no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

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no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby newart » Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:47 am

I've seen a great work done for the next release of beta 1.1 (I presume on april) and above all I've read a lot of ideas and suggestions for improving Joomla, but I've observed that the no-editor feature for submit/edit contents is, in my humble opinion, extremely useless.

All of us know the logic of our cms, that is it has to be simple and flexible. So if you take a look at the no-editor feature you could wonder the real "what's for"... Indeed you can choose among sundry wysiwyg editors and if you need, or simply want, a faster and simpler way of submitting/editing contents you can choose the no-editor option, but here is the problem!

In sundry sites by parish missions around the globe, mostly inside the well-known technology gap... a site with all those magnifique editors is really "trash": nobody can surf a site due for technology limits and even for visibility (displays aren't so wide!). This isn't a simple problem of accessibility, if you think so! It is a problem of a cms development in which we have to think as follows: simple & flexible & for everyone!

In this quarter one of Joomla efforts is to deliver a multi-language contest available and working within the Joomla framework but the multi-language goal is directly related to this: the rest (sorry for this way of describing the other parts of the world, it is only for avoiding any misunderstanding) of the world hasn't got our communication / technology / hardware level but they are very very interested in Joomla!

I've tried in my experience to understand where joomla is "guilty" in certain difficulties around the net and I can say that the very limit is the editor delivered in the core package, I mean the no-editor.

I think, in general, that if you write line by line, you don't like to insert the br tag or in many cases you don't know or don't want to know to do that. And even in the admin part, this hard (yes, hard and sounds useless) work is an useless effort and time consuming... (Please note that aren't any flat connection, or if you like, why to pay for it...? - There are a lot of points of view.)

In my discussions a friend of mine in brazil said that the I-don't-like phpnuke is simple for this purpose. You insert your lines and after submitting your content you obtain automatically the br tags added to the text.

Sorry for having write so long for a simple matter but I'd like to harden my talkings about this problem. A problem that I see is not in our agenda but I know it isn't so difficult to understand if well explained. I hope that my explanations are useful for avoing a missing mission of our Joomla! that is for everyone, but really for everyone!

Studing how to remedy to this lack of attention towards the "different level of the net" for implementing this feature is open to tips and suggestions by everyone. I know that our core devs are great due for the Great work done, expecially in these months, surprising  :) :) and I hope they can find a simple solution for taking care of this matter... (I know even they are very busy now, in another post Jinx assured us to develop another great idea about his form generator  - see also: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,35279.0.html - but also if I don't read anything about in his blog, I wait for it hopefully) The problem is now that if this "change" of way of using the no-editor is welcomed by them  :-[

PS. due for the wide and hard daily work why not to ask for joining to the core dev members... other people (?!)  I see in many posts a lot of competent users... and the roadmap would be "sure".  :-*
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby eyezberg » Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:26 am

newart, I have a real hard time understanding what it is you do not like about the no-editor option, is it just that it won't auto-insert BR's, or is there more to it? (poi rispondere via PM or mail anche in italiano, penso di capire..)

To Dev's: a reminder about something discussed some time ago:
option to set WYSIWYG editor on/ff for each content item (content tab; not user, not global) to avoid corrupting and or scrambling pasted 3rd party scripts - is that still on the list somewhere?
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby Jinx » Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:59 pm

Newart,

I second Joe, could u please try to specifiy what in particular u don't like on the no-editor option.

@Joe : the dynamic enabling/disabling of an editor need to be done in the actual editor. We could do it for TinyMCE, but other editors would need to do it themselves.
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby eyezberg » Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:50 pm

I didn't mean dynamic, I meant an extra db filed on content items table: editor 0/1 which gets iy's value from a checkbox? So this is a permanent state, and editing an item with the editor enabled would still NOT show it on those items marked as "no".. or what means "dynamic" here? Thx Johan, and sorry to spam the post, newart; waiting for your clarifications? ;)
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby newart » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:33 pm

ok, I'll try to be more specific on my post.

In short I don't like how the no-editor works. I think that if a no-editor is a no-editor you have to let all written words as inserted, that is not to see all sentences together but as submitted by an user. You can see them in the DB and even when you are an administrator in editing mode as inserted, but as an user in front page you don't see in that way.

All solutions are wellcome. I don't like a particular solution or an automatic BR tag insert. My idea is to find a solution in the core as I have see a gap (perhaps is more similar to a wall) that don't make joomla universal as we'd like.

Moreover I've tried to point out a problem from this specific problem to an high level, Joomla must remember to be not only simple and flexible but even for everyone. And so it is important a fast and not-only-for-Adsl/56k cms.

I avoid to write more as I fear to let my post hard to understand, even if there is more to discuss...

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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby eyezberg » Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:06 pm

Read ;)
I think I understood, even though my italian girlfriend was about 10+ years ago ;)
Correct me if I'm wrong, and please allow me to reformulate:

when creating content without an editor, you can insert spaces and new lines which show fine in db and admin textarea even when reediting after save. but in the frontend, what the user sees is a text stripped of all whitespace, tabs, linebreaks etc; one sentence after the other.. yes?

example: instead of

"fgggg    hhhhh jj
hgghhh      jjjjjj
"

the user gets:

"fgggg hhhhh jj hgghhh jjjjjj"
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby newart » Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:12 pm

:D you're very clever! yes, and that problem is a like a wall for many friends!
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby newart » Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:07 pm

??? any reply?
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby prova » Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:41 pm

newart wrote: ??? any reply?


:( :o like a videogame: you loose, sorry Joomla looses. Dont worrry newat and thanks for your help!  :'(
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby DeanMarshall » Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:54 pm

Hi,

My undestanding of the situation is that the 'no editor' option is for direct input of HTML which ignores 'whitespace'.
Newart seems to want a 'No editor' option that still allows some form of WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get).

Perhaps an option to allow for wrapping content in a
 tag or similar to allow for 'as is' entry of text.
This seems similar to other requests seen fairly frequently for a wiki mark-up system.

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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby prova » Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:34 am

DeanMarshall said --> * This seems similar to other requests seen fairly frequently for a wiki mark-up system *

Newart said --> * All solutions are wellcome. I don't like a particular solution or an automatic BR tag insert. My idea is to find a solution in the core as I have see a gap (perhaps is more similar to a wall) that don't make joomla universal as we'd like. *

Can Joomla do it? Why doesn't joomla understand our needs?  ???

Please newart, eyezberg, Jinx, DeanMarshall ---> find out a solution  :(
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby DeanMarshall » Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:02 am

With all due respect prova, it has taken us this far to try and ascertain your needs.

The comment of mine you reference was an attempt to clarify what exactly you require.
If indeed you are after a 'wiki' markup syntax then you are probably asking for quite major additional feature that would need to be implemented on the text entry end of things, validation on submitting the content, and presumably a fairly intensive process of converting wiki to html when the html is prepared for output.

Sorry, but I think that before this is seriously considered you have to do a better job of explaining your needs.
Why are you trying to use the 'no editor' option without entering html? Does the option need renaming?
Why don't you just use the wysiwyg editor? What doesn't it do that you need?
Is your issue simply that you don't want a new paragraph every time you hit 'return' - if so hold down the shift while you press return to get a newline
tag.
There is already a 'mark-up' allowed with the no-editor to indicate content formatting - it is called HTML.
Why is your idea of implied markup or wiki markup better than the wysiwyg or direct html content preparation methods currently available.
How many users would use this / benefit from this?
Any idea how difficult this would be to implement - any libraries / classes already available?

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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby prova » Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:00 pm

DeanMarshall said --> Sorry, but I think that before this is seriously considered you have to do a better job of explaining your needs.

= My needs are for users in areas with gap technology and low connections such as Mindanao, Uganda, Brazil, Giordania, etc. Our sites are for poor users... but they need the net!

DeanMarshall said --> Why are you trying to use the 'no editor' option without entering html?

= Usually a user of ours writes a text (usually users don't know any code or html and we cannot teach them - personnaly I can't...) with simple editors and then they submit it simply with a copy and paste. Within few seconds in the net they paste their text, but if there is a wysiwyg editor there are too many problems, for low connection (sometimes there is a break in connection) and for their old computers with low memory.

DeanMarshall said --> Why don't you just use the wysiwyg editor? What doesn't it do that you need?

= As above written We cannot use Joomla in this bad condition. We have to select the no-editor option but we see it's useless for our needs. We see that we have to enter as administrator for inserting a br where needed, and the problem is for the administrator too. Also the administrators are users! They have the same problems.


===>* I need a simple way for insering a simple text in a fast and simple way *
I don't know why you can do it - perhaps with a new option called "no-editor but as is"...

So I repeat what newart said --> * we have to think as follows: simple & flexible & for everyone! *

PLEASE LET JOOMLA BE FOR EVERYONE!  :(
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby Hackwar » Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:42 pm

I think this is probably not something for the core. As a solution for you, I would suggest you search for a simple HTML wysiwyg editor that those guys can use locally on their PCs. I used AOLpress some years ago. It was freeware, but has been discontinued some time ago. You can probably find something similar somewhere in the OSS community. When they use that editor, they can create their texts and then goto the code view and copy that into no_editor in Joomla.
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby newart » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:40 am

I've well read the last posts but I see there is problem, that is joomla has basically only 2 options:

- no-editor for html delivering text
- editor for a wysiwyg delivering text

What I said (as said by prova too) is that joomla needs to have a flexible submitting platform. In the core there are code lines for "filtering" the text in order to get a endless text. My idea is to select by option the "result" of a submitted text.

- If you need a no-editor option for html purposes
- If you need an as-is option for viewing as submitted (you can see now only by administrator or in the DB field)
- If you need a wysiwyg option

You can see only 3 if conditional in our php and the result is to expand the accessibility and usability for our users! I can mention every type of troubles about using what available at the moment in joomla, but I don't... My goal is to point out our missing option (and mission, that is J! for everyone) and for the renamed version called 1.5 I hope we can solve this WALL.

@ prova - I cannot do anything as I'm not a core dev but when possible I'll do all my effort for the risolution of this unbelievable wall. Joomla is open source and open IMHO is also said with this meaning: for everyone  ;)
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby DeanMarshall » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:08 am

Thanks to 'prova' for explaining the issues of bandwidth, complexity and
older technologies.

I think I have a potential solution for you:

Use the no wysiwyg editor and wrap your text in a
 
block.
This should get somewhere close to what you are after.

Code: Select all

<pre>
your text here
with a second line here

And a new paragraph here
</pre>


I have just tested this and it appears to work. Of course educating your
users to do this may be an issue, but it isn't a steep learning curve.

The only issue I can think of is that there may be problems with html entities
for example <  and >, users would have to learn to enter < and > when
entering these symbols for display.

I am not sure how bad this would be in terms of Search Engine Optimisation
and related issues as effectively it would remove document structure.

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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby prova » Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:01 pm

DeanMarshall wrote:I have just tested this and it appears to work. Of course educating your
users to do this may be an issue, but it isn't a steep learning curve.

I am not sure how bad this would be in terms of Search Engine Optimisation
and related issues as effectively it would remove document structure.


Thanks for your tip. It seems simple to me too. One question: is it possible to have it in joomla without any warning or educating information? There are unknown users and I think how to educate them? And about mistakes....

For avoiding any mistake or delay I'd like to see this option available in joomla. On the contrary who knows this tip...

Is it difficult to develop that in joomla?  :-\ I like the tip but if you change version of joomla... is this tip "forever" ? ??? ? Or in the future I can have troubles & problems... ? ??? ?

And moreover what about the "related issues" problems for Search Optimisation ??? I thanks again for the tip but I know phpnuke does it without understanding anything at all... Why it isn't possible in joomla  :o
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby DeanMarshall » Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:32 pm

>> is it possible to have it in joomla without any warning or educating information?
...
>> Is it difficult to develop that in joomla?

I can't speak for the developers - like you I am just a Joomla user.
It would probably be possible to edit a php file or two so that the
 and 
tags were implemented by Joomla and didn't need to be entered by your users, but this would not be an ideal solution - it would mean that no-one could use the wysiwyg editors effectively (including you) which is probably not what you are after. Some restructuring of the core would probably be needed for a more effective solution.

>> I like the tip but if you change version of joomla... is this tip "forever" ? Huh ? Or in the future I can have troubles & problems... ? Huh
This technique relies purely on standard HTML and as such should be fairly future proof.

I am not sure whether an editor more like the one in this forum could be ported to Joomla. I suspect it could be done, but I don't know how much work it would involve. I suspect that it wouldn't be that tricky for someone who knew what they were doing - but I am still not sure how many people would prefer this type of plain text 'editor'.

>>And moreover what about the "related issues" problems for Search Optimisation
The problem is simply that your text wont be properly structured as paragraphs, etc. Your words will still be visible to the Search Engines, they will just have slightly less context.

>> I know phpnuke does it without understanding anything at all
Well Joomla isn't phpnuke. Joomla is set to take either plain HTML or input from a WYSIWYG editor - changing to accept plain text with either an explicit or an implied 'mark up' may be easy or it may be more difficult. I don't know.

As I said in there - I offer this info based purely on my understanding as a user.

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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby newart » Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:46 am

DeanMarshall wrote:...
I am not sure whether an editor more like the one in this forum could be ported to Joomla. I suspect it could be done, but I don't know how much work it would involve. I suspect that it wouldn't be that tricky for someone who knew what they were doing - but I am still not sure how many people would prefer this type of plain text 'editor'.
...


I think this is a good idea  :-\ but I'd like to see in the core as an option as I don't see any work done in this way by a 3rd party...  ;)
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby eyezberg » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:38 pm

You know what: how about a "basics-only" editor with only 3-4 buttons (quick loading, like Bold, Italic, whatever..) which has the editor feature of keeping pasted content as-is, and loads fast?
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby prova » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:21 pm

eyezberg wrote:You know what: how about a "basics-only" editor with only 3-4 buttons (quick loading, like Bold, Italic, whatever..) which has the editor feature of keeping pasted content as-is, and loads fast?


I agree, if it works I need that fast basic editor.  :'(  :'(

I know that hero / core dev are interested in developing great ideas... but if joomla is a basic platform why haven't you got a basic submission?  :(

Now you joomla heroes and experts have told me that the right solution is that fast basic editor, haven't you? So, please can you deliver it in the next joomla? I've read there is a next-generation joomla called 1.5 and I think it can be complete with this important option...  :-*

I understand that it is very hard to find a developer for this basic option... it is not "prestigeous", not important  :( :( :( but please if you like to widespread your joomla, make joomla fast and easy on submission matters too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And moreover, where are the developers for this problem? I don't understand how all is works, sorry  :-[
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby newart » Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:44 am

prova wrote:...
I know that hero / core dev are interested in developing great ideas... but if joomla is a basic platform why haven't you got a basic submission?  :(
...


This is my opinion, Joomla has to be complete! I ask for another option: "as submitted"  ;)

But I know that this work has to be done only in the core. I hope a core dev can post his idea about it...  :)
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby louis.landry » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:06 am

In fact it does not need to be in the core, you just need to build a custom editor plugin for this.  We have a default editor plugin (tiny_mce) which is packaged with the default Joomla install, but there are a great multitude of editors out there.

Some examples: http://extensions.joomla.org/component/ ... Itemid,35/

Someone just needs to build a very lightweight one that is fast to load and does what you want it to do.  What we provide in the core is a way for you to plug in whatever editor suits your needs, finding that editor or writing that editor is up to third party developers and the end users.

I understand your needs and can sympathize with your problem and requests, but building a custom editor is just out of scope for us at the moment.  We have too much work to do as it is.  This is where third party developers would need to step up and make something happen.

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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby newart » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:17 am

Dear Louis,
I know you're right. I decided to talk about this problem only because I don't see any specific work of a very simple editor. I see a lot of troubles even for users with phisic disabilities, too. So I can talk about "like a wall" for them...

I imagine a very simple editor with only a solved br tag in the core. I think only as a gift, a special gift for a lot of "lost users"...

I know your hard and great work and sorry for my post but I repeat that problem is a very special one, maybe not important but for special users it is extremely important. I know you guys sometimes deliver special add-ons not in the core, is it possible in this case?  :-[
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby louis.landry » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:33 am

If you can't find a 3pd to help you out with this by the time 1.5 is out I will work something out for you.

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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby raymond » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:43 am

I think I'd have to go with louis on this one.

Newart: What I think is going on is that you're equating the concepts of "no-editor" with "basic editor". The "no-editor" functions exactly as it should: no fancy WYSIWYG or RTF included. You just type in your HTML code and you're good to go. It is in no way to be construed to be a basic editor. In my opinion and experience, its best to use the "no-editor" for functions like tweaking existing code generated by WYSIWYG editors or copy-pasting pre-created and pre-formatted texts from a real HTML editor like, say, Dreamweaver or Frontpage. To add the feature you request to the "no-editor" would break its essential functionality, leaving those who just wish to copy-paste HTML or write it on their own at a loss as to why their code suddenly has all these
codes inserted. Again, I reiterate that the "no-editor" is NOT a "basic editor".

I believe that what you're looking for is a "basic editor" which has only the most basic functions included due to the technology (or lack of it) issues you are having including, but not limited to, CPU speed, memory constraints, bandwidth constraints, older OS and/or browser, etc. Believe me, I agree that this is an important issue but is not something to be adressed by the core devs. This would best be served by third-party developer who will make a bare-bones editor. The problem these days is that Joomla editors are going up in terms of features and technology. More buttons, more snazzy image editors, more boxes to click, more, more, more. If I'm not mistaken, these are the features most requested by people to be included. Sadly, I don't believe I've ever seen anyone looking to go down to a more basic level of editing text.

By "basic" I mean that hardly anyone thinks about implementing a bare-bones editor WYSIWYG editor containing only bold, italics, and underline. I mean, really, how many of us have thought about doing something this low-tech? However, in newart's case, its a reasonable request as not all people require the latest, most snazziest editor around. While I feel for your request, newart, again, this isn't a problem for the devs but more for a third-party developer. I don't believe this is the right thread for this and a new topic should be included in the mambots forums for something like this.

Lastly, there are other solutions for what you need albeit (sadly) involving even more expertise. There's an application called Blogg-X that has basic editor functions. You can find it at http://forge.joomla.org/sf/projects/blogg_x. The problem with this, however, is that you'll need to also install Java extensions which makes for quite a hefty download. It works fine, though.

Also, there's ContentbyMail. You can send your content items to a pre-configured email adress. Joomla then reads the mail, applies the formatting and files it into the appropriate section, category, and its own content item. This requires your users to know how to use WYSIWYG email but that might be more simpler. Its tough to configure but once you've finished through with it, it'll work like a charm.

Hope someone can work on this "basic editor" thing though. Other users might also require a bare-bones editor for non-technical users.
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby prova » Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:28 pm

raymond wrote:I mean, really, how many of us have thought about doing something this low-tech? However, in newart's case, its a reasonable request as not all people require the latest, most snazziest editor around. While I feel for your request, newart, again, this isn't a problem for the devs but more for a third-party developer.

Hope someone can work on this "basic editor" thing though. Other users might also require a bare-bones editor for non-technical users.


I think it is a joomla problem! I don't care of talking about who's guilty... You know there is this problem that newart said it's like a wall. Joomla isn't open to everyone, in this case  :( :( there people out of joomla for too many reasons and I'd like not to mention as it is well understandable!

I have this "problem", too. And I don't like to talk about me  >:( and I don't like to see this problem as not very popular....  ??? ??? ??? Popular or rated argument, but sorry for who  ??? :( :o

Newart said about problems in the net, I say about accessibility problems. This is the most important thing we need; an option to let us submit a content without any problem and to be part of this very good joomla.

I repeat what newart said as I like very much: Joomla is open source and open IMHO is also said with this meaning: for everyone

and if there is no solution I consider what said by louis.landry as a promise, a duty, ok?  :-*  Because I see you are an important person in joomla being a Core member and because you said that "If you can't find a 3pd to help you out with this by the time 1.5 is out I will work something out for you.
".

And about what said by raymond I thank you a lot for your post but we don't use java, email techinques... we need a simpler and faster way of inserting a text, stop!

And please newart don't write this problem isn't important, I thank you again and again for all your help (You're great!) but please write saying that It very important and we have to be part of joomla  :-[
Vorrei ringraziare http://www.joomla.org per avermi dato la possibilità di essere presente su internet anche se non ci capisco niente di programmazione.

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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby bishnoi » Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:00 pm

Hello Dear freinds,
I read each line of this discussion.Tried to understand the Discussion.

one   question remains:  Do you need a new lightweight/basic editor? ;)
or ARE YOU AGAINST NO-EDITOR ? >:(
Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request )
Last edited by bishnoi on Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Let us know what works and to mark your thread as [SOLVED], use Thread Tools on forum page.

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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby alexred » Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:26 pm

newart wrote:I imagine a very simple editor with only a solved br tag in the core. I think only as a gift, a special gift for a lot of "lost users"...


I agree with newart, too.  ;)
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Re: no-editor useless - 1.1 change request

Postby eyezberg » Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:16 pm

Forza Italia ;)

Just wondering, have you ever tried to set Tiny parameter to "Simple" (instead of advanced with all the buttons) in the mambot edit screen and check if load times go down / are acceptable?
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