GPL Questions Continued, User related

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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by kncarlsen » Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:58 pm

AmyStephen wrote:
kncarlsen wrote: On two days I've received email from two vendors, Phil Taylor and Merav Knafo, that's telling me, their customer, that the future for their product is unsafe.  And they call it a fight for their businessmodel, belive it or not :-)
kncarlsen -

Thank you.

If I might I ask you - will you continue to purchase extensions you need from third party developers, even if the extensions are GPL'ed? Or, would you search the Internet for locations that these extensions are available for free?

If you don't want to answer, that's fine. But, I suspect people are underestimating the integrity and loyalty of the Joomla! end user base.

Again, thank you,
Amy :)
Hi Amy

I've just now removed myself from the iJoomla-list.  I don't want in any way to get involved with a company that send out "warnings" to their customers about the future for our beloved CMS-system.  To answer your question; yes I will continue to buy extensions.  I'm not only just buying an extension, but even trust in continued development, functionality and support.
Last edited by kncarlsen on Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by AmyStephen » Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:02 pm

kncarlsen wrote:
AmyStephen wrote:
kncarlsen wrote: On two days I've received email from two vendors, Phil Taylor and Merav Knafo, that's telling me, their customer, that the future for their product is unsafe.  And they call it a fight for their businessmodel, belive it or not :-)
kncarlsen -

Thank you.

If I might I ask you - will you continue to purchase extensions you need from third party developers, even if the extensions are GPL'ed? Or, would you search the Internet for locations that these extensions are available for free?

If you don't want to answer, that's fine. But, I suspect people are underestimating the integrity and loyalty of the Joomla! end user base.

Again, thank you,
Amy :)
Hi Amy

I've just now removed myself from the iJoomla-list.  I don't want in any way to get involved with a company that send out "warnings" to their customers about the future for our beloved CMS-system.  To answer your question; yes I will continue to buy extensions.  I'm not only just buying an extensions, but even trust in continued development, functionality and support.
I also removed myself from some lists for the same reason you stated. I already plan to "buy" an up and coming exciting 3PD extension that I heard about yesterday.

I respect your answer and expect there are many of us who feel the same.
Amy :)

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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by ChuckTrukk » Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:08 pm

ChuckTrukk wrote:
AmyStephen wrote: Third Party Developers can continue to charge for extensions before they allow the extension to be downloaded.

Bottom line, extension providers can charge and we, end users, should financially support extension development.
While you can sell a GPL application. Not many are sold.

- How many people buy Linux commercial distros (not many, you can download it from a number of sites because GPL allows anyone to distribute it). Example: Red Hat (commercial) --> CentOS is the same product minus the Red Hat trademarks. They take RedHat, remove the trademarks and upload the software for free. This is what happens when good commercial software is GPL [/b/

It is hard to sell something others give away for free. You *can* sell GPL products. But there is little consumer/user incentive to do so- because it is freely available somewhere else. 3PD's can sell their addon but as soon as they do, anyone can give it away to whomever they want for free.


Amy,

This is relevant to the question: Can GPL software be sold by its developers?
Answer: It is hard to sell something others give away for free. You *can* sell GPL products. But there is little consumer/user incentive to do so- because it is freely available somewhere else. 3PD's can sell their addon but as soon as they do, anyone can give it away to whomever they want for free. Does this make sense to you? As in, can you see where I am at least coming from?

Example: Red Hat / CentOS

Is piracy available now? Yes. GPL would 'legalize' the piracy though. In fact, it's not piracy anymore. It's a right. Distributing someone else's labor is a right. And who doesn't want to exercise their rights?
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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by AmyStephen » Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:12 pm

ChuckTrukk wrote: Is piracy available now? Yes. GPL would 'legalize' the piracy though. In fact, it's not piracy anymore. It's a right. Distributing someone else's labor is a right. And who doesn't want to exercise their rights?
Chuck -

I think it's time we stop being theoretical and start addressing procedural issues.

Below is the REAL LIFE MODEL of how community members typically find extensions. Where do you see someone distributing someone else's work in this model?
AmyStephen wrote:
  • End users come to Joomla! forums.
  • They find extensions through the Joomla! Extensions Directory.
  • The developers provide a link to their site.
  • The developer and end user conduct business.
  • Patricia and RobS just talked about a process to ensure the JED will help protect developers.
Thanks!
Amy :)

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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by kncarlsen » Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:17 pm

AmyStephen wrote:
kncarlsen wrote:
AmyStephen wrote: kncarlsen -

Thank you.

If I might I ask you - will you continue to purchase extensions you need from third party developers, even if the extensions are GPL'ed? Or, would you search the Internet for locations that these extensions are available for free?

If you don't want to answer, that's fine. But, I suspect people are underestimating the integrity and loyalty of the Joomla! end user base.

Again, thank you,
Amy :)
Hi Amy

I've just now removed myself from the iJoomla-list.  I don't want in any way to get involved with a company that send out "warnings" to their customers about the future for our beloved CMS-system.  To answer your question; yes I will continue to buy extensions.  I'm not only just buying an extensions, but even trust in continued development, functionality and support.
I also removed myself from some lists for the same reason you stated. I already plan to "buy" an up and coming exciting 3PD extension that I heard about yesterday.

I respect your answer and expect there are many of us who feel the same.
Amy :)
I was going to buy Clexus yesterday but no, it was not possible.  I already had told my customer about this great extension,  and how we could implement it for use in their new Joomla-project (approx. 100 installations).  Now I'm a bit confused and don't know exactly how to handle this new situation?  On monday I must give them an answer,  what now?
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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by ChuckTrukk » Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:20 pm

AmyStephen wrote:
ChuckTrukk wrote: Is piracy available now? Yes. GPL would 'legalize' the piracy though. In fact, it's not piracy anymore. It's a right. Distributing someone else's labor is a right. And who doesn't want to exercise their rights?
Chuck -

I think it's time we stop being theoretical and start addressing procedural issues.
The Red Hat --> CentOS software distribution is very real and addresses procedural issues in real life. This is how good GPL software works. It is not theoretical.

I guess my question is how would the Joomla team decide if the Red Hat --> centOS thing happened with a commercial GPL software. Do you understand this is human nature? Can you address this real life example?

PS - I do not want to hijack this thread. The above is the point/question I have.
PPS - Amy we can speak in another forum if you wish.
Last edited by ChuckTrukk on Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by AmyStephen » Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:21 pm

Well, I'd ask Clexus if they are interested in a sale for 100 installations!  8)

We need to help reassure the developers that their businesses can continue if they continue to provide good software and build a loyal customer base.

This is a step of faith, there is no doubt. Will the community support developers? I think they will and I think Joomla org already has the structure in place to continue just as we have in the past.

Amy :)

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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by n0fear2 » Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:25 pm

kncarlsen wrote:
AmyStephen wrote:
kncarlsen wrote: Hi Amy

I've just now removed myself from the iJoomla-list.  I don't want in any way to get involved with a company that send out "warnings" to their customers about the future for our beloved CMS-system.  To answer your question; yes I will continue to buy extensions.  I'm not only just buying an extensions, but even trust in continued development, functionality and support.
I also removed myself from some lists for the same reason you stated. I already plan to "buy" an up and coming exciting 3PD extension that I heard about yesterday.

I respect your answer and expect there are many of us who feel the same.
Amy :)
I was going to buy Clexus yesterday but no, it was not possible.  I already had told my customer about this great extension,  and how we could implement it for use in their new Joomla-project (approx. 100 installations).  Now I'm a bit confused and don't know exactly how to handle this new situation?  On monday I must give them an answer,  what now?

Yes same here... we have to drop joomla because there are no real working alternatives for clexus thtat we used since the beginning of our site now. And all 15.000 users will really be happy to hear that we habe to use a very bad pms or have to change the whole site to another cms. So if anyone knows an alternative i would love to hear that. Well on the pettition liste for 3rdp non-gpl extensions there where more then 500 people allready signing, so why not hear onto the Community and the endusers that made J! what it is now?

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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by AmyStephen » Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:26 pm

ChuckTrukk wrote: The Red Hat --> CentOS software distribution is very real and addresses procedural issues in real life. This is how good GPL software works. It is not theoretical.

I guess my question is how would the Joomla team decide if the Red Hat --> centOS thing happened with a commercial GPL software. Do you understand this is human nature? Can you address this real life example?
Chuck -

You are just avoiding my question and instead talking about human nature and then asking me to answer a new question. It seems like you've made up your mind this can't work.

Where do you see someone distributing someone else's work in this model? That's OUR model - so that's the one we need to strengthen and make certain it works. Thinking about linux distributions is not as important as Joomla! extension distributions.
AmyStephen wrote:
  • End users come to Joomla! forums.
  • They find extensions through the Joomla! Extensions Directory.
  • The developers provide a link to their site.
  • The developer and end user conduct business.
  • Patricia and RobS just talked about a process to ensure the JED will help protect developers.
With respect - but, Chuck - I'm not going off-track on this,
Amy

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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by kncarlsen » Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:40 pm

Yes same here... we have to drop joomla because there are no real working alternatives for clexus thtat we used since the beginning of our site now. And all 15.000 users will really be happy to hear that we habe to use a very bad pms or have to change the whole site to another cms. So if anyone knows an alternative i would love to hear that. Well on the pettition liste for 3rdp non-gpl extensions there where more then 500 people allready signing, so why not hear onto the Community and the endusers that made J! what it is now?
We will never give up Joomla, not even for the lack of a PMS-system  ;)

Why not stop and rethink the businessmodels for 3PD's?  A subscriptionsystem in different levels with different capacities in different price ranges?  It works for templates clubs, why not for other extensions?
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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by ChuckTrukk » Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:52 pm

AmyStephen wrote:
ChuckTrukk wrote: The Red Hat --> CentOS software distribution is very real and addresses procedural issues in real life. This is how good GPL software works. It is not theoretical.

I guess my question is how would the Joomla team decide if the Red Hat --> centOS thing happened with a commercial GPL software. Do you understand this is human nature? Can you address this real life example?
Chuck -

You are just avoiding my question and instead talking about human nature and then asking me to answer a new question. It seems like you've made up your mind this can't work.

Where do you see someone distributing someone else's work in this model? That's OUR model - so that's the one we need to strengthen and make certain it works. Thinking about linux distributions is not as important as Joomla! extension distributions.
AmyStephen wrote:
  • End users come to Joomla! forums.
  • They find extensions through the Joomla! Extensions Directory.
  • The developers provide a link to their site.
  • The developer and end user conduct business.
  • Patricia and RobS just talked about a process to ensure the JED will help protect developers.
With respect - but, Chuck - I'm not going off-track on this,
Amy
This will be my last post on this issue here. (Though we can talk via PM if you want- dont want to clog up forum).

Quote: Where do you see someone distributing someone else's work in this model? That's OUR model.

We don't really have a model that shows selling good, commercial GPL products. This is new territory. I am presenting historical models of what has happened when this decision has been made for other softwares. You might be right, but this new decision represents a new model that we have not encountered before.
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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by phil_roy » Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:53 pm

AmyStephen wrote: Let's walk it through.
  • End users come to Joomla! forums.
  • They find extensions through the Joomla! Extensions Directory.
  • The developers provide a link to their site.
  • The developer and end user conduct business.
  • Patricia and RobS just talked about a process to ensure the JED will help protect developers.
  • End user purchases many commercial extensions
  • End user sets up website joomlaextensionsforfree.com
  • End user makes all GPL purchased extensions available for free download
  • End users slaps Google ads on that page
  • End user makes a killing at developers expense despite being despised by all
Sorry to be cynical, but could this not happen?

Cheers, Phil

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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by bodazepha » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:09 pm

AmyStephen wrote:
kncarlsen wrote: On two days I've received email from two vendors, Phil Taylor and Merav Knafo, that's telling me, their customer, that the future for their product is unsafe.  And they call it a fight for their businessmodel, belive it or not :-)
kncarlsen -

Thank you.

If I might I ask you - will you continue to purchase extensions you need from third party developers, even if the extensions are GPL'ed? Or, would you search the Internet for locations that these extensions are available for free?

If you don't want to answer, that's fine. But, I suspect people are underestimating the integrity and loyalty of the Joomla! end user base.

Again, thank you,
Amy :)

I wish I could live in your world, but alas I have to live in reality and the reality is it does not matter whether I will continue to do the right thing and pay for the extensions because the 3PD will no longer be there for me to purchase those extensions that I want. Instead I along with everyone else will have to choose from the 'free' extensions of which most (not all) I would never put on one of my customer's sites (unless I wanted to be fired). Why is this? Quite simple, who will develop quality extensions for no compensation? The few that do, I ask for how long? At what point do they decide it is no longer worth it to support an extension that they are not compensated for? Support this extension I created when I had free time or spend time with my new wife, new family, new hobby, etc.?

So integrity and loyalty have very little value if what we wish to be loyal to is no longer available.
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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by Jenny » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:11 pm

phil_roy wrote:
  • End user purchases many commercial extensions
  • End user sets up website joomlaextensionsforfree.com
  • End user makes all GPL purchased extensions available for free download
  • End users slaps Google ads on that page
  • End user makes a killing at developers expense despite being despised by all
Sorry to be cynical, but could this not happen?

Cheers, Phil
It happens now Phil.  Warez sites abound throughout the web.  So that argument in my opinion is a non-starter.

I can tell you most end users aren't going to offer for free what they have had to pay for.  Also an idea the circumnavigate that whole thing, is for 3PDs to keep track of who they sell to.  If you aren't on the list of people who have purchased, you don't get support.  It isn't hard to make a searchable database that tracks your customers, and their identifying purchase details.  There are a number of proprietary software vendors that do this very thing.

Most 3PDs that I have talked to, spend most of their time supporting their clients, and less time coding their actual softwares.  Business isn't going to change much for them, except that maybe before they give support they may have to add a step in verifying the purchase.

Just an idea.
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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by AmyStephen » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:13 pm

phil_roy wrote:
  • End user purchases many commercial extensions
  • End user sets up website joomlaextensionsforfree.com
  • End user makes all GPL purchased extensions available for free download
  • End users slaps Google ads on that page
  • End user makes a killing at developers expense despite being despised by all
Sorry to be cynical, but could this not happen?

Cheers, Phil
Yes! It could happen and it will very likely happen. It will be just like the "pirate" sites except they would not be breaking the "law", just community values. 

The part you didn't explain is how do community members find out that joomlaextensionsforfree.com exists.

There are two types of users:

1. Newbies. The model we have now will continue to set community expectation by directing them to developers.

2. More experienced users. These are the ones who are more likely to know about the joomlaextensionsforfree.com site and also the existing "pirate" sites. In order to retain the return business of existing community members, reputation and loyalty certainly come into play.

Obviously, the more that 3PDs do to make purchasing from them advantageous (ex. by offering members documentation and support and a members-only forum area, etc.) the less likely they will lose business.  A bit more creativity is needed, certainly.

Amy :)

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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by bodazepha » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:17 pm

AmyStephen wrote:
phil_roy wrote:
  • End user purchases many commercial extensions
  • End user sets up website joomlaextensionsforfree.com
  • End user makes all GPL purchased extensions available for free download
  • End users slaps Google ads on that page
  • End user makes a killing at developers expense despite being despised by all
Sorry to be cynical, but could this not happen?

Cheers, Phil
Yes! It could happen and it will very likely happen. It will be just like the "pirate" sites except they would not be breaking the "law", just community values. 

The part you didn't explain is how do community members find out that joomlaextensionsforfree.com exists.

There are two types of users:

1. Newbies. The model we have now will continue to set community expectation by directing them to developers.

2. More experienced users. These are the ones who are more likely to know about the joomlaextensionsforfree.com site and also the existing "pirate" sites. In order to retain the return business of existing community members, reputation and loyalty certainly come into play.

Obviously, the more that 3PDs do to make purchasing from them advantageous (ex. by offering members documentation and support and a members-only forum area, etc.) the less likely they will lose business.  A bit more creativity is needed, certainly.

Amy :)
I am not a 3PD, but if I were, why would I want to subject myself and my business to the liklihood that my product will be availalble for free somewhere else and unlike warez sites it will be completely legal?

This is what frustrates me...Joomla needs commercial extensions, and this new ruling is driving the 3PD away. This is not good for anyone.
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Re: GPL Questions Continued, Developer related

Post by marnijderr » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:18 pm

Would like to understand....

Charging for extensions does not break the GPL. Good, I get that.

I understand that by not encrypting the code people would be able to modify/redistribute freely. I currently use over a dozen various extension. half of them available for free (Pretty sure they came from the developer who created them), half of them purchased and only 3 are encrypted.

So my question is, other than code that is encrypted, can users illegally redistribute this code now and are they doing so? If they are doing so, how are they doing so and has it been a large problem? or how has this been prevented?

I am truly serious, I am trying to understand what would be different.

whoops, forgot. I agree with the sentiment earlier. I would not freely distribute something I had paid for.



Thanks,
Marni
Last edited by marnijderr on Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by phil_roy » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:18 pm

MMMedia wrote: It happens now Phil.  Warez sites abound throughout the web.  So that argument in my opinion is a non-starter.
Except my point is that you won't be able to call it warez or claim it to be anything other than a perfectly legal thing based on the approach being taken re GPL....right?

Amy...in theory they could find out by the person listing this site in the forum signature in this forum.....or are you going to start banning links to perfectly legal sites that just aren't very nice in what they are doing?

My point is I believe this will happen and that whilst I personally think such an approach would be appalling, there'll be nothing illegal about it and it would be interesting to see how that site would be treated here. If that treatment is to ban all mention of it...well, I'm sorry...but in a way you'd be shooting the messenger...blocking someone for doing exactly what the changes in GPL allowed for.

Phil

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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by AmyStephen » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:29 pm

Phil -

You raise the right points and good observations. It's the heart of the matter, isn't it? I happen to believe the processes are in place to support the developers and maybe I believe in people - in the community - more than most. You are right about the signature issue - that's another area that should be discussed. And, you are right about the "legality" of redistribution for GPL'ed extensions.

What I don't hear you appreciating is that we can have community values and there is a forum that can support those values with process. That should take care of a lot of the problem.

There is no doubt that the 3PDs will benefit from more creative approaches with their "customers." For example, I wouldn't offer any support to anyone who didn't download through me. I'd certainly do what I could to have value-added information available for members - documentation - ideas - a blog - whatever I could to encourage people to come to me. Some type of personal touch. Marketing would come into play. Over time, it will be smart for 3PD's to migrate from software sales to service operations.

I hear you. I just do not see it as impossible or fatalistic, just a challenge. But, I am very sorry if I didn't sound appreciative of your position.
Amy :)

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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by bigwaxer » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:31 pm

I hate to jump into this...

But in the end using Centos  as an example is actually a very very bad example... Do you think Red Hats bottom line is affected by this?
Red Hat probably IMO is the top and best example of what open source can provide.

My problems here... and I haven't chimed in much.

Wait first a perspective, I am huge on using GPL products. In fact the only non-gpl product I use is at work and thats Windows... which I have no choice, if it was my call everyone would be using Fedora / PCLOS / Ubuntu... but lets not go there.

Faults lie on both sides. Yes Joom allowed this to go on since the start = fault Joom

3pd = Knew this, knew the risk and put all there eggs in one basket. Fault=3pd

Joom is not going away. The FUD put out by the 3pd as threats on how it will tear down the #1 cms is really not true. Too many people use it and in the end someone will make up for the slack. If not me someone else.

Many GPL projects make a lot of money. As a user what bothers me is the lack of vision by some 3pd. Why not think outside the box. There are plenty of ways to make money.

In the end this all started really because of the encryption. Well honestly IMO and not to flame away if you want to protect your code and not share to improve it then you shouldn't have been working on an GPL platform to begin with.

In closing I think no matter the decision it will have little effect on the joom community overall. Some will leave, some will adapt. Just  the nature of the biz. GPL projects of many kinds make a lot of money - The key I think is again thinking outside of the pay to download. I have been in the web biz for years and the key is eggs / 1 basket dont do it.

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Re: GPL Questions Continued, Developer related

Post by AmyStephen » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:38 pm

marnijderr wrote: Would like to understand....

Charging for extensions does not break the GPL. Good, I get that.

I understand that by not encrypting the code people would be able to modify/redistribute freely. I currently use over a dozen various extension. half of them available for free (Pretty sure they came from the developer who created them), half of them purchased and only 3 are encrypted.

So my question is, other than code that is encrypted, can users illegally redistribute this code now and are they doing so? If they are doing so, how are they doing so and has it been a large problem? or how has this been prevented?

I am truly serious, I am trying to understand what would be different.

whoops, forgot. I agree with the sentiment earlier. I would not freely distribute something I had paid for.

Thanks,
Marni
Marni -

I have never once heard of a 3PD indicating that end users redistributing their proprietary extensions posed a serious problem to their businesses. I have only heard of the "pirate" sites as a concern. (And most end users don't go there now or even know about the sites.)

As you might attest to, most end users are happy to successfully install their software on their webservers. They have no interest in distributing the software - and they very likely don't even know anyone who uses Joomla! who may want to use the extension.

Maybe a 3PD will answer differently - but - in response to your question, I do not believe end users redistribute software illegally to any significant extent today. And, I don't believe they will begin distributing extensions more in the future.

Thanks for staying with the discussion. Your perspective is very valuable,
Amy :)
Last edited by AmyStephen on Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by AmyStephen » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:41 pm

Nice post, BigWaxer!  8)

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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by marnijderr » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:45 pm

bigwaxer wrote:
Joom is not going away. The FUD put out by the 3pd as threats on how it will tear down the #1 cms is really not true. Too many people use it and in the end someone will make up for the slack. If not me someone else.
I agree. Please don't say without 3PD's the users will all go away and Joomla! will fail.  I would still use Joomla! I would like both Joomla and the extensions to stay around.

Question:

If someone can freely distribute an extension, does that mean they can legally sell it as their extension? I can't find an answer to that. That would disappoint me.

Or..can they just sell it as part of a larger whole? Isn't this happening already with some templates?

Why would someone buy an extension and then offer it up freely to others?

I don't really know anything about pirating...just trying to understand the business model that would be caused to fail due to the redistribution clauses.

thanks,
Marni
Last edited by marnijderr on Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by p9939068 » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:46 pm

AmyStephen wrote: If I might I ask you - will you continue to purchase extensions you need from third party developers, even if the extensions are GPL'ed? Or, would you search the Internet for locations that these extensions are available for free?

If you don't want to answer, that's fine. But, I suspect people are underestimating the integrity and loyalty of the Joomla! end user base.
No offense, but I believe that is perhaps the most nonsensical thing you've said so far. Let me give you an example:

I have several free GPL extensions available. I also have a donation module on my site. Total downloads as of now: more than 7000. Total donations: $0.00. It's the same everywhere, in many GPL projects, even HUGE ones like virtuemart. Just take a look at the financial statement released by Joomla recently. Millions of users - a meagre $14k donations.

Now to be very honest, I'm not complaining. Nobody's going to pay for something they don't need to, and i respect that. Please do not sensationalize the whole issue by giving it fairytale adjectives like "integrity" and "loyalty", it's got nothing to do with that. It's just pure, plain common sense, and i think everyone has the right to excercise some common sense. And if you reject that, you're simply rejecting reality, and that makes your views and opinions moot, IMO. Me, and most people I know of in real life, are not interested in basing our actions on the irrelevance. That's what causes companies to fall.
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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by p9939068 » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:52 pm

marnijderr wrote: I agree. Please don't say without 3PD's the users will all go away and Joomla! will fail.  I would still use Joomla! I would like both Joomla and the extensions to stay around.
You may not, and I'm sure many won't. But many else would, especially individuals building serious websites and/or enterprise sites.
marnijderr wrote: If someone can freely distribute an extension, does that mean they can legally sell it as their extension? I can't find an answer to that. That would disappoint me.
They cannot legally sell it as theirs explicitly, but they can legally sell it nonetheless - at any price - either saying the extensions belongs to the owner or not (just leave the name in the source codes, but who looks at the source codes?)
marnijderr wrote: Why would someone buy and extension and then offer it up freely to others?
A group of people can come up with the money, sharing the costs among themselves, for just one copy that will work for all of them. They can then release it for free, together with hundreds and hundreds of other commercial GPL extensions, on their website, and then charge a price for users to register on it. Don't think this will happen? Wrong: It has already happened, but I refuse to release the website's address. (its name is enough to make me puke)
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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by AmyStephen » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:55 pm

marnijderr wrote:
bigwaxer wrote:
Joom is not going away. The FUD put out by the 3pd as threats on how it will tear down the #1 cms is really not true. Too many people use it and in the end someone will make up for the slack. If not me someone else.
I agree. Please don't say without 3PD's the users will all go away and Joomla! will fail.  I would still use Joomla! I would like both Joomla and the extensions to stay around.

Question:

If someone can freely distribute an extension, does that mean they can legally sell it as their extension? I can't find an answer to that. That would disappoint me.

Or..can they just sell it as part of a larger whole? Isn't this happening already with some templates?

Why would someone buy an extension and then offer it up freely to others?

I don't really know anything about pirating...just trying to understand the business model that would be caused to fail due to the redistribution clauses.

thanks,
Marni
Yes - Marni - that is the concern. The GPL liberates code in that it allows end users to view code, learn from it, modify it and redistribute it to others. The GPL also allows the user to charge for distribution.

As a bizarre (in my mind) example, you could take Joomla! core and redistribute it for a charge, assuming you can find people willing to buy it.

So, 3PDs who offer proprietary extensions are concerned that if they relicense their extensions with a GPL-compliant license that others will simply redistribute their code, as allowed by the GPL.

That's why process and community values come into play, and why it is a good idea to come up with GPL-friendly business models, like Sam blogged about today.

Yup, Marni - you are understanding the challenge!
Amy :)

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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by p9939068 » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:57 pm

bigwaxer wrote: I hate to jump into this...

But in the end using Centos  as an example is actually a very very bad example... Do you think Red Hats bottom line is affected by this?
Red Hat probably IMO is the top and best example of what open source can provide.

My problems here... and I haven't chimed in much.

Wait first a perspective, I am huge on using GPL products. In fact the only non-gpl product I use is at work and thats Windows... which I have no choice, if it was my call everyone would be using Fedora / PCLOS / Ubuntu... but lets not go there.

Faults lie on both sides. Yes Joom allowed this to go on since the start = fault Joom

3pd = Knew this, knew the risk and put all there eggs in one basket. Fault=3pd

Joom is not going away. The FUD put out by the 3pd as threats on how it will tear down the #1 cms is really not true. Too many people use it and in the end someone will make up for the slack. If not me someone else.

Many GPL projects make a lot of money. As a user what bothers me is the lack of vision by some 3pd. Why not think outside the box. There are plenty of ways to make money.

In the end this all started really because of the encryption. Well honestly IMO and not to flame away if you want to protect your code and not share to improve it then you shouldn't have been working on an GPL platform to begin with.

In closing I think no matter the decision it will have little effect on the joom community overall. Some will leave, some will adapt. Just  the nature of the biz. GPL projects of many kinds make a lot of money - The key I think is again thinking outside of the pay to download. I have been in the web biz for years and the key is eggs / 1 basket dont do it.
Let me answer that with my own post from another forum:
Again, I have to disagree. It's not about focusing on every aspect. It's not about being creative and coming up  with GPL-suitable business model. It's not about providing paid support. It's not about providing paid training. It's not about providing paid documentation. It's not about....trust me, many of us here are very, very well acquainted with the many business models, GPL-compliant or not.

The key issue (in fact the one and only) you should consider is the fact that not every developer-product-business model (with any combination of the 3) can operate under a purist version of GPL (I can name you several off the top of my head), but if that such a version is ever applied, it means everyone - regardless of his/her developer-product-business model combination - has to comply.

Let me give you an example. You create an extension that serves a very particular purpose - a niche market. Your extension is of very good quality, with no bugs, installs with zero problems (even a dummy can do it), and is very easy to use, with clear instructions on the admin backend. It fits a straightforward purpose, thus no future upgrading is needed. You are a busy person working on other things on hand, so you absolutely have no time to handle subscriptions. Also, your target clients are people who can't be bothered with subscriptions (again, niche market) Basically, your user does not require any after-sales support whatsoever, and documentation is irrelevant. Lets say, then, you release your extension as commercial GPL. Someone buys it, and the next day it's all over google. Effectively, there is a very real possibility that you sell 1 copy, and that's it.

So how are you going to ensure revenue? Are you going to purposefully implement bugs, or make the extension so hard to operate, that customers will have to pay you for continued support? There are people doing that, mind you, but that utterly defeats the idea of creating quality extensions (which is what we're continuously telling everyone - that commercial developers have a vested interest in creating quality extensions), and it is the users at the losing end. By forcing everyone to sell commercial extensions under GPL, it turns out that the developer has a vested interest in not developing quality extensions instead.

Not to mention the fact that all those months of hard work you've put in into your work just got pirated. And don't even think about "oh, some users may support my work by paying for it". Forget that! You only have 100 customers to begin with (niche market, remember?), and accept it, nobody is paying for something they can get for free.

So you can see, it's not about us "focusing on one aspect and missing the others". We can keep going on and on about the possibilities, but all that achieve is diluting what is the key issue: that the purist GPL cannot be forced onto everyone on a one-size-fits-all basis.


-edit-
To explain further why proprietary non-GPL commercial developers have a vested interest in creating quality extensions: No user in his/her right mind will pay for a product *and* pay for support. Therefore most developers provide support for free (some even provide future upgrades for free). Creating a business around proprietary software under a non-GPL license is very straightforward: Developer creates, customer buys, and no re-distribution whatsoever. Therefore, the primary source of revenue is sales. In order to boost sales, the developer has to ensure that he creates quality extensions.
When you wish to provide advise, you should stick with reality, and not with "ideals". Businesses are not built on ideals, and in most cases, not even models.

MOD NOTE: Removed vulgar term. - UNIXBOYMD
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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by marnijderr » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:57 pm

I don't really think that is the issue here. Gad's I could be wrong though, my head is spinning. I've never stayed in a debate this far, but I have a lot riding on Joomla.

The question for me is not hey, look at this cool calendar and it's free!  But what I have experienced. I download a free extension, which I have done. It is limited, or has no support, or simply does not work the way I want it to. I go back out looking. I find a similar extension, only I need to pay for this one. I check the forums, good reviews. I ask a few question....this is what I need so I pay for it and am happy doing so.
(this is not to say all free extensions are sloppy, I have many and continue to use them).

I don't believe it is a question of not buying when something else is offered for free.  The decision to buy or not buy is based on the end users needs and whether or not the extension is of value and better than the competition.

I think the issue is stealing someone's hard work and offering that for free.

Yes?
Marni

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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by AmyStephen » Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:01 am

p9939068 wrote:
AmyStephen wrote: If I might I ask you - will you continue to purchase extensions you need from third party developers, even if the extensions are GPL'ed? Or, would you search the Internet for locations that these extensions are available for free?

If you don't want to answer, that's fine. But, I suspect people are underestimating the integrity and loyalty of the Joomla! end user base.
No offense, but I believe that is perhaps the most nonsensical thing you've said so far. Let me give you an example:

I have several free GPL extensions available. I also have a donation module on my site. Total downloads as of now: more than 7000. Total donations: $0.00. It's the same everywhere, in many GPL projects, even HUGE ones like virtuemart. Just take a look at the financial statement released by Joomla recently. Millions of users - a meagre $14k donations.
You took my quote out of context. We were talking about processes. Read the last couple of pages, if you haven't already, and help us think of ways to support the commercial 3PD's by making certain we route traffic to their websites.

It's pretty much always offensive, Mike, to call someone's statement "nonsensical." It doesn't diminish the offense to say "no offense."  ;)

I'm not here to debate you. This is a thread for end users with concerns so I have tried to respond to those.

All the best,
Amy :)

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Re: GPL Questions Continued, User related

Post by phil_roy » Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:03 am

And I'm not sure if I'm saying teh same thing Marni, but to add to your statement and to respond to Amy when she said...
Over time, it will be smart for 3PD's to migrate from software sales to service operations.
That, as an end user really worries me. 1...because I don't think many 3DPs will and it is a 'big ask'...2...because I'm not interested in paying for support or service...I'm interested in paying for product and I expect...and have mostly been overwhelmingly pleased (but not always)...that support be included.

Effectively, it's asking both 3DPs to change their business model and for users to support such an approach....when (going way back to a post I said somewhere) I'm not sure many users were unhappy with the model that had been in place.

Cheers,

Phil

 

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