About the design of the administration? Topic is solved

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by H13 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:48 pm

I have a question regarding buttons in Joomla! 4 backend template. Is there a reason (e.g. A11Y rules) why the buttons cannot have "standard" full background color without having borders in other color?

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by brian » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:23 pm

To answer that question - there is no accessibility reason.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by darb » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:22 am

I see this blog post from Victor Drover from end of Jan and it was also interesting thoughts about Joomla future. https://watchful.net/blog/news/fun-fric ... of-joomla/

Did kawshar and his team from Joomshaper do anything more about the backend template?
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by brian » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:32 pm

no
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:05 pm

For the top and left menu subject;
I see no problem to have them both, they have both their role, the top menu is more about information, communication and about the user account. The left menu is the Joomla control menu.

I still prefer to have both these menus the same background colour as they are both menus, it visually binds them as menus with an identical background and it visually delimits the working page .section (with the white background).
Now, that white top menu renders the overall visual confusing.

Also, the tonality of the colours used are a bit too cold, they should be on a warmer side to be more “friendly” and “active”

Modifying the colour scheme should be fast and easy to do.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by herb200mph » Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:38 am

One obvious problem with the admin screens is everything takes up too much screen space. Is it necessary to have the blocks so big with so much space and padded between the icons and the name. The screens could be more compact and require less scrolling and bopping eyeballs around to find something.

Am still confused why the "System" link does have the same ">" and boxes to click to the admin screen. What is the logical reason to "not" make it the same as all other sections?

On every screen, the module blocks are too wide and consume too much vertical space.

But, pointing out these issues is like using a fire hose on a forest fire - the effort does not good because it appears that the designers are "married" to this spread out, space wasting, dysfunctional admin design.

New users will be easily befuddled ...
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by bruno28 » Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:41 am

+1 for the spaces too big
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by edwin007 » Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:22 pm

As I have already mentioned, spaces really are too big. I love the idea of a top and side menu, but side menu should be more intuitive and easy to use. Should've just taken the Joomla! 3 top menu as is and transplanted it to the side (with new improvements and additions). The existing menu order would work well. That way we know exactly where to find things and new users are not intimidated.

SYSTEM >
- sub menus
USERS >
- sub menus
MENUS >
- sub menus
CONTENT >
- sub menus
COMPONENTS >
- sub menus
EXTENSIONS >
- sub menus
HELP >
- sub menus

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by herb200mph » Fri May 08, 2020 1:37 pm

Can see that the design is "dug in" and nothing will be changing. So, no sense whining about it and just deal with it. Having enough right now trying to figure out what REDIRECTS are for and how used. Go look and let me know. Thanks.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Fri May 08, 2020 2:00 pm

Can see that the design is "dug in" and nothing will be changing. So, no sense whining about it and just deal with it.
I can see in my Palantir that one ore more “Designers” are fighting hard to keep this design and brush away the overall majority telling them to do something about this.

I can also see that they are young and proud just as I was in my younger designer days. Now, I learn to listen and stand back from my work. When I do that, I can see my mistakes and now willing to correct them.

This make my work better.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by toivo » Fri May 08, 2020 3:46 pm

Happy to report that repeated installations of J4 Nightly Builds with the J4 Patch Tester RC2 and putting a couple of PRs through their paces has helped make the J4 back end more intuitive to use. BTW, highly recommended activity!
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by ies » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:44 am

I came late here...

This topic has too many pages with opinions, fixes and corrections about the admin template and it is not easy to read them all.

But there is an easy conclusion: When a template has so many arguments then it means that it can't be fixed. It simply needs to start from the beginning with new ideas.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Webdongle » Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:42 am

ies wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:44 am
.... It simply needs to start from the beginning with new ideas.
So who will start it from the beginning and who's ideas, there are (as you point out) many differing ones, would they incorporate?
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by ies » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:21 pm

Possibly Khonsu is the next best template to try?

Also, I know that graphic designers are able to take an existing template and make significant fixes in order to have the same layout but a much better design.

Whatever the solution is, I prefer a delayed new version of Joomla than a controversial one.

It seems to me that we have spent more time trying to correct things in the Atum template than the time spent in its development.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Jaydot » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:39 pm

ies wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:44 am
... so many arguments...
Are there really so many arguments? Or are there just a few people repeating their opinion over and over again? I've taken a look at J4 beta, and I honestly don't understand what the fuss is about. The backend looks clean and pleasant, and I found everything I needed in no time. If you really don't like it when you upgrade to J4, customize it. Or use another template.
The fact that an opinion is widely held is no evidence whatsoever that it is not utterly absurd.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by gws » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:41 pm

@jaydot +1 needed saying.

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by ies » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:57 am

There are some other topics where you can see more people complaining about the admin template.
And I admit that I am one of the guys who complain too much about the admin template.
But I want the next Joomla version to be the best and not only good or simply new.

For many years I didn't use to write so many posts because I don't consider myself an expert in something.
But this case is too huge and important to let it pass without insisting.

Just see the comparison in the following image and tell me if you could accept the left choice when you could have the right.
Image: download/file.php?id=128765&t=1

Furthermore, in the following topic I wrote some suggestions for the frontend (along with the backend).
I would like someone to tell me if he/she agrees or not.
Topic: viewtopic.php?f=803&t=980828

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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Jaydot » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:47 am

ies wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:57 am
...if you could accept the left choice when you could have the right...
Okay, I'll answer that: I much prefer the left choice. This is a backend, for crying out loud. It's meant for SU's and admins, not for general users and site visitors. SU's and admins are not there to admire the view, they are there because they are working on the site.
I do not want the backend to look fancy, nor distract me with icons and colors and information I don't immediately need. I want it to be as clean and uncluttered as possible!
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by bruno28 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:13 pm

+1 useful and easy
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by herb200mph » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:41 pm

If you also mean compact, easy to navigate, get to management locations quickly and easily, no need to scroll up and downs screens etc, then THIS back-end doesn't cut it.

However, let's also keep in mind that us'ns, the experienced users, have a different view of the back-end, but to new users, THIS back-end cannot be less intuitive than it is now.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by darb » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:01 pm

A schooled designer is a creative professional art where you need those specific experienced skills, knowledge and education in this field to deliver the whole package of attraction to people.

The process for creating a good modern improved Joomla backend and front end design have to and have been followed hopefully by these first very important process steps in an important redesign project.

In my experience this is not the same people that are the coders and doing php,db and testing work - these design people have other great important skills to be listening at and are needed as the first step to be followed by doing the coding work but also to be as the designers wants it to be. If we try to do it the other way around the result won’t be as good as doing it by the redesign process book of a project.

A coder is not a designer and vice versa normally.

Testing is a good way to see if the majority of people/users that using Joomla like design A or design B,.. etc so there is an understanding that Joomla should fit with the “customers need and want” - not biased by a few strong voices.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by herb200mph » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:49 pm

Nor should those with strong voices be dead-eared and stonewalled by the coders. Yes?
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:01 am

ust see the comparison in the following image and tell me if you could accept the left choice when you could have the right.
Image: download/file.php?id=128765&t=1
admin-tmpl-cf.png
Well this is simple. On the left side you have an uncluttered boring interface with cold colours and on the right you have an uncluttered cool interface that is inviting to work in.

This is the difference!
kawshar template overall design was what Joomla 4 deserve and sadly we went back to that cold boring interface for probably the most importent event in Joomla life history.

Let’s go back to the source of design here:
UX design refers to the term “user experience design”, while UI stands for “user interface design”

JOOMLA ACTUAL TEMPLATE
The UX of Joomla 4 is OK and I see improvement in each iterations (I’m out of testing Joomla 4 for month now)

The UI is not, cold colours, unexplainable colours choice for major element, wrong sizing and placement of elements (e.g. Why the top white menu bar that brake the visual flow and confuse menus and working space).
Please fix theses, we talk about few hours of work... obviously somebody somewhere is protecting these choice even against the large community input.

Also, I will simply wait for Joomla 4 presentation until this is fix.

THE LATE KAWSHAR ALTERNATIVE
One person in this story that was a key to permit Joomla 4 to get the real WOW! administration deserve our attention and it’s kawshar.

Sadly read his saga with Joomla on this Github repository — https://github.com/joomla-projects/j4adminui/issues/186

Take the time to read and look at Joomla response and help for this real alternative.

I feel sorry for kawshar and also for Joomla.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by ceford » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:40 pm

This comment made me laugh:
Well this is simple. On the left side you have an uncluttered boring interface with cold colours and on the right you have an uncluttered cool interface that is inviting to work in.
There isn't really any significant difference between the two templates. Atum is business blue by default and Khonsu is not much different but has icons and text that do not meet modern accessibility standards. You can change colours in Atum - here is a green theme to chew on:
template-greens.png
If anyone wants to use Khonsu they can clone it and fix it for Joomla! 4 and then offer it as a third party extension. The fact is the Joomla team does not have the time or personnel to maintain multiple templates and should not be goaded into doing so. Atum is fine! Not perfect but very good.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by toivo » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:45 pm

@ceford +1
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Jaydot » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:46 pm

@ceford: +1
(edit: toivo, synchronicity :) )
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by Chacapamac » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:59 pm

There isn't really any significant difference between the two templates. Atum is business blue by default and Khonsu is not much different but has icons and text that do not meet modern accessibility standards. You can change colours in Atum - here is a green theme to chew on:
NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE ?????

Now I understand why we are still talking about this...

Why people waste their time with a post with close to 400,000 views and 415 replies, as we seing in this quote, everybody should be happy ?

But, my friend, even if i respect your opinion, that very post point probably to a REAL EXISTING PROBLEM.

These 2 templates are as different as a banana to a monkey wrench.

Note: God Thanks we will be able to change colors, that’s a good news...
But your green experiment will not probably win any design prices.
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Re: About the design of the administration?

Post by darb » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:31 am

So why not start a smaller "Joomla 4 backend template redesign" group with designers that can make an new fresh alternative after Joomla 4 stable is released? Working directly with the new stable Joomla 4 admin template integration as the basis when released.

Then this group can come up with improvements iterations designs after Joomla 4 and its std template is released and work with a new fully functional backend template that is up to all UX/UI standards.

When it 100% accepted/improved it can be taken into core if production dep accept it.
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