 lack some of the nicer features like LESS/SCSS with a built-in CSS compiler but I suppose we can't have everything.

I agree with you that, for a project that has been running as long as J! 4 and remembering that in about the same length of time (four years) enthusiastic developers were able to move us from J! 1.5 through to J! 3.x, the results with J! 4 are disappointing after four years on this journey; perhaps underwhelming would be a more apt way to summarise our experiences.

What's holding things up? The common response to this question is "lack of testing" or "lack of volunteers willing to do the testing". I am not a "tester"; I don't make a good tester: I don't have the patience, agility or enthusiasm for it. I'm prepared to give a new product a test drive and provide my feedback. Whether my feedback is useful (or whether my feedback shifts the designers' direction) is another matter altogether. I'm just one person; I'm not ... an "influencer".
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by brian » Sun May 24, 2020 3:50 pm

Posts like that really discourage those people working really hard
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by sozzled » Sun May 24, 2020 7:13 pm

Thanks, @brian. I always appreciate your contributions. Posts, like the ones I believe you're referring to, are simply the frank expressions of our experiences (perhaps fuelled by irritation or frustration we've developed). I've tried my best to keep my observations based on fact rather than on emotion.

In the main, technical discussion forums tend to focus on "negatives": on problems/frustrations/difficulties that ordinary folk have using complex software. We're not saying that complexity is a bad thing and we're not saying that any specific software is unnecessarily over-complicated or beyond the abilities of ordinary folk to accommodate. It's true that everyone has different experiences; some people find things easier to use than others.

What we're saying, in effect, is that the J! 4 project has been focused for a very long time on the highly technical aspects of building a new product—and there's nothing wrong with that when a project is in the early design phase—but that, as we are emerging from the construction phase, while the builders are still wearing their hard hats, and into the market testing/owner-occupier stages, the construction crew needs to understand the difficulties that potential owners are having (or, at least, are perceiving) with their craft.

What we need to know, with certainty, is that the design phase has finished and that the design (good or bad) is the one that will be used to build the product that people ultimately will be using. If the design is sound, then let's proceed. If the design simply won't match market expectations or user needs, then what's the point? Perhaps it was a nice four-year holiday and maybe we should get back to work? I'm not saying this, of course, but I'm saying in a blunt way what others may be afraid to say.

The difficulties we're having (which is not to say should be "discouraging" ones for builders) lie in several areas:

1) A perceived lack of engagement from the development team with ordinary folk. It's not sufficiently excusable to say that developers are working hard simply because the focus of their work is at GitHub. This engagement needs to flow through to other facilities: the forum is one such place for engagement; the community magazine and the developers blog are others. We're not all "gits" you know (pun intended). ;)

2) Engagement requires patience, the awareness that amateur/novice users are unequipped to cope with technicalities unless they're offered support in the form of well-placed briefing material, news bulletins, documentation, user guides, etc. Patience is a two-way street. Developers may be unequipped to deal with lay terms that ordinary folk use just as ordinary folk are unequipped to deal with jargon.

It is not sufficient to place all the burden of testing on ordinary people by saying "get involved, become a tester" if people don't know where to start. We're also not saying that user guides need to be comprehensive; we need to know where to start, what to do, what's missing, and what is the next stage in the overall project.

3) It's hard to find information about the current state-of-play. The information that we need is buried and, were it not for Google, we'd be lost. Even there, Google doesn't provide us with the answers. We're largely our own and, unless you're "in the know" because you're part of "the team", we're largely bystanders watching the show. We're floundering here.

4) We're not saying that our experience of J! 4 is disappointing or disillusioning. I'm suggesting that, as the result of four years of work, we're a little underwhelmed by the results of that work. This is not just my observation; it's an observation shared by others with no encouragement from me. In fact, these kinds of observations can be beneficial: if the developers hear the murmurs of discontent in the audience then they can either get on with the job, disprove our observations, silence the hecklers (not with ridicule but with action), or they can walk away, close up shop and end the performance. I hope the developers will take heart from our observations and prove to us that the fruits of their labours are worthy of sharing. Furthermore, the fact that we're making our observations known here, in public, is evidence of our interest in this work.

5) We're not compiling a list of disappointments because we're inherently a cynical, one-eyed lynch mob. We're listing our concerns in the hope that our concerns will be addressed. There's a big different between between cheering for one side or another and how those cheers will translate into action. If our concerns are dismissed as the ravings of the great unwashed, that's discourteous to us and it's equally discourteous to integrity of the developers as well. I want neither; I want to see everyone profit from this experience.

In conclusion, @brian, I don't see discussions like these being discouraging to people who are working really hard. I see discussions like these should spur people get involved: to listen, to engage, to learn from one another. However, if the purpose of these discussions is interpreted as a zero-sum game, then no-one benefits. I'm not criticising you, @brian. I'm admitting that these things are difficult and, in the context of a [rather one-sided discussion, perhaps] I'm hoping that my observations will be taken in the spirit of trying to help everyone do better.

If there are show-stoppers, things holding back the release of a genuine Beta version, then let's discuss them. At the moment we're just guessing (although, as I've written, there are a few things holding us back and preventing us from being more engaged).

It's regrettable that the J! 4 discussion at the Joomla Forum™ is rather one-sided. It's regrettable that many discussions fall silent for lack of something useful to say. That's why I value the contributions we're all making on this forum (even if we may disagree with some of them) because we learn from them.

I'm learning as I go, too, you know. Curt responses (in technical forums), such as "stop complaining"—not that I'm saying that anyone's written those words anywhere—are kind of discouraging, too. :)
Last edited by sozzled on Sun May 24, 2020 9:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by Webdongle » Sun May 24, 2020 8:43 pm

Rebuking constructive criticism is one of the reasons that the devs are lacking testers. The relationship between devs and the rest of the community used to be symbiotic. But now the devs attitude makes it an 'us and them' situation. I am sick and tired of the way many of the devs ignore the rest of the community.
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by sozzled » Sun May 24, 2020 8:49 pm

Thanks, @Webdongle. I interpret your words "rebuking constructive criticism" as your perception of the way that developers are tackling the issue. Am I correct in my understanding of what you wrote? If I am correct in my interpretation, I agree with you.
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by Webdongle » Sun May 24, 2020 9:20 pm

Yes, most definitely.
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by ceford » Sun May 24, 2020 9:52 pm

I think that part of the problem is that the documentation is a bit of a maze. I have learned to keep my own bookmarks, so here are two relevant to this discussion:

https://docs.joomla.org/Testing_Joomla! ... renceGuide
https://docs.joomla.org/Testing_Joomla!_patches

Please don't expect those doing the coding and bug fixing to do all of the testing and documentation as well. By all means report user experience issues but please keep the posts short!

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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by sozzled » Sun May 24, 2020 10:30 pm

I'll keep it brief, short, and to the point, @ceford.

Sorry but the documentation you've mentioned is a guide aimed at developers. I'm not a developer; I'm a fairly ordinary person. Yes I have a git account. Yes, I've reported defects in Joomla code (and, yes, I've followed the guide(s) in reporting those matters). Yes, I've contributed to some of technical discussions. That's not the point.

See viewtopic.php?f=803&t=980231; a lack of documentation (in the Wiki) is not part of the problem in addressing the fundamental concerns that we ordinary people have in obtaining information about the current state-of-play.

Bugs "happen". Some features are missing. Some [Wiki-based] reference material is also absent. Those things are not as important as the lack of engagement from the developers within this forum or, worse, the appearance that this forum is unworthy of being a place to address our concerns.

I value your efforts to take on the role in documenting guides for Joomla and wish to put on the public record that you do this work largely unaided and not often acknowledged.

We require acknowledgement from the developers that we're being heard. The ensuing silence, on that front and in this forum, is deafening.
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by toivo » Mon May 25, 2020 1:25 am

Hold your horses, no four letter abbreviations or two letter insults needed here!

Let's work towards our common goal, Joomla CMS. The release of Beta 1 is important to all of us. Therefore, commentaries are welcome but more than two words and also no epics, please.

sozzled wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 10:30 pm
Sorry but the documentation you've mentioned is a guide aimed at developers. I'm not a developer; I'm a fairly ordinary person.
If those documents are difficult to follow, testing PRs is perhaps not for you. At this stage the developers require testing of PRs done in a particular environment using the documented tools. Reporting of bugs is easier but that also requires searching the Joomla! Issue Tracker and checking if the issue has already been reported.

sozzled wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 10:30 pm
See viewtopic.php?f=803&t=980231; a lack of documentation (in the Wiki) is not part of the problem in addressing the fundamental concerns that we ordinary people have in obtaining information about the current state-of-play.
At this stage of the SDLC of Joomla 4 the best way to obtain information is to get involved and see how the developers and testers are working day-to-day. In addition to ad hoc contributions, modelled on the Pizza, Bugs & Fun - Worldwide event, the new Bugs & Fun @Home weekend event is available now to all interested contributors to Joomla.

sozzled wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 10:30 pm
Bugs "happen". Some features are missing. Some [Wiki-based] reference material is also absent. Those things are not as important as the lack of engagement from the developers within this forum or, worse, the appearance that this forum is unworthy of being a place to address our concerns.
The developers have already their hands full. The Joomla! Issue Tracker and Github are their primary communication channels. Only selected few of the core developers have had some time for the forum. Let's accept that.

BTW, the time for new feature requests for Beta is long gone. Try again after the first couple of minor releases of J4. The documentation Wiki is also there for anyone to contribute to.
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by sozzled » Mon May 25, 2020 1:44 am

Thank you, @toivo. Commonsense should take priority here.

I agree with you. Testing PRs is not for me. The question is whether we're at the stage where we can commence end user/functionality testing. I don't have the answer to that question.

I accept that only a few of the core developers have had time for the J! forum but, by the same token, if the appearance of their absence from the forum could be inferred that the J! forum is not worth spending some of their time visiting it, then they're working in isolation from the community as a whole. I'm not really interested in bug testing/fixing workshops. I'm interested in obtaining information.

Thank you, @toivo, for your intervention. I don't want to start arguments here (or resort to coarse abbreviations) but it's apparent that the developers are not aware of our genuine concerns.
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by sozzled » Mon May 25, 2020 2:54 am

In order to address the original question, I created a twitter poll under the hashtag #Joomla, with the question "How much confidence do you have today that J! 4 is ready for [end user] beta testing?". We'll see what we'll see. :)

In order that I am not seen as influencing the outcome of the vote, I will not comment about J! 4 (or the poll that I created) anywhere for the next four days.
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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by psilin » Mon May 25, 2020 7:37 am

sozzled wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:00 pm
I have a similar tale; perhaps you've read it? I won't promote my own story here but it won't take you long to find it.
Well yes, I've read the complete thread. This corner of the forum is the only source of information I could think of. Boy I was wrong.

brian wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 3:50 pm
Posts like that really discourage those people working really hard
Well I am very sorry for you if you feel like that. I know the message I threw out is not optimistic. And it was not supposed to be optimistic. As a non engaged end user (in the means of developer, tester or whatever 'extra' role one can have in the community) of Joomla I've thrown out what my experiences are with the current state of Joomla 4.
Webdongle wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 8:43 pm
Rebuking constructive criticism is one of the reasons that the devs are lacking testers. The relationship between devs and the rest of the community used to be symbiotic. But now the devs attitude makes it an 'us and them' situation. I am sick and tired of the way many of the devs ignore the rest of the community.
Well this sounds like an us to them discussion. Let me be straight: I belong to neither of those groups.
That said: in a previous working area I had to deal with customer satisfaction. It was in an area of IT services that allowed customers to sell internet services. A large part of the services that were on catalogue needed an update because of strategic reasons of my own company. Developers took the job to adapt these services from an IT point of view by using scrum/agile. The total customer base never was part of this system. So every change in API or UX screen led to 'difficult' or at least annoying conversations between the commercial customer and me in my role.
This was the situation when I jumped into that role. It took me a couple of weeks, and a few fights to have the development chain extended with 2 very simple rules:
1. The one person that wants an adaption or extension of the used IT systems is personal accountable for a right timing scheme, a decent description of what changes or extension was asked, in what processes / usages these changes / extensions will affect users in work flow or IT adaption.
2. There will not be an operational completion to production if there is no sufficient documentation and time for users to adapt. This was the toll gate I ' earned' as a result of the given fights.

Joomla4 is from my point of view developed by the waterfall principle. At some point there is a lock on new functionality, and only alpha/beta testing and adaptions are allowed.
In my commercial role I cursed very often at the agile/scrum method because of the short sprints, and the constant pressure to get things done if the total amount of work expanded 1 sprint period. On the other hand if a Waterfall project has a too broad scope, accidents are going to happen because of the changing world.
sozzled wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 8:49 pm
Thanks, @Webdongle. I interpret your words "rebuking constructive criticism" as your perception of the way that developers are tackling the issue. Am I correct in my understanding of what you wrote? If I am correct in my interpretation, I agree with you.
Sorry, here I have to stand up for the developers, that are volunteering. As a volunteer one only wants to do stuff that is interesting. For a project like Joomla it is of great importance to have enough developers onboard. But not only developers: also communication people, product owners and so forth.
Developers are key to get an improved system. Even to hold the system at a decent security level involves developers! Do not forget this!
ceford wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 9:52 pm
I think that part of the problem is that the documentation is a bit of a maze. I have learned to keep my own bookmarks, so here are two relevant to this discussion:

https://docs.joomla.org/Testing_Joomla! ... renceGuide
https://docs.joomla.org/Testing_Joomla!_patches

Please don't expect those doing the coding and bug fixing to do all of the testing and documentation as well. By all means report user experience issues but please keep the posts short!
Thank you for the links. I've read them. Again only useable and applicable for people who wants to get their hands dirty in coding and the systems that are used. Me as a person I do not want to dig into git, into coding and so on.
sozzled wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 10:30 pm
I value your efforts to take on the role in documenting guides for Joomla and wish to put on the public record that you do this work largely unaided and not often acknowledged.

We require acknowledgement from the developers that we're being heard. The ensuing silence, on that front and in this forum, is deafening.
Every action from whomever that is contributing to the Joomla project should be praised for that. From the lead developer to the last single person that wants to use the system. It is no them or us!
toivo wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:25 am
If those documents are difficult to follow, testing PRs is perhaps not for you. At this stage the developers require testing of PRs done in a particular environment using the documented tools. Reporting of bugs is easier but that also requires searching the Joomla! Issue Tracker and checking if the issue has already been reported.
This is the start of the problem to user engagement!
toivo wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:25 am
At this stage of the SDLC of Joomla 4 the best way to obtain information is to get involved and see how the developers and testers are working day-to-day. In addition to ad hoc contributions, modelled on the Pizza, Bugs & Fun - Worldwide event, the new Bugs & Fun @Home weekend event is available now to all interested contributors to Joomla.
As a person I am reading this as : if you are not involved in development and testing, then you do not need to know about Joomla4. This makes me sad as it is in my opinion the road to nowhere. Without a constant growing and renewing user base, Joomla is going to die. So it is of greatest importance to get as much people involved!
toivo wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:25 am
The developers have already their hands full. The Joomla! Issue Tracker and Github are their primary communication channels. Only selected few of the core developers have had some time for the forum. Let's accept that.
Well, again this is where in my opinion a great issue in the organisation is mentioned. There needs to be a three spokes relation: users, documentation people and developers should work constantly together. None of these roles may have the power to retract in an ivory tower!

toivo wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:25 am
BTW, the time for new feature requests for Beta is long gone. Try again after the first couple of minor releases of J4. The documentation Wiki is also there for anyone to contribute to.
In the current state of development I am quite certain that it will be very hard to even reach the point of an official first release of Joomla4. This sounds probably harsh and rude: it is really what I've seen the last couple of days after being away for about one year. Nothing major has happened in that period.



Again I want to stress that I really appreciate the work that has been done by so many volunteers over the years since Mambo. Also I am encouraging the mission that open source matters. I really think that open source is making the world as a whole better.
The dark side of open source is lack of control, lack of project leading, and lack of resources.

For myself it is clear that the next website I will set up, will not be based on Joomla. I simply refuse in 2020 to make a new set-up that forces me to use bootstrap 2.3.2. In 2020 it is mandatory that user interfaces are up to speed, and up to date.
Perhaps this was my greatest disappointment with my last Joomla4 experience: the intertwining of the presentation with the information. I mean: why on earth are there Joomla php classes needed in the template cassiopeia ?

The fact that I am not willing to get to coding into PHP for Joomla, does not mean I don't understand the working principle of html ( or more general xms) and css. It's the base that information and presentation are completely separated. Please explain me why this will not be the case in Joomla4 ? Let the use decide what grid system they will use. Joomla only has to 'spit out' decent xml with css markup tags, combined with documentation what markup tags are used were. Javascript in the template? Only when a user wants this, or needs this.

To finalize this post: What is the audience that Joomla want to serve? What is the target user group? Only big companies, only website builders, or the complete picture from little user sitting in the attic to the big companies?
Please visit a book store, and look for recent Joomla books. And how many recent books about other CMS'es are there? That observation tells exactly the current status of Joomla!

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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by darb » Mon May 25, 2020 9:58 am

sozzled wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 2:54 am
In order to address the original question, I created a twitter poll under the hashtag #Joomla, with the question "How much confidence do you have today that J! 4 is ready for [end user] beta testing?". We'll see what we'll see. :)

In order that I am not seen as influencing the outcome of the vote, I will not comment about J! 4 (or the poll that I created) anywhere for the next four days.
It would be good to make a more proffessional "Joomla feedback survey" and get some important feedback/data from Joomla users interactions with Joomla so we understand the needs/wants etc and can use that feedback for directions.

See example Drupal Feedback Survey https://www.[spam].com/r/7KTSC8B

We all just have our own bubble of knowledge, preferences, guesses and emotions what Joomla represents and can be for the future.
Success in the long run Its not about the code its about the people and community that's make it!
Its not what you say its what you do that matters!

Darb - aka ssnobben

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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by Webdongle » Mon May 25, 2020 10:34 am

It is quite clear by the posts that their are basically two sets of opinions. Those of us who realise the devs are ignoring the rest of the community and the devs who have lost touch of how Joomla should work in the real world.

Many of the major Hosts have stopped providing Joomla installs as part of their packages. That in itself points to the 'writing on the wall'. Unless the devs make a dramatic u turn and admit they are wrong then the future of Joomla is bleak.
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results": Albert Einstein.

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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by sozzled » Thu May 28, 2020 7:51 pm

Results of the poll I ran regarding people's confidence in releasing/testing J! 4 Beta:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
https://www.kuneze.com/blog
“If you think I’m wrong then say, ‘I think you’re wrong.’ If you say ‘You’re wrong!’, how do you know?” :)

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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by Webdongle » Thu May 28, 2020 8:11 pm

Looks like 4 people took the p out of your poll :D
http://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/
https://www.weblinksonline.co.uk/updating-joomla.html
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results": Albert Einstein.

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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by sozzled » Thu May 28, 2020 8:17 pm

I'm saying nothing. You can interpret the results any way you like.
https://www.kuneze.com/blog
“If you think I’m wrong then say, ‘I think you’re wrong.’ If you say ‘You’re wrong!’, how do you know?” :)

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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by psilin » Fri May 29, 2020 2:18 am

sozzled wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:17 pm
I'm saying nothing. You can interpret the results any way you like.
What a joke. Number of participants n=4. That doesn’t say anything. Yes, it says that this poll have not been seen by enough people to be representative in anyway.

Nice try though...

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Re: What holding back the release of Joomla 4 b1 now?

Post by JJSJJS » Fri May 29, 2020 9:32 am

I saw the Alpha 12 is from october 2019? i thought there was a more recent one available.
So how come there is no newer alpha?

 

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