Bad things with joomla, true of false?

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Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by fetto » Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:08 pm

Ive tried to put up the bad parts of joomla that a friend of mine have found, this is gathered from use of 1.0.12 stable.
Please, this is important. Check what is fixed and not fixed, and i will update this.

1. *Adding Pages *
Adding pages in joomla is done in a certain order and takes alot of time due
to bad navigation (do-in-this-order-type) and constant page refreshes.
Ex:
- New section
- New category
- new menu item
- create page
- publish the page.

2. *Templating system. *
Joomla still uses tables and adds tables inside tables and also adds unused
divs when adding content. (may apply to modules/components only in 1.5?)
Most of that cant be removed without hacking the core or module/component
(may be fixed in 1.5?).
you are also placed inside blocks of code, instead of customizable css tag
layout that is not locked to certain hard coded layout.

3. *Includes. *
Inserting PHP code to components or core is hard, and doing mambots, modules
or components for every little thing you want to do, makes it even harder.
(Joomla API should be used instead of PHP includes?)

4. *Performance *
Joomla suffers from a lot of performance problems. 1.5 will be even slower according to forums.
( http://forum.joomla.org/http://phpbb.jo ... .php?f=8.0 )

5. *SEF URLs. *
Fixed in 1.5

6. *The menuing system. *
It takes hacks and components/modules to make custom menus in joomla, and it will
be restricted to look like the modules, without hacks.
AND most of the good components/modules that add menus are commercial so you
are mostly not allowed to change functionallity.

7. *Meta Tags *
If you do not use commercial component (often a core hack), you have to use
the integrated and limited stories/news component.

8. *Ajax functionality. *
Joomlas system is locked up, its hard to implement any ajax functionality
at all, you have to rely on component and module hacks. And most of the good
ajax components or modules have different libraries, that often collide and
require hacks.
AND some are commercial, so source code is not allowed to be changed.
(Joomla 1.5 have ajax functionallity built in to backend)

9. *User hierarchy *
In joomla you are always limited to the 4 main levels.
May still exist core hack´s to make it more, and commercial modules.

10. *Search *
Joomla searches only category names as standard, and requires extensive
hacking to search the whole site´s content. Alternatively use some other
component/module that often are commercial.

11. *Security. *
Most joomla components that are good, are often commercial. Due to the extent
that commercial modules often have encrypted PHP code. This will have a
great inpact in security due to that you don´t know what is in the encrypted
PHP code, and that additional PHP modules are another security risk and cost.
(I dont know the sollution to this? should apply to ANY commercial cms plugin though)
Last edited by fetto on Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by mjaz » Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:54 pm

I can't answer for the devs, however:

1. I agree that it would be nice to speed this up. Ajax was a GSoC project last year and will probably end up in the core in 1.6 or so.

2. This has been answered numerous times. You can override all components at the template level, thus eliminating tables etc. They're still in the core for backward compatibility. Check the Beez template to see how.

3. There are mambots that allow you to include php code in content. Again, you can override component output in the template. And you can always hack the core. I don't know much more flexibility you need :)

4. Performance will be addressed after the release of beta2. No use in doing it earlier. 1.5 has a great new caching layer that will speed things up as well.

6. Don't know what you mean, there's plenty of in built ways to make solid menus.

9. This will change in 1.6

10. ??? Joomla searches articles, news feeds, weblinks, contacts, ... out of the box!


Joomla can't and never will have every feature imaginable. But it's very easy to add features yourself or install 3pd extensions. If something is missing, you're welcome to submit patches.
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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by Hackwar » Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:51 pm

to 1.: This is the way a CMS works. You are supposed to create a structure and then insert the content into there. Wont change in the 1.x series, if at all...
to 2.: Please read the forum. You can override all output with your own.
to 3.: You are not supposed to add PHP code. Its about content, not about adding custom, unsecure code. As mjaz says, there are plugins that can do includes for you.
to 4.: Joomla is a CMS and a framework. its not static HTML. The performance is okay.
to 6.: Don't know what you mean. For inside-component navigation, you need another module, yes. Wont change either.
to 7.: Don't know what you mean. Meta Tags are supported in the articles.
to 8.: Just because thrid party developers don't know how to use Joomla, does not mean that it does not allow Ajax. Using Ajax is allready possible in 1.0 without much effort and its the same in 1.5. Although in 1.5 its a bit easier.
to 9.: Wont change in 1.5
to 10.: Joomla is very well capable of searching everything you want out of the box. Even in 1.0.
to 11.: Can't keep the guys from encrypting. *shrug*
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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by Jinx » Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:14 pm

1. In 1.5 you can create links to content and edit those links in a later stage. This means you don't need to do things in a specific order anymore.
2. See http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... ,33/p,210/
3. If you want to extend Joomla! you will need to either built a module, a component or a plugin. The extension architecture in 1.5 has been  completely refactored to be even more flexible.
4. Have you actually tested the preformance of 1.5 ? If not don't draw conclusions out of rumours, Joomla! 1.5 still needs to undergo final preformance testing and optimisation. Let's see what happens when we are done ;)
5. Aren't they beautifull ?
6. Can you clarify ?
7. Can you clarify ?
8. AJAX is used in Joomla! see http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... ,33/p,186/ and also http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... ,33/p,267/
9. Correct, changes to user management are on the roadmap for for 1.6
10. Incorrect
11. Encryption of Joomla! extensions is a violation of the GPL
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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by webamoeba » Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:19 pm

I'm gonna have to have a quick rant about number 11.

There are always going to be security risks involved in any computer system - it's up to the administrator to decide how many risks they are willing to take. There is no way I would classify this as a Joomla! issue.

There is actually a solution to all of this:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by AmyStephen » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:26 pm

Fetto -

Honestly, much of what you are saying is very vague and negative. I think it is honestly impossible to answer most of your claims by telling you whether something is "fixed," or not, as you are asking. There just aren't many concrete questions there!

Here are the primary "terms" you used in your numbered list -- you say something is "hard to do" or that it has "performance problems" or that it is "restricted" or "locked up" or "limited" or "requires extensive hacking" or "the extent to which" commercial software is a certain way.

None of those are measurements - they are value judgments. It would be more helpful to have your "problems" be specific. Specificity would mean that a test case could be created and a point of comparison available in support of these "value judgment" words. I hope that makes sense.

It speaks highly about the Joomla! developers, project lead and development documentation lead that they even answered you.

But, I honestly don't believe there was much to answer, except to say that, yes, it has been "fixed." Joomla! v 1.5 is now "easy" and has significant "performance advantages" and provides "unrestricted", "open" and "unlimited" potential for application development "without extensive core hacking" to "a large extent."

Of course, that is a bit of playful sarcasm, but not intended to be rude, but rather to demonstrate how perhaps you might want to go slower with one question at a time and flesh out that numbered list of innuendos with a little more fact. Before you post it, create a test scenario and make certain you are able to use the value judgement words in a way that most intelligent people would draw the same conclusion.

All the best,
Amy :)

Sorry to intrude on the GPL extension question of which I am very interested in hearing, as well.

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by Jinx » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:17 pm

Johan Janssens - Joomla Co-Founder, Lead Developer of Joomla 1.5

http://www.joomlatools.com - Joomla extensions that just work

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by tcp » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:27 am

webamoeba wrote: There is actually a solution to all of this:
That won't protect you from various WiFi/Bluetooth related viruses.  Abstinence is the only solution. ( /me tried to find the pics of the keyless keyboard and buttonless mouse )
Your solution for a single-page checkout on any website.
http://moolah-ecommerce.com

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by AmyStephen » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:09 am

tcp wrote: /me tried to find the pics of the keyless keyboard and buttonless mouse
Keyboard and mouse are fine; just don't plug them in.

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by fetto » Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:41 am

I know that many of these points are vague, that is why i asked them here, to get the clarified by developers.
You see, most of these points are collected from the ModX forum, since there are ex joomla developers going over to modx.
That are tired of just these points.

You can see the whole thread here:

http://modxcms.com/forums/index.php/topic,13256

I have been using joomla since the beginning, and before that Mambo.

So ive started to use ModX a bit to see what it is and what quality it has.

Sofar im very impressed with it, the flexibility is amazing! But... there is to many
components missing at this time, but as it grows, i think i might be as good as joomla.

Although, they are quite different from eachother, joomla is more automated. In modx you
will have to get your hands into the code in every sence.

I will try to work out specifics and examples of these main points in this thread.

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by AmyStephen » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:00 pm

Thanks, Fetto. That makes a bit more sense of your post!
Now - my unrequested advice - don't worry too much about "converting" anyone.  ;)  ModX is open source and I've looked at it, too. It's a cool emerging environment and those developers can feel good about what they are providing the world.

It's not a good thing to pit one open source project against the other (not saying YOU are doing that); but, it's perfectly fine to look at tools, list features and analytically evaluate differences. I think finding that fine line can be tricky. I have mixed feelings about whether it's appropriate to compare and contrast features in the forums of the open source project, itself. But, I realize "everyone's there" and it's easy to start the discussion. But, I do not think it's fair to expect the developers to leave their coding to explain (defend?) their environment (of course, that is THEIR choice!) This evaluation process is best and most reliable when it is based on analysis obtained from downloading, installing and checking it out. Doesn't cost a dime! This analysis is even MORE helpful when one has really considered their needs. In the end, that is what really matters.

There are lots of these types of debates always - there is a Drupal vs Joomla! debate, a WordPress vs Joomla! debate, on more rare occasion a Typo3 vs Joomla! debate. The fact is we are all part of the bigger, more important open source community and the real competition has very deep pockets and would very much like open source to go away, so, it's probably best we all work in unison.

There are 6.5 *billion* people in this world and I am fairly certain we have not outfitted each of them with an open source CMS website, yet!

All the best,
Amy :)

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by fetto » Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:32 pm

As open source, you start to see more and more companies using it for profit.
And therefor i see nothing wrong in eliminating bad usability, bad integration or bad anything with a system.
That is what makes things evolve, if there where nothing to fix, or to compare with. Everything would stand still.

You say it is not to be asked from an open source community, why?

I can admin though, that it is very wrong to say that one system doesnt cut it because of this and this.
The whole point is, where are you going, what do you need and how to do need it?
It is at that point that you need to have a stable ground to stand on, and not be limited or shut into a corner.
Every system has it´s advantages and losses. I have not yet seen one that is "perfect" as an open source.

My good friend, that told me about ModX are moving away from joomla. But, me myself is sticking with it.
I cannot afford to risk the reliability that ive built upon my customers, if i would change system, they would ask me why.
And at that point, i cannot lie. And if they do, they will question my expertice as a developer.

Now do you see how important this is for a company that uses open source?

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by Asphyx » Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:35 pm

One thing they said in that modx thread is completly wrong.....
No way to display a 4 level deep hierarchy without tweaking.
They simply do not understand that you can make as many levels as you want in the menu...Section category manager really speaks more to how it is saved not how it is displayed but you do have to think of the structure you want to create the organization that best fits your desired content output...

The actual heiracrhy is created in the menu not the section or cat manager.
With the menu you can create a section or category blog that will show multiple sections and cats based on how you want to group them.

You organize this actually from the bottom up not the top down.

IE: you have 4 sections each with 5 cats in them. (Thats 2 levels)
Now you group those 4 sections into one with a menu item (Blog Section) that includes all 4 Sections. (Level 3)
You can then assign all the level 3 blogs to a master parent menu item that will display all sections and cats of all the level 3 items. (Level 4)

this works just as well for categories.
Say one of the categories from each section is a hardware review.
You could group across the sections and just display the hardware review sections in one master level. You could then make submenus to split out the display for a specific platform as well.

So the method used for leveling in J! is actually more flexible than it might be under a section manager method of setting content heirarchy.

You can have as many levels as you want and mix and match any level under J!

And while I wouldn't mind a change to a system that removed sections altogether and simply used categories and sub categories I still would not want to lose the ability to create seperate content hierarchy via the menu where ultimatly the content will be navigated from!

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by AmyStephen » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:43 pm

fetto wrote: You say it is not to be asked from an open source community, why?
...
Now do you see how important this is for a company that uses open source?
Simply put - Fetto - those who take time to articulate their requirements specifically; to download and evaluate applications against that list of requirements; and to make their own judgments (accepting full responsibility for their choice) will do themselves the best service.

Those who are asking others to do that work for them will always wonder, when I asked if the application was good in the forum of the application, did I get a frank, considered response, or that of a fan? When people come and ask "Is Joomla! the best?" I always say, "Yes." What does that mean? It means I support this project and the people working here and where Joomla! is going.

If you are a company, you are going to want to dig a little deeper than that before you make a decision. No one can do it for you.  ;)

One last comment, I regret reading the ModX thread; I consider the tenor of some of the comments sarcastic and I don't think it's right for open source projects to mock one another. We are absolutely working on the same overarching goals. There were also very supportive comments in that thread and that I appreciate, very much. So, all the best to ModX! Go open source!

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by fetto » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:21 pm

Asphyx @ I dont know what you mean by that, the main hierachy is still 4 levels. User, registered, administrator and super administrator.
That is hard coded, and cannot be changed in joomla admin.

Of course, there is always ones own decition to take in first hand when choosing what you want to become. I myself is much more than greateful that such a large community of people eagerly try to make the best of joomla and any other CMS system. But, still, there is and will always be demands for quality and features, even if it is totalt free. That is, if you want people to actually get some use of the software you so eagerly build upon. And i really do understand, that it is offensive when one have put such effort on a system, and someone comes and calls it bad or lacking something. No matter what, it will always be your baby, your time, your effort, a part of your life will always be dedicated to it.

That is what i find the most hardest about developing web applications, you cannot always take future in concideration.
Everything moves very fast! If one would upgrade every finished product, one would never have time for anything else :-)

Since i already said that i am sticking with joomla, does not say that i will not still help my friend to develop and maintain ModX.
It is always in my interrest to make shure that i contribute my best, even if i do not get payed for it. Because im using open source, and having my services as a living. It is very important to make shure that the core of what i am, stays alive, up to date and have all that the future could bring into it. And that applies just as much to the CMS, because it is a part of myself.

Please, if you find anything sarcastic, let us know. I will talk to my friend, and sort it out.
Im shure that they do not mean anything sarcastic.

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by AmyStephen » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:37 pm

fetto wrote: That is what i find the most hardest about developing web applications, you cannot always take future in concideration.
Everything moves very fast! If one would upgrade every finished product, one would never have time for anything else :-)
So true! I have 25 years in IT. Yes, this is very true!  :P
fetto wrote: Please, if you find anything sarcastic, let us know. I will talk to my friend, and sort it out.
Im shure that they do not mean anything sarcastic.
No worries; just a gentle reminder that the forum walls aren't as thick as one might think.  ;) We all need to be more sensitive to that. It is easy to stand at a distance and judge one another; but, people are working hard for good and common purpose. Each project is facing their own set of challenges.

All the best! Amy :)

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by Asphyx » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:08 pm

Fetto your talking about ACL....

What they were talking about was setions and cats.

the statement in regards to ACL is false as well...

Here are the ACL levels....

Guest
Registered
Author
Publisher
Editor
Admin
Super Admin

Yes those are hardcoded but the permissions for each are quite distinct!
An author can write content but not publish...
A publisher can publish content but is restricted from some edit and archiving functions
Editor has all power over content but no control over server and CMS configs or users.
Admin has control of users but can not make sweeping changes to things like templates and some key settings
SuperAdmin can do anything!

So even in the subject of ACL that statement isn't true!

This ModX project from what i read was made because some guys were more concerned with standards and xhtml than they were with any of these functiuons.
they split to get semantical code which is nice and all but not the only reason to use a CMS.
By the time that project is mature the standards will change again as they always dowith time!
And then someone will plit from them because the semantical they tied and locked themselves to will not comply with the new standard!

J! 1.5 ifeatures an API that will not be tied to any standard and modularized so that as new standards that emerge they can be easily plugged in. ModX may have a very handy dandy templating system but if it doesn't have the addons all that semantical code will be wasted!

If you can't plug in something like CivCRM because you locked out any non standardized code from being output it won't matter what some validator says is a good page!

i look at this semantical code issue much the way I look at Hybrid vehicles...
Sure it's a great idea to at least take half a step towards a better standard but I will wait until they come out with the FULL step of hydrogen powered cars!
The one that not only reduces polution but gets rid of it altogether!

until that comes I'm going with the features not the standards!

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by fetto » Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:45 pm

Even though you say that there are more levels of hierarchy, ModX is unlimited...

....The way i view it, is like this.

Here you have Joomla, it has modules and components.
Components are complete applications that have one input and operation area in a template.
Modules, are helpers that are small integrations to components.
Make permissions for not viewing a certain category, meny, component or module.

Here you have ModX, it has Chunks (HTML parts), Snippets (PHP), Widgets (PHP->HTML), Plugins (Functions/PHP), Module (Application).
With these parts, you can build a custom designed application, and disable/enable each part of it.
Or, you can make/use a Module, that is a complete set of application, and/or extend it with Chunks, widgets, snippts, etc.
Make permissions for each user, maybe even disable a sertain category not beeing able to view a part of an app for example.

Here you should se the clear difference between joomla and ModX.

Joomla is all about simplicity, make it EASY to manage/use but hard to extend/modify.

ModX is about customizability, make it extremely extendable, modifiable and bring all the power of permissions to the user.

What makes ModX stand out, is that even though people use the same components, the sites could look TOTALY different from eachother. In Joomla, you can almost instantly tell that it is a Joomla site, based on what components they use, modules used and what template it is built upon/from.

Damn, im almost converting myself to ModX as im typing the comparison  :o

Anyways, if you have alot of time to create you CMS from groun up, ModX would be my choise.
But, if i do not have the time and i´d rather spend it more on design and functions, i´d go with Joomla, as i currently do.
Last edited by fetto on Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by AmyStephen » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:16 pm

Here's a good sampler of Joomla! sites. I would be curious to see a set of ModX sites. Is there a gallery?

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by Asphyx » Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:54 am

Lets try this Fet...

Does CivCRM support modX?
Is there a CivCRM module for it?
Is there a bridge for SMF or VBull?
Does it have the 3pd support that Joomla has?

Sure it's flexible if you are coding everything yourself...
Doing the bridges and integration yourself...

Well hell I can run PHP and do that myself!

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by fetto » Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:41 am

There is alot of bridges in the doing, af far as i know.
For now, you can check out the integration of SMF here:
http://modxcms.com/forums/index.php

For detailes about how this is possible with ModX:
http://modxcms.com/forums/index.php/topic,14143.html

Simple, and without programming.

I know that there are lots and lots of integrations of other php programs, but
you have to take in consideration that before Joomla there was Mambo, and that
they have several years of head-start in bridging and integration.

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by webamoeba » Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:32 am

This seems to be quickly turning into a Modx vs Joomla! thread... not a good sign.

I think you'll find that J! 1.5 will address many of the issues to which you are pertaining. i.e. multiple layouts and views within components.

In all honesty you've pretty much made your arguments null and void by saying that Joomla! is aimed at a different group of peeps.

If you really want a system which is 100% customisable take a look at ezPublish.

It's all about the right tool for the job.

(sorry looks like I have continued the Modx vs Joomla! theme... oopsie :p)

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by AmyStephen » Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:33 am

Fetto -

Out of curiosity, how long have you been a Joomla! user? And, what made you decide to finally get a forum ID two days ago? This conversation feels funny to me - like a staged debate - like it's pitting two open source projects against one another.

Truthfully, we are not going to decide which is "better" - these are both useful tools. I hope for good things for ModX - I'm certain most people who use Joomla! would say the same. How about we let it go and that?

In my opinion, there's nothing productive to be had here. You have stated you have years of Joomla! experience, so, you are already an expert on what Joomla! is capable of doing. We can't advice you on ModX, except to recommend you download, install and see it in action. If you find a gallery of ModX sites, please let me know, though, I love looking at OSCMS websites.

Thanks for considering,
Amy :)

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by fetto » Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:40 am

Amy -

I do not understand you right now, you say that you are for Open Source, not pro joomla.
Then you still think that this is a "staged" debate, im only trying to answer your questions in this debate.
Since Joomla is so easy to use, i have not had ANY reason to register here until now.

And i have not once, said that anything is better then the other. This thread is about noticing bad parts and ruling them out.
Of the response i have had in this thread, i am more confident about using joomla than i was before.
My friend in the other thread, have been preaching about the flaws about joomla for several months.
But obviousy, they are not true and Joomla is just as capable as any other CMS if not even more powerful thanx to a big community.

As you might have noticed, i have alot of experience with ModX already. Please, read the thread and don´t go flamebaiting....
Last edited by fetto on Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by brian » Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:45 am

yes lets keep this interesting thread on-topic
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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by AmyStephen » Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:01 pm

My apologies, Fetto. I'm just confused. I'll exit the thread, now, because it does make me uncomfortable.

All the best,
Amy :)

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by fetto » Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:48 pm

It´s okey with me Amy, i can see that you have very personal feelings about joomla.
To me it is nothing wierd that feelings and emotions about things, get in the way of context and objectivity.

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by Jinx » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:07 pm

Mod note : can we please keep the thread on topic , we are on a development forum here so please keep ourselves to the features and the facts.
Johan Janssens - Joomla Co-Founder, Lead Developer of Joomla 1.5

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by fetto » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:34 pm

I am trying to, sorry for a bit of OT!

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Re: Bad things with joomla, true of false?

Post by tsimpo » Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:03 am

I can not understand why people nagging all the time about "things" Joomla! don't have.

It is an open source software that it has it's own roadmap and of course can accept proposals for improvements. But not criticism about it.

You (not speaking specific) are not forced by anyone to use it. You may choose many other open source or commercial CMS that has already the features you ask.

Or you can stay an support this project to include them. Support doesn't mean that you are going to write code necessarily. You can translate a piece of project, or you can support someone in the forums, or you can make extension etc
Joomla sites. http://www.webcase.gr Υπηρεσίες Internet, websites, Joomla! dedicated services.


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