SMF bridge for Joomla discontinued

[ehanuise]

And what about the bridging solutions for commercial forums such as IPB or VBulletin ?
I did not pore into the details of joomla/smf/ipb/VBuletin licensing, but

1) I have a very hard time understanding that Joomla team has a problem with the licensing of SMF (which is not GPL compatible, indeed, but is still a very open and permissive license) and not with the commercially licensed forums

2) I have an even harder time understanding the problem arises first with SMF in stead of IPB and /or VBulletin bridges/hacks

3) I'm not even mentioning the huge quantity of plugins/bots/... for joomla that are not GPL. Will we see all of them wither and die one after the other for the very same reason ??

I'm starting up a website that uses Joomla and SMF, and tought it was a great upgrade from PHPnuke/phpBB. Now I'm not sure anymore.
A solid forum is a very important part of any community web site, and joomlaboard is simply not up to the task. It's one thing to have great plans for the future and be careful about the licenses compatibility, it's another to suddenly left your userbase with no solution. 

So if you need properly formulated questions,

1 an 2) why does this license problem arise with SMF which is under an open and permissive (albeit not gpl) license and not with the bridges for iPB or VBulletin which are commercially licensed ?

3) What will happen with all of the components and extensions that are not GPL licensed , Will the joomla team eventually remove all of them ?

[motokochan]

1) I have a very hard time understanding that Joomla team has a problem with the licensing of SMF (which is not GPL compatible, indeed, but is still a very open and permissive license) and not with the commercially licensed forums

The GPL is only compatible with itself and licenses that have less restrictive terms. The license SMF and the bridge are under has more/different restrictions, and thus is not compatible. Commercial forums are also in violation, see my answer to number 2.

2) I have an even harder time understanding the problem arises first with SMF in stead of IPB and /or VBulletin bridges/hacks

The bridges for IPB and vB are in violation (as are IPB and vB themselves when used under the bridges), however, the Joomla! team hasn't pursued anything with them to my knowledge. Of course, only the J! team know for sure. SMF chose to voluntarily comply with the license terms "clarification" and removed the bridge.

3) I'm not even mentioning the huge quantity of plugins/bots/... for joomla that are not GPL. Will we see all of them wither and die one after the other for the very same reason ??

If they choose to comply with the terms, they will have to be licensed as GPL, or re-built so they don't use any part of Joomla!. Many developers are choosing to either re-license or have moved to that other CMS Joomla! forked from. There's a website, http://jcd-a.org/, where many of the commercial developers have gathered. You might be able to find more information there.

3) What will happen with all of the components and extensions that are not GPL licensed , Will the joomla team eventually remove all of them ?

The Joomla! team will need to answer that one. AmyStephen isn't a team member, so she probably won't be able to provide an answer.

[ehanuise]

Thanks for this clarification.

While I find this whole licensing change (in effect moving to strict GPL) to be a real pain, I do understand this is a complex matter, and a move that is forward-looking.

However as a user it also means to me that Joomla's past success was closely related to the quantity and high quality of the third party modules/bots/expansions/... and that this change may put the future of J! 1.5 and on in jeopardy.

caveat emptor, thus 

[AmyStephen]

ehanuise -
Sorry - I missed this.  :P

Have you heard of David Wheeler? He's a well respected contributor in open source. He wrote an article frequently referred, entitled Make Your Open Source Software GPL-Compatible. Or Else. One of the reasons I enjoy Wheeler's work is that he is precise and articulate with assertions, he uses facts - links to licenses, counts, statistics, quotes, etc. Verification is then possible and over time he has been found to be a credible expert for project teams to use for guidance. If you read that article, you will find many reasons it is important for an open source project to use and enforce an open source license.

Your valid concern for a project attracting developers is Wheeler's primary focus for this particular study, and he uses the balance of his report to offer evidence validating this assertion:

"Why a GPL-compatible license? Because if your OSS/FS project isn’t GPL-compatible, there’s a significant risk that you’ll fail to receive enough support from other developers to sustain your project."

In particular, I recommend the section entitled 3. Other projects show GPL compatibility important, where Wheeler states: "several large, high-profile OSS/FS projects have undergone painful changes to make themselves GPL-compatible" and then he lists projects including Python, vim, Mozilla, Zope, Apache, Wine, Alfresco.

This is also a good post by Rob Schley, Joomla! core team member where he talks about the FOSS ecosystem and sharing source code solutions between projects. Those possibilities are impossible once you start to compromise the project's license. The option to share code with another GPL project is gone. That is a huge loss.

Joomla! is in good company as those are hugely mega-successful open source projects. I believe Joomla!'s continued success will be linked to this license clarification, which, in turn, will further strengthen third party extensions. It is worth noting that the vast majority of Joomla! extensions today are already GPL, or GPL-compatible.

++++

Regarding Joomla!'s plans for compliance, please see the project team's announcement, Open Source Does Matter .... Here's part of their statement:

Here's the plan: first, we clean our own house and bring the Joomla! sites into compliance.  Next, we ask people in the community to voluntarily comply with the license.  At the same time, we try to help people understand what it takes to comply and how they can do it easily.  We believe we're going to get a lot of compliance that way.

So far, that's the entire plan.  No lawsuits, no pogroms, no martyrs. More to the point, no shouting, no demonisation, and no drawing lines between "us" and "them".  It's a big community with many kinds of developers, and we want solutions that will work for everybody.

I believe the Joomla! community will get behind this project and support it well into the future.

+++

Returning to your original question as to why there is no SMF bridge. It is important to understand that this was an SMF decision, and the best way to understand "why" they reached this conclusion is to read their announcement entitled SMF Bridge for Joomla! Discontinued where they published an email exchange they had with Brett Smith, licensing Compliance Engineer for the FSF. The discussion was very broad. Joomla! was never mentioned and Joomla! team members were not involved.

The essence of the question SMF posed to the FSF is as follows (quoting from that text):

Simple diagram:

First Script (GPL) "Glue" Script Second Script

If the glue does have to be GPL (or LGPL), could the second script be then legally licensed under a non-compatible license?

The answer provided by Smith was "No."

There are many licenses that are GPL-compatiable licenses. The SMF license is not compatiable because of restrictions the SMF license places on end users. For example:

Agreement. 1. d. Any Distribution of this Package, whether as a Modified Package or not, requires express written consent from Simple Machines LLC.

That restriction alone fails the first test of an the Open Source Definition.

1. Free Redistribution

The license shall not restrict any party from selling or giving away the software as a component of an aggregate software distribution containing programs from several different sources. The license shall not require a royalty or other fee for such sale.

++++

All of this seems is frustrating to us as end users. Personally, I have urged SMF to adopt one of the many GPL-compatiable licenses available. If they were to do that, no GPL project team would have to grant them authority to violate the terms of the GPL. (And thus risk ability to share code and get the benefits Wheeler mentions.) There are many GPL projects that have SMF bridges - it would benefit each of them if SMF's license were compatiable with the GPL because of the very question SMF and the FSF discussed.

But, I do not get to select SMF's license, nor do I have any influence over Joomla!'s license. The bottom line is SMF is free to license their work as they choose. They are free to build bridges or not to build bridges. Joomla! developers are also free to protect their work as they believe is in the best interest of their project. This is not clear-cut or easy and it is not without challenges to those of us who use this fabulous software.

In this particular case, it is more heartbreaking given the long term friendship and value provided by the combined software.

There are ways to bridge the software environments without breaking the terms of either license. Those methods were discussed in the FSF and SMF exchange. However, it is more challenging to connect proprietary code to an open source environment than it is to connect code that shares the same license terms.  Maybe someone will use these methods to innovate a solution between the two packages.

There is a bridge being beta tested for Joomla! and phpBB3, all three GPL software solutions. SMF continues to offer a number of bridges for other CMS environments we can freely choose from. Further, one can use SMF in a stand-alone environment without integrating to a CMS, just like this forum does. We are not without our choices.

With respect,
Amy

[motokochan]

In particular, I recommend the section entitled 3. Other projects show GPL compatibility important, where Wheeler states: "several large, high-profile OSS/FS projects have undergone painful changes to make themselves GPL-compatible" and then he lists projects including Python, vim, Mozilla, Zope, Apache, Wine, Alfresco.

Actually, that is a little misleading, at least with respect to a few of the projects you mention.

The Apache License 2.0 is only compatible with GPL v3, and only because of changes made in GPL v3 and some agreements made in what certain parts meant.

The license for Wine was previously the X11 license (which is GPL-compatible), but was changed in 2002 to LGPL. There was never any kind of pain in being GPL compatible, the project always has been.

I don't know the histories of the other projects well enough to comment on their licenses.

Returning to your original question as to why there is no SMF bridge. It is important to understand that this was an SMF decision, and the best way to understand "why" they reached this conclusion is to read their announcement entitled SMF Bridge for Joomla! Discontinued where they published an email exchange they had with Brett Smith, licensing Compliance Engineer for the FSF. The discussion was very broad. Joomla! was never mentioned and Joomla! team members were not involved.

After that exchange was published, we were contacted by a member of the core Joomla! team. We then discussed how to best make our bridge work so that we wouldn't violate the project's license. After a bit, it was determined that to do so would require a significant rewrite of how the bridge worked and would severely reduce the functionality of it as to make it almost useless.

All of this seems is frustrating to us as end users. Personally, I have urged SMF to adopt one of the many GPL-compatiable licenses available. If they were to do that, no GPL project team would have to grant them authority to violate the terms of the GPL. (And thus risk ability to share code and get the benefits Wheeler mentions.) There are many GPL projects that have SMF bridges - it would benefit each of them if SMF's license were compatiable with the GPL because of the very question SMF and the FSF discussed.

Agreed that it is frustrating to the end users. Isn't it always that way when the guidelines everyone thought existed are suddenly announced as wrong and the rules are changed completely? As for the license change, there are good reasons for why SMF is licensed the way it is, and no amount of outside pushing is likely to change it. In fact, I can honestly say that this little action on Joomla!'s part has made many of the team members very suspicious of the GPL and they are very against moving that way, even if they weren't before.

There are ways to bridge the software environments without breaking the terms of either license. Those methods were discussed in the FSF and SMF exchange. However, it is more challenging to connect proprietary code to an open source environment than it is to connect code that shares the same license terms.  Maybe someone will use these methods to innovate a solution between the two packages.

People are welcome to investigate how to make a legal Joomla!-SMF bridge.

Further, one can use SMF in a stand-alone environment without integrating to a CMS, just like this forum does. We are not without our choices.

Indeed. Not everything is ideal for everyone, and choices are a great thing to have.

[AmyStephen]

Thank you motokochan.

All the best,
Amy

[motokochan]

Actually, that is a little misleading, at least with respect to a few of the projects you mention.

Re-reading the post, I made a small mistake. Those weren't items you put in, they were in the article. Sorry for the confusion.

I still, however, think some of my points stand. From the article, the Apache 2.0 license was an aim to be more compatible in general. I don't think the main goal was GPL-compatibility, even if the article makes that assertion. As for the whole old BSD license thing, I do think the move was more a practicality issue. The advertising clause in the old BSD license was awfully difficult to work with, especially for code in embedded devices. I actually didn't know that the ancient Wine code was under the old BSD, actually.


My personal opinion currently is that the GPL isn't really an ideal license for programs built from a scripting language. The definitions between certain types of code just aren't nearly as clear, and it makes things harder to work with.

[AmyStephen]

I do appreciate that, Motokochan. I am careful and deliberate with statements on licensing. I nearly always link to source documents because I am a learner, not an expert, and my goal is to offer information to help others make informed decisions.

The one conclusion I have reached is that, in the end, this is not any different than anything else. It comes down to respect and choice. In this case, respect for copyright holders to make decisions about their work, and within those boundaries, we have many excellent choices.

All the best,
Amy

[arekanderu]

Personally i find unacceptable that something like this is simply stopped one day while hundreds of people are using it. Without warning, without a period of adjustment !

I believe that both Dev Teams (Joomla and SMF) handled the issue very poorly without providing any proper alternatives but simply by leaving everyone to do whatever they think they should do.

[AmyStephen]

arekanderu -

It was unfortunate and frustrating. Is there anything the Joomla! community can do to help you? We will certainly try.

Thanks for sharing your perspective,
Amy

[arekanderu]

Hello Amy,

To be honest your reply sounded like the one which most of the web hosting providers give when things on their servers get destroyed!

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate that you have replied but I do not think that the community should help ME specifically but all the people who now need to replace SMF with Fireboard. If SMF team wants to keep their license then it's their right  but their choice has an impact on the rest of us and it should be taken under serious consideration, not by just talking and whining about SMFs choice but with real solutions like migration tools. I am sure that there are plenty out there with large forums which simply deleting everything and starting from scratch is not an option.

The best thing i believe would be the  FireBoard team to write an official converter in co-ordination with the SMF team since both groups know the in and outs of their software. I do no think that a couple of converters and some proper documentation will take more than 2 weeks of serious work.

Regards,

Alexander

[AmyStephen]

That was uncalled for. I was sincere in my offer to help you, as I am sincere as I help other of my Joomla! community members, day after day after day.

Good luck to you,
Amy

[arekanderu]

I would appreciate it if someone from the development team of Joomla Fireboard OR SMF can reply to this issue which i think considers a lot of people and not only me.

Regards

[gsbe]

I have 2 questions related to this issue I'm still interested in finding answers for:

1) What is this official Joomla forum is going to do? It makes no sense for the official Joomla forum to be running on software that does not work with Joomla!

2) Are there any GPL-friendly forums available for Joomla that offer an SMF converter?

[AmyStephen]

Graham  -

To my knowledge, nothing has been announced regarding your first question. Regarding your second question, it's been mentioned a few times already in this thread that RocketWerx will offer a bridge to phpBB v 3 (it's in first beta right now.) Johan just today blogged about meetings he had with phpBB core developers, while in London.

One could speculate about Joomla!'s future forums, but they would simply be speculating (unless I missed a post). If I remember correctly, Andy said (?) there would be a conversion script available for SMF. But, I recommend you verify that with RocketWerx.

Anyway, that gives you the current scoop on things, as far as I understand them.
Amy

Edit - arekanderu - thank you, sincerely, for modifying that post.  :P

[gsbe]

Amy- thanks for your take on this but honestly I'm hoping that a core member will chime in, perhaps Brad Baker. Is Joomla considering a move away from SMF for the official forum?

[AmyStephen]

Graham -

You might want to PM someone if you are looking for a specific person's answer.

Amy

[brad]

I have 2 questions related to this issue I'm still interested in finding answers for:

1) What is this official Joomla forum is going to do? It makes no sense for the official Joomla forum to be running on software that does not work with Joomla!

2) Are there any GPL-friendly forums available for Joomla that offer an SMF converter?

Here it goes:

1) phpbb3 here we come... one day.. it will happen.

2) phpbb3 will

There, I have said it here.. although I have said it elsewhere already :P

[arekanderu]

Brad, may i ask why Joomla team will prefer to use phpbb3 than Fireboard? Don't you think that creates questions like "why the official Joomla forum does not use their own software?"

[Kindred]

Personally i find unacceptable that something like this is simply stopped one day while hundreds of people are using it. Without warning, without a period of adjustment !

I believe that both Dev Teams (Joomla and SMF) handled the issue very poorly without providing any proper alternatives but simply by leaving everyone to do whatever they think they should do.

Just to chime in briefly...  there was a warning... the Joomla team announced the license interpretation. It was several weeks before SMF officially discontinued the bridge.
And SMF did offer several alternatives...

[arekanderu]

Hello Kindred,

Thanks for your input on this. I have read a couple of big threads at the SMF forum regarding this but unfortunately i didn't locate any posts which talk in details about alternatives/solutions. Can you please give me a quick link of the topic which you are referring to?

Regarding the warning, maybe they did, maybe the did not in time. Or maybe nobody wanted to believe that no proper work around would be found. What i do know is that solutions  regarding migration are poor (or even non existent) and i find myself stuck with 10.000 Members, 100.000 posts and a Joomla installation with deprecated SMF Bridge! I am very close in starting writing my own converter, it will not be the first time, but this is definitely not something that i should be doing but people which are involved with the development of these projects!

Furthermore, the Joomla Forum Admin said (2 posts above) that IF they change Forum s/w they are going to use phpBB3.....now that makes me wonder....WHY? If the "why" is unanswered i can not start writing the converter because it might be a waste of time. Even if it takes me only 2-3 days to write a basic converter i still need to invest my time on this. Even if there was an official converter something like this still make me wonder if converting to Fireboard is going to be stupid move after all after the post Brad made (is there an official comparison topic by the way regarding the +/- of Fireboard and phpBB ? )

So, you see Kindred, me (and i am sure others as well) are now stuck on how to act due to lack of information. I am a great supporter of Joomla and SMF but i also like to keep my users happy (which keep them visiting my site ) and have 0 support about "my account does not work" due to incompatibilities of combining the latest Joomla versions and SMF .

1. Why J! Fireboard dev team does not make an announcement regarding the conversion? Is there going to be one ? If yes, when, if not, why?
2. Why Joomla Forum team is thinking in converting to phpbb3 instead of their own forum s/w ?

My apologies if i sound "raw" or offensive but i am really not. I have logic questions for logic people. Decisions must be made and the correct (and official) information are needed in order to do so.

[gsbe]

arekanderu -
The open-source community has been in this boat many times. We are always having to change/upgrade/modify software for our sites, be they small or large. Generally, this has been considered part of the adventure! 

I'd ask that everyone speak considerately towards members of the Joomla core team. I specifically asked Brad to chime in on this because he is, as you say, the Forum Admin. I appreciated his insight into the matter of moving forward with a GPL-friendly forum software for the official Joomla forum. Brad has a long history of heavy involvement with the project dating back to the Mambo days. His expertise on forum software is highly regarded and if you've seen the statistics he and the Rochen team have provided us with over the past few years I think you'll come to understand that the Joomla forum is one of largest SMF forums in existence running on highly-customized servers.

As a result, it will be quite a job to migrate this forum to any other software platform. Because the Joomla team has made such a strong commitment to using GPL-friendly software, I assumed that someone was thinking about a new solution for the Joomla forum and that person was likely to be Brad. I'm not sure its our business to question why he's chosen PHPBB3 as a viable solution but I trust his judgment and ability to assess forum software's viability for large-scale applications.

I can try to answer your questions:

1) Ask the Fireboard development team at their website: http://www.bestofjoomla.com/
2) Joomla core development focuses on Joomla, not building forum software. There are many other teams of qualified open-source developers that enjoy working with forum software....let's leave them to it!

I appreciate your positions because I am also an admin of various websites that are using the Joomla/SMF combination. Let's try to work together to find a good alternative to SMF that will work with Joomla and not focus on the immediate down-sides. Talking about it here on the Joomla forum is the best way for us to gather information about alternatives and get a pool of people like us that need a solution working on it together.

Best wishes...

[fulltilt]

I have 2 questions related to this issue I'm still interested in finding answers for:

1) What is this official Joomla forum is going to do? It makes no sense for the official Joomla forum to be running on software that does not work with Joomla!

What makes no sense ? Joomla & SMF have never been bridged on this site, so the bridging problems are a non-issue (on this site anyway)

[brad]

Brad, may i ask why Joomla team will prefer to use phpbb3 than Fireboard? Don't you think that creates questions like "why the official Joomla forum does not use their own software?"

Fireboard would not be able to handle the loads. I've tested it.


There will also be a smf-phpb3 converter, I promise you. Also a phpbb3-Joomla bridge: http://www.rocketwerx.com/joomla/extens ... ge-phpbb3/ for those that want to bridge.

[brad]

Also, see: http://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopi ... 5&t=589439

[Livebox]

It is all so Simple :P

When you want to use Joomla! best choice for this moment is HPPbb (with an Bridge)

When you want to use SMF then your best choice is Mambo with the Simple Machines Bridge.

For me it is the conversion to Mambo in the near future. I’m not a  big fan off PHPbb

[AmyStephen]

I’m not a  big fan off PHPbb

Completely off topic, I realize, but this is such an odd signature for you, given what you just said!

.
http://Joomlabridge.org ----Dutch and English SMF/PHPbb Bridge Support for Joomla! and Mambo -----
.

Anyway, your point is a good one. There is choice! 

Amy

[Livebox]

One of the main reasons I prefer SMF above PHPbb is. That SMF had the functions what I was searching for an free Forum Board.

One of the main reasons that I chows for SMF in conjunction with J! is that there where two Bridges that where easy to Install. And that making upgrading of J! and SMF simple. Also there are no Template changes needed.

The PHPbb has more core hacks then Simple Machines Bridge. This is what making upgrading of SMF and PHPbb much harder then the SMF bridges. Also templates are needing some modifications before the bridge is working. The installation is not fully automatic and can be made in de extension but have to be made in the PHP files directly.

And they overall support for the SMF Bridges was bigger in the past then for the PHPbb bridges.

Ortios has a lot of experience developing the bridge for SMF and he has established to make an bridge for Mambo that is even working better then the J! version.

And what I prefer to use for my self has nothing to do with what we Support.  Every one has his own opion what he or she likes or dislikes. This does not mean that he or she can not help others with solving there problems with this

So Please let the Members decide what the want to use. The have to decide first what the prefer. Do the prefer J! above SMF or otherwise? Then they can make a decision what the going to implement on there website.
J! with PHPbb and the Bridge
Mambo with SMF and with the Bridge
Or even the Joomlahacks Bridge (this one is updated for J! 1.0.13, there is not coming an Bridge for J! 1.5 or for SMF 2.0)

[AmyStephen]

To the best of my knowledge, the Joomla! v 1.5 and phpBB3 bridge does *not* hack core for either application.

In terms of support, I have great confidence in the Joomla! and phpBB combination. There is an enormous, friendly, enthusiastic and welcoming Joomla! and phpBB community who will support those who choose that path. (And, of course, people will freely make their choice and should be encouraged to look at all options available!)

Just looking at the Joomla! stats - each and every day in the Joomla! forums, there are nearly 200 new forum users, 300 new topics, and 1,500 posts. That's where the support will come from - from people. There is no sign of slow down and Joomla! v 1.5 has not even been released yet. The future is bright.

Keep the faith! Joomla! is heading in the right direction. Time will demonstrate that. This is not to suggest other options are not valid for other people. There are many choices and that is always good.

Cheers!
Amy

[Livebox]

I’m not want the discussion all ready said what I want. The member has first to make the choice what the prefer above what is it SMF above J! or is it J! above SMF. When he or she has made his choice then can take a look @ the possible option.

It is not what is better etc but what the member prefers. So we all have to respect the choices off every one. Also when the want to migrate to Mambo with SMF in conjunction with the Simple Machines Brdige.

Think that this thread is not about what is better but what are the options for now and in the near future.

@ this moment is seems that there is only PHPbb. No there is more and the members have to make there own choices what the are going to use. So when you inform ppl please inform them with the most possible info and not only with that there is only an Bridge for PHPbb.


The Joomlahacks can be download for the time being and works with J! 1.0.13 There is not coming an update for J! 1.5 or for SMF 2.0

There is an option to use Mambo with the SMF bridge

And there is an option to use J! with PHPbb

Also there are Forum Board components for Joomla!

And there is even an vBulletin Bridge for J!

And there are some other Bridges for J! also

My last 50 cent for this thread.
Everything is all ready said The Simplemachies Bridge is discontinued and not distributed any more.